New Dutch anti-tobacco laws hit Coffeeshops :no:

[mriko]

U.S:Marijuana Is In, Tobacco Is Out Under Netherlands' Smoking Ban

Martijn van der Starre

Bloomberg.com

Wednesday 25 Jun 2008
June 20 (Bloomberg) -- Starting July 1, marijuana will be the only leaf that can be smoked in public places in the Netherlands. Cannabis devotees aren't celebrating.

Local pot smokers, who usually cut joints with tobacco, and owners of the ``coffee shops'' where they are allowed to light up will have to change their habits when the nation implements the indoor tobacco ban. Puffing a pure marijuana cigarette in public will still be permitted; smoking one with tobacco will merit coffee shop owners a 300-euro ($466) fine for the first offense and 2,400 euros for a fourth.

``Every customer will have to learn how to smoke pure,'' said Robert Kempen, co-owner of The NooN and Mellow Yellow in Amsterdam, which sell marijuana and hashish. The rule makes him ``sick to death,'' he said, rolling himself a joint.

Coffee-shop proprietors say the ban will put some of them out of business as smokers stay away. The nation's 720 outlets that serve marijuana smokers generate a large portion of their revenue from selling drinks, food and rolling papers to their patrons. Dutch sales of cannabis alone totaled 1.2 billion euros ($1.86 billion) in 2001, according to the most recent figures available from the nation's statistics bureau.

To permit tobacco smoking, shops will have to build separate, unstaffed rooms, and many say they don't have the space or money to do so. Others are investing in water pipes and $400 vaporizers, initially intended to aid people with lung problems inhale medicine, to help smokers light up without tobacco.

`Times Have Changed'

``It's a bad year for marijuana smokers,'' said Gwydion Hydref while smoking in Coffee Shop Johnny. The Welshman works for Wickedtrips, a company that offers vacation packages, including a ```no holds barred' weekender'' to Amsterdam ahead of the smoking ban. ``Times have changed.''

The Netherlands follows other European countries in banning tobacco. Ireland was the first country in the region to forbid smoking in public places in 2004. Sweden, Italy, Malta, France, Belgium, Finland, Lithuania, Portugal and England and others have followed, with full or partial restrictions.

The Dutch ban, which prohibits tobacco smoking in all public places of employment to protect workers' health, is only for tobacco and makes no change to marijuana policy, said Saskia Hommes, a spokeswoman for Dutch Health MinisterAb Klink. The government will have to see if the law is enforceable, she said.

The Netherlands decriminalized the use of marijuana in 1976, though it stopped short of fully legalizing the drug because international treaties prohibited it from doing so. The country's first coffee shop, named after Donovan's song ``Mellow Yellow,'' had opened its doors four years earlier.

`Bloody Awful'

Government policy toward the shops has become less lenient in recent years, with the number dropping by 39 percent in a decade as authorities cracked down on sale to young people and revoked the licenses of owners who commit crimes.

Still, the shops have devoted patrons who are upset about the latest development.

The ban is ``bloody awful,'' said Nima Gani, a musician smoking at The NooN. Gani plans to stop visiting The NooN and smoke his ``Blueberry'' marijuana and tobacco joints on the street.``I feel like my freedom is getting smaller and smaller,'' he said.

To enforce the new policy, the government has more than doubled its number of food and consumer product inspectors to 200, said Bob Kiel, a spokesman for the Food and Consumer Product Safety Authority. The agents will make unannounced visits to bars, restaurants and cafes, as well as coffee shops. There are no guidelines to help inspectors distinguish between a mixed joint and a pure one, he said.

Hashish and Joints

Coffee shops sell everything from pre-rolled joints for 3.50 euros each to hashish for as much as 18 euros a gram, said Mark Jacobsen, chairman of the Amsterdam Association of Cannabis Retailers. The ban will make it even harder for the shops to stay in business as visitors and revenue will drop, said Jacobsen, who is building a wall to divide The Rookies, a shop he co-owns.

``Sales will definitely fall,'' said Rida Oulad, who works behind the counter at Ibiza in Amsterdam. ``Why would you go to a coffee shop where you can't smoke and the only remaining activities are sitting and watching television?''

Gani, for one, isn't happy about the changes. He says he can't smoke at his real home because his mother would hit him ``over the head with a pan.''

Still, he has no plans to stop rolling joints mixed with tobacco: ``Smoking pure grates my throat.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aYnxvXq30UZs&refer=europe

Damn, that's pretty bad news. Now people are gonna just buy and leave to smoke home. No more new meetings & socializing around a good joint. That's fucking insane !


Irie !

 

[twisted treez]

naw , it just means that people wont be smoking joints with tobacco in it and whats wrong with that , if someone gives you a joint with tabbaco in the united states no one would smoke with you , how can you know what the herb taste like> im glad of this been off ciggerets myself for 6 years and ill say i dont cough up black shit and i toke alot of herb, i have also showed people how to say no to tobacco and those people still smoke herb and live a healthy life

 

[sog army]

fucking awesome.. now i dont have to smell nasty tobbacco smoke when enjoying some cannabis

 

[Suby]

I'm an ex cig smoker and I think this is going too far, if they tolerate weed then smokes should be fine.
I love our herb but alot of people mix tobacco with weed...ALOT.
The main concern is weed is just a few steps behind being outlawed too.

 

[Koroz]

I never understood this. In America either.

Its a choice. You don't work, or eat/drink in a place that allows smoking and fails to have a "No Smoking" area. It's your choice if you want to work in a bar. You don't like the fact you have to inhale smoke? Don't be a waitress in a bar.

Im sure some people will say "But waitresses have no other choice" yes they do, there is hundred of thousands of other career choices you can make, so make it.

It has become a world where people have to be hand held and protected from themselves instead of people taking responsibility and changing their own environments.

 

[accessndx]

As one of the perceptive coffee shop owners intimated: let the Dutch keep cracking down on prostitution, smoking, etc. Let's see how much it impacts the tourist industry in subtle and large ways.....then see the laws shift in the opposite direction again. Lesson here is that money talks. For years the Dutch community has become dependent upon tourism and income generated from Marjiuana sales (directly and indirectly). When Americans or Europeans with alot of money to spend stop dropping in because they're enforcing laws like the Third Reich ressurected......that will cause a cascade of events that lead to ultimately less money.
Do you think people are just going to be heading to Amsterdam for wheels of cheese and wooden shoes? I think we can all get by with pictures of windmills, I don't need to travel to see them.
Imagine what Atlantic City or Las Vegas would be without gambling: desolate mad-max-esque beyond thunderdome probably.....nobody would be interested in going to either one of those places without that central interest.
So the Dutch are cutting off their nose to spite their faces....let's see how long that lasts when the purse strings get tight.
I bet they start issuing travel brochures with pop-up book boobs and bongs that come out when you open it.

On another note; I agree...if you want to work in an establishment that allows smoke...that's pretty much it. The govt. doesn't have to bail you out....go work at a supermarket...not an f-ing bar dummy. And as far as smokers in general: if you smoke marijuana....you can be a bit tolerant if someone's smoking tobacco near you for a small while. We're not going to pretend it's healthy, but you aren't spending 24 hours a day in a room filled with tobacco....so get your joint....pure or not...smoke it....move on....
Ultimately this is going to be a hard law to enforce.

 

[SweetNightmare]

I like it actually... I'm a non tobacco smoker and I really don't understand how someone would enjoy smoking spliffs regularly... The smoke is nice but it ruins the taste...

 

[mriko]

Do you think people are just going to be heading to Amsterdam for wheels of cheese and wooden shoes?

They are much more than you think !

As one of the perceptive coffee shop owners intimated: let the Dutch keep cracking down on prostitution, smoking, etc. Let's see how much it impacts the tourist industry in subtle and large ways..

There is tourism and tourism and it's another problem than that one here. The ban on tobacco is going to affect the coffeeshop owners a lot, it's direct blow to the scene. It's not going to prevent anyone to buy smoke, but some coffeeshop won'tbe able to face it, as some traditionnal French bar-tabac did because of tobacco ban in public places. People come less often, just to buy cigs then leave and eventually the place close because of not enough customers. Could be same in some villages' single coffeeshop.
Hell, it's customary to smoke with tobacco in NL, you don't change that in a snap !

Irie!

 

[Koroz]

I like it actually... I'm a non tobacco smoker and I really don't understand how someone would enjoy smoking spliffs regularly... The smoke is nice but it ruins the taste...

So you like removing someones right that does like it?

Where does it stop? Should non marijuana smokers then ban you from being able to smoke in a coffee shop because they think it might be something they don't like while drinking their tea or eating brownies??

 

[DemonsITN]

Who the hell smokes 'bacco with herb anyway?

That would get your ass kicked where I live.

 

[Tokermon]

most europeans use tobacco as it seems to enrich the flavour of the herb and gives a fuller more rounded smoke. i admit to using a few strands of rolling tobacco to give it that edge. it just burns better and smoother etc. but i don't want this to go into a debate about which is better.

I'm a bit concerned about the use of hash as it is traditionally smoked and is most convenient with bit of tobacco. you'd either have to mix it with other weed then the flavour and high will get mixed up or you'll have to use a pipe or bong. most people prefer joints, i hate using bongs. carrying one around or using a communal one would be shit.

 

[twisted treez]

wel lets see if they wanted to ban mmj then they would have that this passed, you can still smoke mixed at your house even if it is banned in your house there are plenty of americans that have to deal with this issue but with mmj and now in the us it id close to no public smoking at all. at least you got mmj cant people smoke a mixed joint outside , ive not yet been to the dam bbut dont yall have outside decks?

 

[GanjaBaba]

So whats the deal down there in Amsterdam? Im flying in next week with my good friend. We both like to blend tobacco with our smoke, so there are some concerns. None of us smokes cigarettes. My friend is hoping that in most coofeeshops they will just tell us to keep our tobacco hidden but will let us bled it in our joints. I my self am not that optimistic... I guess i can manage to smoke some tastefull weed without tobacco, altough im gonna feel like somethings missing (used to smoke cigarettes for 8 years, but quit 6 years ago. Im still addicted to nicotine...)
Here comes my real problem: what about hash? I never liked to smoke it raw. Never... And i get quality weed at home, so the hash smoking is something i really look forwar to when visiting Amsterdam. I´ve also tryed volcano (borrowed from a friend for a couple of weeks), but thats just not my thing...
I guess we can smoke on terraces that some of the coffeeshops has? Or is that also banned?

I would really appriciate if someone there could tell something about this issue now that the somking ban is in effect.

Sorry for my not so perfect english and typos (got alot of some greenish stuff jammin my laptops keyboard...)


Sweet memories...

 

[ojd]

hi ganjababa
from what ive been told people are having the spliffs outside of the coffeshop by the doors or terraces(like the pubs in the uk)
i also read somewhere that there will be inspectors making random visits and will fine coffeshops who break the law

i also read somewhere some coffshops will have a seperate area for tobaco smokers where staff will not go in
rookies was 1 of them in leidersplein

im looking to go sometime this month with friend who smokes spliffs so will put a report up on his experience

i give up tobaco last year for the smoking ban but had given up smoking cigaretes a good 8 years before
i also had the same worrys with hash joints as i really love hash
but i have a litle bong(dampkring bong)that i only use for hash and it is so smooth just like a hashspliff used to be
you should really try and kick the tobaco especialy as you dont even smoke them(cigaretes)
it took me a couple of weeks to really get used to smoking pure but after that it was the best thing ive done in a long time
i used to smoke 12-20 spliffs a day
now im down to 5-10
also when you smoke with tobaco you only a get a weakish buzz as i found the nicoten ended my buzz by calling me for a next spliff after about 30-60 mins
i honestly can roll the exact same amount of weed in a joint and be buzzing for upto 4 hours and more
i dont wake n bake anymore unless im with friends
i used to have like 3-4 spliffs before 12
now none unless im with friends
really all you tobaco smokers try and give it up
you will not regret it i promise

peace

 

[twisted treez]

get a 2 litter and cut the bottom out , put hash on scissors light it then take the 2 liter put mouth on the small side and inhale , or just smoke a joint laced with hash i mean why not thats what they do in the US, try it you just break up treez put hash in ;ittle bals very small then roll and enjoi

 

[GanjaBaba]

I`ve tryed most of the fancy smoking methods back in the days. I just dont like to smoke hash (or weed) raw and mixing hash with weed is something i rather not do. I think it mixes the tastes in a bad way, unlike when mixed whit tobacco.
And yes, i know tobacco is useless and dangerous, but inhaling very hot cannabis smoke isn`t healthy either.

used to smoke 12-20 spliffs a day
now im down to 5-10
also when you smoke with tobaco you only a get a weakish buzz as i found the nicoten ended my buzz by calling me for a next spliff after about 30-60 mins
i honestly can roll the exact same amount of weed in a joint and be buzzing for upto 4 hours and more
i dont wake n bake anymore unless im with friends
i used to have like 3-4 spliffs before 12
now none unless im with friends
really all you tobaco smokers try and give it up
you will not regret it i promise

This sounds very interesting (alltough not my point here). I know i should quit mixing tobacco to my weed, as i too have a craving for wake n´bake, but if I have work/other things to do, then i wont smoke until 4pm or later. The part about nicoutine calling you for a nother spliff is logical too. I usually am as stoned as i want to be, but still something makes me want to smoke more and more. This is a minor problem for me, as i might stay up way too late thinkin "one more joint. one more..." I smoke one and then the tought is back in my head. This can go on for 2-4 hours
But quitting tobacco comes from whitin. One day i will quit, but it won`t be in Amsterdam, and will not including hash smoking. Im gonna have my tobacco with that no matter what happens. Its so seldom i get hash here (sure, u can get the scandinavian version of "soapbar") so i think the tobacco is ok it these cases.

About the smoking ban. I think they should have made some exceptions for the small coffeeshops. We have the same law here (but no legal weed) and I know atleast one small bar has a permit to smoke inside. I think they invested in powerful ventilation a few years back, so maby thats the reason. Other places here have a ventilated room to smoke in. This law has been really harsh on some barkeepers. ~6-7 years ago they started enforcing this law here. First step was, that restaurants had to have atleast 50% smokefree area. It was kinda funny to go to a bar when the other half had 0-4 persons and the other side was totally full of customers. They also obligated barkeepers to install powerfull ventilation so that smoke wont get behind the counter. I bet these changes was not that cheap to make. And 5 years later all of the investments are useless as you cant smoke inside - period.

I think totally banning something cant be a good thing. There is offcourse the other side of the coin in this matter too. A friend working at a bar has lowerd her smoking from 20-30 ciggs/day to 5-10 ciggs/day. She used to have a cigg in her hands/on the ashtray all day long when working.

But my point was not about quitting tobacco, rather I´d like to hear some "on-the-spot" excperienses? If someone somewhere in Netherland could tell what they seen and think about this now that the smoking ban is in effect there.