Ductless mini split a/c users

[smurfin'herb]

Hello, I have a 11x15' bedroom for flower that i need to cool. I will be running 7x600watters in this room and they will be air cooled. The summer temps in my area dont go above 90 degrees much (4-10 days per summer if that), and winter temps can get down to 5 degrees at times.
Ive been looking for a ductless mini split for my situation, and need some suggestions (how many btu's and what brand unit). They look to be much more efficient in term of btu's produced per watt, than window units. I understand that something needs to be bought in order for the outside unit to work in low temps though...I also understand that these can come with multiple indoor units, and since im on this point, i will let you know that I will also need to cool my veg room which is an 8x10' room with 2 1k's watters in it. So if anyone could reccomend a package with two indoor units that will suit my needs for those two rooms, then great! I can get a window a/c (if need be) for veg no prob, but the flower window is too small for the size of the window unit i would need (18,000btu has been reccomended), so i at least need a mini-split setup suggestion for the flower room. suggestions......?

 

[isit4.20yet]

Central A/C ?

 

[bongorilla]

you really need a hvac vacuum pump and guages to hook those up right.
after using a mini split i dont think Id grow indoors without one.
super quiet. an 18k should be enough for 4200watts and a burner.
I like to overshoot by a big margin. you cant go wrong with a 2 ton. but a 1 1/2 ton should be fine.

mini split

 

[nUt_jOb]

hello smurfin..

You are on the right track! I like the mini split systems and have one myself. The most accurate thing I can say about them is that "you get what you pay for". I purchased a cheapo e...bay special and it didn't last a year... $675 down the shitter plus all the time I took to select and install it. Last time I was looking at them there was only one tried and true brand sold in the states.. SANYO I believe it was... but now I see Friedrich, Carrier, and mitsubishi making them though only time will tell if their mini-split models are reliable.

For your situation.. consider one of mitsubishis 3 zone mini-splits.. put two in the flower room and one in the veg room. They come as 3x 9k BTU so you would have your 18k BTU in the flower room.. and more evenly distributed than by just one unit. Also may I recommend you consider upsizing to 12k per each unit.. since you can find inverterless designs that can run at any speed instead of just on and off like a window unit.. they will be more efficient than a maxed out set of 9ks.. also when your ready to man up and add some thousand watters to the flowering room the cooling capacity will already be available.. :smile:

Also the vaccume pump is pretty easy to come by.. its finding the fitting to connect to the lines.. UGH!!!! and that ridiculously expensive freon.. but they come should come precharged with that.

 

[clowntown]

Higher indoor unit to outdoor unit ratio = higher EER?

 

[nUt_jOb]

I didn't say that! I said running the next size up not at full capacity all the time is better for the mini-splits with the inverterless design. You can read what the manufacturers say about it if you scour the fine print for the true efficiency curves.

Also as opposed to using two giant indoor units for two rooms, only one of which to its potential.. I would consider 3 smaller units.. with 165 sq ft to cover and that many lights I would put one on each end of the flowering room.

Plus consider the inverterless (a.k.a. DC inverter) units will run at whatever speed they need to run at.. whether one, two or all three indoor units are running. This keeps the SEER ratings reasonable.. check them out.

They also have a rated normal operating capacity which is ~ 20% lower than their rated maximum output (advertised output). I have come to understand with mini-splits you want to pay more attention to the normal operating capacity rating.

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

it says it comes with install kit, can i install this myself ?? (possibly with help)
http://www.ac-world.com/proddetail.php?prod=Ramsond35V65&cat=9

 

[green_tea]

With split ACs...

Arent any of you worried about someone noticing its running in the middle of winter?

I'm kind of curious where some of you are putting the compressor & radiator unit part

I would think outside would NOT be ideal if you are in an area that gets a snowy winter.

any suggestions with that regard?

(of course the ideal SUPER STEALTH way is to go with a water cooled AC unit + large pool; but then your talking close to 10k for the AC unit and probably another 10k for the pool!)

 

[smurfin'herb]

it says it comes with install kit, can i install this myself ?? (possibly with help)
http://www.ac-world.com/proddetail.php?prod=Ramsond35V65&cat=9

Ha! i was lookin at the same site and unit! i was also wondering if those units would be easier to install yourself than most. I wonder if they have that inverter...? and a winter package for the outdoor unit...?

 

[bongorilla]

With split ACs...

Arent any of you worried about someone noticing its running in the middle of winter?

I'm kind of curious where some of you are putting the compressor & radiator unit part

I would think outside would NOT be ideal if you are in an area that gets a snowy winter.

any suggestions with that regard?

(of course the ideal SUPER STEALTH way is to go with a water cooled AC unit + large pool; but then your talking close to 10k for the AC unit and probably another 10k for the pool!)

actually those units are so quiet on the outside you really cant hear it. Its a whole different world from a window unit. also the outdoor unit
can be placed up to 50' away with added freon and line set.

__________________________________________________

it says it comes with install kit, can i install this myself ?? (possibly with help)
http://www.ac-world.com/proddetail....sond35V65&cat=9

if you are mechanically inclined. the way to go is a vacuum pump and guages. if you lose any freon you can ruin the compressor. if there is any air or moisture in the lines kiss it goodbye. there is a warranty if it is installed by a liscensed contractor.
I know a cat who installed one without a vacuum pump and purged the lines by opening the hi side and tap the shrader valve untill you see freon. the only problem was there was a leak in the line set and he lost freon. freon is hard to get and you have to be liscensed. if installing by yourself DONT forget to put oil on the flair fittings! that is the only gasket you got and especially if running a unit with r410! r410 operates at much higher pressure than r22. not to many people are qualified to work on r410 units.
A mr. slim is so quiet and has invertor technology and you cant tell if the outside unit is on unless you see the fan moving..

good luck.

 

[nUt_jOb]

bongorilla is on the money IMO.

If you can handle big boy projects you can handle the mini-splits. Don't expect detailed step by step instructions and do do as much homework as possible on them. When I did mine I used only a vacuum pump that was $12 at the local made-in-china tool mart.. The instructions called for drawing a vacuum of at least ___" Hg for a minimum of __minutes to dry the line before opening the valves and filling with the freon in the unit. I just ran the vac pump for a while..

The freon (410A) is not hard to get and you DO NOT need a license. Check out koolit.net (DISCOUNT REFRIGERANTS, INC.) and you will see its actually cheaper than R12 now! It is correct that you would have a hard time finding any installer that is experienced with it. Do your homework and learn about the refrigeration cycle and what makes R410 different.

Not to scare you but I am HVAC certified.. though in this case I still had much to learn about R410 and mini split systems since none of that was part of the training program I went through to get certified.

 

[billbob]

smurfin'herb - both mitsubishi and sanyo are great, reliable units. Both need to have the lines vacummed after install. The one at ac-world does not need the vacumm according to ac-world. Don't know about the brand. DC inverter is the way to go. Also bigger is better and more efficient. you will also want the ac to be a low ambient model so it will work outside when the temps are low. both mitsubishi and sanyo offer this in some models.

It is all simple to install, hardest part is putting the flare ends on tight with no leaks.

 

[Hydropimp]

What about just installing a central a/c?

But the best thing to have is a water cooled a/c and a pool or well

 

[nUt_jOb]

Hydropimp.. benefits of mini-splits over central A/Cs are that they are already charged with freon which anybody can buy and install them selfs (i.e. no contractors req).. they are much quieter and more efficient.. they are mail-orderable and are delivered by fedex/ups.. the outside unit is slim and quiet which makes it easier to conceal in an urban environment.. They will (if DC inverter) run at reduced speed/noise during less demanding periods when other peoples central units are not running.. exc..

I would AVOID any unit which does not claim the lines need to be evacuated... Simple basic knowledge of what water and air can do to any freon system says thats a bad idea. It does not take much air at all in a refrigerant system to really kill its efficiency/lifespan. When I see a claim like that having done my years as an HVAC tech suggests that would be a system to stay away from! Vac pumps are cheap.. not more than 20 bucks (for the ones that run on an air compressor).. this is not a step in the installation that I would skip.

For all those claiming water cooling by means of a pool.. Lets take a reality check on that one.. All any air conditioner does is TRANSFER heat from one place to another. Normal air cooled a/c units transfer heat to the air outside which blows away and stays relatively constant due to the huge air volume of the great outdoors. If you water cool A/C a 10 light grow.. roughly 50k BTU or so.. you will be transfering 50K BTU constantly to a fixed volume of water (the pool).

Note that pool heaters (the ones designed to heat a whole pool up in the middle of winter within an hour or so) are around 125k-250k BTU. By these numbers alone its clear the pool may not even handle a full light cycle. Then understand that once you heat the pool with water cooled A/C the heat has no where to go! Its like taking a window unit and sticking the outside part into another room that has no vents.. it will heat the other room up and cool the one you want cool to a point.. then it cant do its job anymore.

Water coolers will work best if connected to a FLOWING stream or a big pond/lake. It is true that the pool will experience thermal losses to ambient and the ground but it wont work fast enough. If you lived in an area of low humidity you could use fountains to promote evaporative cooling however that rig would look so obvious..

Oh and don't forget your friendly neighborhood flyovers would be easily able to see (even possibly by satellite) that your pool is 20 degrees hotter than all of the other pools in the neighborhood.. or at least the local deviant children who climb your fence for a midnight swim. That guy they busted a while back in Dade county had his whole pool covered with floating shit to try and hide the heat signature.

Most of my experience is with industrial water cooled units (real job).. They consist of the same setup as you would imagine with a swimming pool (basically) except they have one key additional feature beyond the large pool of water.. a COOLING TOWER! I mean come on.. if you could cool a larger grow with a swimming pool than why doesn't every pool owner cool their house with it?

Lets end this MYTH!!

 

[clowntown]

Link to Dade county pool cooler?

This was as much as I could find:

When a Miami-Dade County doctor decided to plant a tree in his back yard not long ago, he dug a hole.

He dug deeper. And then a huge jolt of electricity knocked him onto his back.

The cause: His neighbors had needed extra power to operate their massive indoor marijuana farm, so they ran a pirate power line under his back yard.

...

In the case of the Miami doctor's neighbors, they needed a massive air-conditioning apparatus to regulate their 1,400 plants. To cool the system, they ran an underground pipe to the swimming pool behind their rented two-story $350,000 house."

A pool-sized hot tub year round might not be too bad

What do the EER ratings on a water-cooled unit look like? Just a ballpark figure for comparison.

 

[jaw]

i agree and disagree with nutjob. if you gotta large grow room i think a pool with a heat exchanger would be a great supplemental cooling device used along side air conditioning. once that pool reaches summertime temps of mid 80's i would imagine the heat exchanger wouldnt be so effecient, also a room with a flop wouldnt work that well i think you would want a cycle for the pool to cool off. but there is absolutly no way law enforment would bust a grow becasue of a pool temp(so confident in that i would invite the police to come swim in my growroom heated pool. =p ) only in the wintertime would it be strange, and thats when you could be cooling with outside air anyways.

 

[PonicalChillin]

ya really,

Whats suspicious with having a heated pool year round?

I heated pool in the middle of winter would be a benefit. Keep it open year round.

__

So anyone have any info on the Mr. Slim models?
I have a friend considering a M-Series 22,200 BTUM-Series 22,200 BTU .

The specs say its indoor noise dba is 34/40/49, but doesn't list the outdoor.
Anyone have more details on how hard these are to install. The install manual calls for special tools like a flare tool for R410A and all kinds of stuff. Are these tools still required if your purchasing a line set kit with preflared ends?

Any quality mini-splits with precharged lines? I'm weary of those ebay kits.

 

[smurfin'herb]

Water cooled ac's are better than ductless mini splits..? How much water do they use?
Anyway, Ok i need someone to reccomend a Specific unit/units, that will suit my needs. It needs to able to operate in 5 degree outdoor temps, and it needs to be inverterless. It would be nice to have a total of 2 or 3 separate indoor units for veg and flower. I need 18k btu in flower, and around 10k btu on veg.

Also, does anyone know where i can find instructions or video of how to vaccuum these things and get them set up? and where i can get the fitting to connect the lines?

hydropimp, the house already has central a/c installed. But if i used it for a grow in 1/4 of the house, it would kick on and off way too frequently i was told.....

 

[nUt_jOb]

Clown - thats is the story I was talking about.. no clue what happened to the original unabridged version.

"Unlike air cooled units, which lose in the range of 25 percent of their rated efficiency at temperatures exceeding 100° F relative to their SEER rating, the efficiency of an evaporative water cooled unit has a minimal drop."

"Above 95° F, a typical air cooled condenser draws approximately an additional 10% power for each 10° F increase in temperature. In contrast, an evaporative cooled condenser draws about the same power over a wide range of outdoor temperatures."

"

All systems have a Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) rating which is based on an outside temperature of 82°F. On a hot day (90°F and up), air cooled systems rated at 13 on the SEER scale operate below 11 SEER, and as the temperature rises, they perform at even lower SEER.

When it’s hot, your need for cooling increases, but the air cooled system loses both capacity and efficiency. The Thermal~Flow Water Cooled Air Conditioner system loses neither as the temperature rises. In fact, on extremely hot days, the evaporative water cooled unit actually improves in efficiency and capacity. "

 

[clowntown]

Great quick SEER 101, nut job!