The Real History Of Northern Lights, Written By The Guys Who Did It

[CharlesU Farley]

I may be wrong but...didn't Nevil say that he sold It "pure"...(NL1) and customers complained about yield?

To my knowledge, the term "purest indica" has never been uttered by Nevil. I can't immediately find the quote right now, but you're correct about NL1 and NL2 not yielding near as much as #5, and at that time Neville had to be all about production.

"The market has changed since my day. Medical cannabis is more prominent. If you are looking for a particular effect, yield is not as important. If you say, forget about yield, I could blow you away, but few do."
N

"I've bred a lot of Indica full bloods. The Hash Plant x NL1 F1 was amazingly strong, but you had to sacrifice a bit of yield and further inbreeding lead back to the rudimentary indica archetype.

I'm pretty sure that the original indica mutation had a resinous but leafy bud with almost no yield. The best indica dominant types were 7/8ths Indica and 1/8th Sativa"

" I used NL1 males for the HP and NL2 males for the G13. None of the back crosses ever produced a plant as good as the mother, although the NL5 came closest. Vigour was lost in all cases."
N

" The NL2 needed some fresh blood as the F5 wasn't as good as the F4. I had planned to take the Hybrid back to NL2 and as the NL2 had already been released I expected others would do the same. I must be living in my own world as it doesn't appear that anyone saw the connection that seemed obvious to me."

If these posts do not clearly indicate how extensively Nevil worked NL _after_ he got the originals from NL Seattle Greg, I don't know what else I could say to convince people it's not the original _numbers_ that made it so special, it was the _combination_ that Nevil developed _after_ he received the genetic material from NL Seattle Greg.

Does that mean It was a "pure indica" strain or a pure indica hybrid
I'm a bit confused right now lol

" NL1 had coarser dark green leaves, was more inclined to grow one main bud with little branching, the stem was very sturdy. It had a more narcotic high. The buds were more nugget like, The resin went yellow more quickly and the stalked glands were not as pronounced as with the NL5. It was a more Indica dominant plant."
N

That description and the photo of the "Steve Murphy's Purest Indica" just does not compute, at least to me.

And didn't SamS say that Nevil's Mazar was a "waste"?

I have only read _one_ side of the He said / She said saga because Sam wasn't involved in NL but given the rage and vitriol of _both_ parties, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I learned a long time ago never to pick sides if you don't have a dog in the fight, just watch the fight and learn something if you can.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

I didn't know until a couple days ago that Seattle Greg lives pretty close to me. My buddy(in the pic) throws a cannabis party evert year in Puna and Greg came this year, we gonna shit down and smoke together here soon. 71 and still growing and smoking.
View attachment 18996141

I like your avatar, John was one of the few, pure originals. Would love to know the _true_, untold story of the synthetic psilocybin that took him down.

But just like with NL, most of the participants are now dead, the ones that are still alive are old as shit and have an age-appropriate memory... which is a nice way of saying they can't remember shit, as far as intricate detail of shit that happened over 40 years ago.

Here are the quotes that reveal the _man_, NL Seattle Greg:


"I am a United States Marine who walked the valley of death 100 times before I was 19 years old at places we called unhappy valley and the street without joy"

"Northern Lights was bred for COMBAT VETERANS! From 1970 to the time I brought the 11 strains to Nevil the only people on the long waiting list for my Cannabis were my girlfriends and the COMBAT VETERANS I ROLLED WITH! So I think is safe to conclude with Northern Lights Seed the breeding was by Combat Veterans as medicine for the problems we faced after coming home as young men who were forged and tempered in Vietnam."

The numbers on Northern Lights don't mean shit, this is what does!

 

[Raco]

"I put the NL1 out there as a pure strain. I wasn't popular. People would tell me, "give me the pure strains", but if it cost them 10% of their yield they would complain, well try 50%.
The pure indica hybrids were more popular. NL1 x HP and NL1 x G13 were the best. At least people could use the word pure (very popular). But they were good!

I expect that a lot of people holding what they believe to be pure indicas today, would find, if the truth be known, that the sire line traces back to NL1.
N."

 

[CannaT]

Got a few questions for the NL experts:
1) what's the male in Sensi's G13 x Hashplant?
HP x NL1 or HP x NL2?
Was the F1 backcrossed to the HP cut?

2) are the ABG13 and PG13 the same cut (or seedline) ?

3) In terms of.GCA, how do you compare Skunk1 vs. NL?

Thx

NL 2

 

[heirloomganja]

Genetics : Northern Lights

sativa : 10%

indica : 90%

Afghan x Thai

THC Range : 17.5% - 18.0%

 

[Raco]

Thx you all for the inputs

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Today, it's Nevil's day for philosophy in general, breeding techniques, with a few things specific to NL. These are in no particular order, just as I'm reading/scanning all the cut and pastes that I've tagged with Nevil.

This is gonna be practical/technical information that you/I can use right _now_ in cannabis development projects. The first post has to do with feminized seed and is part of a much larger discussion that I'm only going to put one post in because it's specific to NL. This discussion on feminization and hermaphrodites has been _astounding_ to read in its entirety. At some point in the future, I may do a post specifically about all of these posts, where he discusses the feminization process.

I am so very glad my version of NL, which I know for a fact came from the _original_ #5 clone pistillate plant and a #2 staminate plant that was easy to reproduce via seed, is free from all that sexual manipulation bullshit.

I know I know I'm an old fuck, but I _firmly_ believe that's why I never have trouble with hermies. None of that twisted, sick fuck, chemical shit was used in the creation of what _I'm_ working with... and as Martha Stewart says, that's a _good_ thing.

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Nevil
Breeder
Aug 15, 2010
Add bookmark
#11
"Just a few thoughts on feminised seed.

I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.

I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.

There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.

There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results."
N.

Nevil said:
Let me explain my thoughts a little further Kopite, re feminised seeds.
The best fem seeds would not be selfed! If I wanted to produce fems, I'd start with a true "lady" Say NL5. This would be represented by XX. The latent hermaphrodite I would choose would be one that doesn't show signs of masculinity under normal circumstances, but can be induced to produce some pollen when treated with hormones. Nevertheless, this parent would be represented by XX'. The X' represent the sex chromosome that carrying the latent hermaphrodite gene.
Therefore XX x XX' will give you 50% XX' and 50% XX(true females).
A female plant carrying a latent hermaphrodite gene when selfed is represented by the following. XX' x XX'. This will give you 50% XX', 25% XX (true female) and 25% X'X' ( strongly hermaphroditic)..
I know that this is an over simplification because of the various types and degrees of hermaphroditism, but in broad lines it will hold true to what ever degree the hermaphroditism is displayed.

NL5 was not sterile, the world is awash with it's progeny. It could be induced to produce male flowers, but the pollen sacks were empty. A true female.

This was my position when I entered this debate. People wanted to point out that my symbol XX' for a, shall we say intersex plant. Was not scientific enough and it was suggested that XXm would be more correct. From the material Darwin cites, it would seem that XXY would be more appropriate.

I would suggest that what we are really dealing with is X(XY) as the Y cannot be passed on separately, otherwise we would be getting true males from fem seed (no one seems to be suggesting that). From a lay persons perspective I think my symbols were clearer, but as I have been trying to say, the issue is not the symbol but the meaning behind it.

I refer you to the position I have taken earlier. Is this not in essence where we have arrived now?
N.

Sep 22, 2010
Add bookmark
#685
"I'm at odds with the fact it can produce balls etc shows it has the mech to do so, I see the empty male flowers on the GA3 treated NL5 female as something akin to the penis on the female hyena. It looks like the real thing, but it is just hormone induced decoration.

Two recent reports support Weismann's hypothesis; faster evolutionary adaptation was shown in a sexual strain than in an asexual strain of yeast (Goddard et al., 2005 ), and a reduction of deleterious mutations was detected in a sexually reproducing species compared to an asexually reproducing species of water fleas (Paland and Lynch, 2006 )
And this would seem to support the position that Hempy and I have taken."
N.

Aug 29, 2010
Add bookmark
#171
"Listen mate, if you take yourself too seriously people will take the piss out of you! You have a common problem. You've grown a batch of dope, you rolled a joint and as you got about half way through it, the realisation hit you........ I'm a fucking genius!
You'll get over it."
N.


"When ever a highly desirable characteristic pops up, it pays to back cross it to both parents to determine which one passed on the genes or whether it was the combination that produced the effect. In order to reinforce a certain trait from an individual female plant, I would try various combinations within the family as well as outcrossing it to different males of the same type outside the family. The crossing of opposite types is more appealing when looking for a blend of characteristics in order to create something different than both parents.
N."

Jan 15, 2011
Add bookmark
#584
"Generally you need to test males to discover their worth. It's not that they are better. They are just harder to find. Even reversing the males sex will only give you so much info. Yield is the hardest to determine without testing. Using a group of males is often the best ppl can do when there is no time or space to test them."
N.
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I could go on, ad infinitum, with more interesting nuggets like these, but they're not really specific to NL, so those will be the subject of another thread specifically about Nevil not NL.

The amount of info I've got on Hz that he did _after_ he got the seeds from Sam is simply astounding, and I skim over and don't even read it.

It's just not where my _passion_ is directed.

But, with all the side crossing, back crossing, feminization techniques, etc. being discussed with Hz, I kind of feel like the backcountry West Virginia sister fuckers have somehow merged with the San Francisco twisted, sick fuck transexual crowd, to create some kind of fucking genetic _monster_.

 

[Rgd]

believe that's why I never have trouble with hermies. None of that twisted, sick fuck, chemical shit was used in the creation of what

you have alot of good info in your posts ..this is not one of them

you never had trouble with hermis because you didn’t use hermi stock

way back when....imho there were way more varieties that hermied

..I am old guy too but I have tried both ways

non fem for 50 yrs and reverals for 20

bro its..hermi genetics that make hermi genetics...


love yer passion

 

[CharlesU Farley]

you have alot of good info in your posts ..this is not one of them

It's okay to have differring opinions.

you never had trouble with hermis because you didn’t use hermi stock

That was the point I was trying to make.

way back when....imho there were way more varieties that hermied

I'm confused by this, you think there were more hermes back in the '90s than there are now?

Again, and this is strictly anecdotal from me scanning various cannabis fora stuff since 2012, the numbers of hermaphrodites just were not a big deal back in the 90s, at least as I remember?

I was fairly astounded, and quite frankly disappointed, that he used chemical, sexual manipulation on cannabis plants. While I can certainly understand it, given the total and complete unavailability of him sourcing a #5 plant that was as special as his _original_, but he manipulated the shit out of Hz as well.

..I am old guy too but I have tried both ways

non fem for 50 yrs and reverals for 20

bro its..hermi genetics that make hermi genetics...

On that we can definitely agree! I can understand trying to use stress to induce the hermaphroditic condition if you have no other choice, but that chemical/hormonal shit just gives me the willies.

love yer passion

It rubs a lot of people the wrong way, unfortunately, and I can certainly understand why.

I know it's hard for people to believe but my motives are pure, I'm only interested in _facts_, from the people who actually did it, and as everybody should know by now, I'm not _selling_ a single fucking thing.

 

[Raco]

A few days ago I found pics that I thought were lost forever.
This is a Spanish Blaze (f) x Moños Rojos colombian (m)

50% Colombian
25% Deep Chunk
12.5% Blueberry
12.5% Killer Queen = AG13 x C99 ...G13/NL1 x C99 ...which has a lot of NL5 in it afaik

Good to know that the plant ^ had both NL1 and NL5 in it

 

[Tynehead Tom]

no skin in this game. Never grew any Northern Lights from seed other than crosses I was doing in the late 90's with the NL#5 clone only. I received the clone from the bikers in about 95 and held it right up to 2005, as it was a major commercial crop cut at the time. I can tell you all with 100% certainty that the NL5 carried very minor and often missed, intersex expression. Always tucked tightly into a lower bud and rarely discovered. Very few seeds were ever found as well so my guess is the interesex flowers are forming too late to pollinate anything or the pollen is mostly sterile. So it would not surprise me at all to see intersex traits in random F2s.

this is an interesting thread for sure.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Almost forgot this little gem, saved it in the "seed slinger and pollen chunker" category, not the Nevil?section:

"If you bought seeds from The Seed Bank. Say NL5 x HzC. You know that this is a Hybrid made from the Haze Brothers male line and the Northern lights female line. You know this because I didn't change the name Haze or Northern Lights. These were the names given to me when I bought the seed.

If you bought Early Pearl x Skunk#1, the same applies. As far as I'm concerned you can do whatever you want with these seeds, except change history. If you want to inbreed Nl5Hz and put F2 seeds on the market, why not you paid for them. You didn't by Chi P variabilis and call it NL5Hz, you paid full price. If are saying that you have bought Seed Bank seed and tell the truth about the ancestry and what you have done (F2), I don't have a problem with you.

If you made a 4 way with the EPxSK1 and produce excellent hybrids well the same applies. You may in effect be doing advertising for me or you might get doing what people thought I should have done or people might think that the SK1 one was the biggest influence and chase that up in the future. It's all out there and people can draw there own conclusions. But if you say that you have developed these strains from your own collection, then you're a liar and a cheat."
N.

 

[Mimpi Manis]

Almost forgot this little gem, saved it in the "seed slinger and pollen chunker" category, not the Nevil?section:

"If you bought seeds from The Seed Bank. Say NL5 x HzC. You know that this is a Hybrid made from the Haze Brothers male line and the Northern lights female line. You know this because I didn't change the name Haze or Northern Lights. These were the names given to me when I bought the seed.

If you bought Early Pearl x Skunk#1, the same applies. As far as I'm concerned you can do whatever you want with these seeds, except change history. If you want to inbreed Nl5Hz and put F2 seeds on the market, why not you paid for them. You didn't by Chi P variabilis and call it NL5Hz, you paid full price. If are saying that you have bought Seed Bank seed and tell the truth about the ancestry and what you have done (F2), I don't have a problem with you.

If you made a 4 way with the EPxSK1 and produce excellent hybrids well the same applies. You may in effect be doing advertising for me or you might get doing what people thought I should have done or people might think that the SK1 one was the biggest influence and chase that up in the future. It's all out there and people can draw there own conclusions. But if you say that you have developed these strains from your own collection, then you're a liar and a cheat."
N.

Kaboom!

 

[Rgd]

I was fairly astounded, and quite frankly disappointed, that he used chemical, sexual manipulation on cannabis plants.

I don't know who you are referencing but it doesn’t matter

selfing imho about the best [and only]way to stay in the zone of special clones..

yeh I understand the unnaturalness of it

but imho every single great non fem line from the past is not as good as the original f1’s released

and those are non fems..

I'm confused by this, you think there were more hermes back in the '90s than there are now?

yes also because back then there were no fems..

also there is sfa around for non fems now...before ,they were all non fem...

bigger potential hermi gene pool..

It's okay to have differring opinions

thank you

 

[GainesvilleGreen]

I've had some really great NL on the streets back in the day. Of course, not as knowledgeable about the genetics as you guys. Clearly..lol
But I've grown it many times. From peakseedsbc, bodhi NL#5, and several from Todd.
All have been great smokes, but the body buzz from bodhi's NL#5 was incredible. Best overall high imo.
I did like Todd's grape pheno NL5... sweet grapes on the smell.

Cheers,
love this thread, sorry for the interruption CF.

 

[Happy Times]

Okay, this is going to be one massive post and I may have to break it into two for organization and legibility purposes. I have many different sources of information from disparate sources, so I'm not going to be able to provide the links from the original posts these came from, like I usually do. Not only because they're dead now (links, and in this case the person I'm quoting), but I got some information that is not available to the general public via Google's cache or the Wayback Machine on archive.org.

You're just going to have to trust me that I have no axe to grind with this post, except for when I specifically mention axe to grind. I'm not trying to make one person look good and another bad, I'm just posting the information that I've been able to find, that was actually _written_ by Nevil. My initial and still primary focus was NL, but in doing this massively deep dive by expanding the criteria to just cannabis and not specifically NL, I've been able to get a whole bunch of additional info not only on NL, but in developing and enhancing cannabis in general.

This information is simply fucking invaluable. At least to somebody like me who knows what to do with it and isn't worried about making money, selling seeds, or impressing everybody with the latest, dripping/glistening bud shot.

Many thanks and _respect_ to my Usenet buds, led by VTAMmer, who sourced out a lot of this information, that I _never_ could have found on my own. Can't help you out with 0-day release software that you can turn into warez like I used to <vbseg>, but y'all know if you ever need any inside medical advice, I'm _always_ here.

With that out of the way, here's Nevil's writings, with some other topics besides NL because they're just so damn insightful and useful. And I'm not going to put quotes around them, because every single letter of what I'm going to post was typed by him.

As far as I'm concerned, especially for all those folks who are selling specific _number_ versions of NL, most especially #5, this first post tells me all I need to know. If Neville couldn't source #5 after he got out of jail, and Romeo grew out all the seeds and smoked them, how is some dumbass grower up in Montana going to say he's got number _five_ and he's breeding with it? Thank God the link to this post is still live.

And if you know anything about NLSG's Gestapo like environment he had to grow under (Steve Murphy's life was totally and completely _fucked_ by OGM) if you think he was able to keep specific records about specific numbers and then place all of those seeds in specific numbered categories, and be able to transport them around, and then be able to recall what he did 40 plus years later.... hopefully you'll understand my skepticism about people hawking specific numbers of NL, who have nothing to gain... but money... and no honor or integrity.
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Jan 3, 2011

nevil said:

i had a back crossed line of nl5, 8 back crosses. After i got out of jail they were gone. I don't know what happened to them. Marcel probably sold rimmeo some of them. It was the closest to nl5 in seed form. It's another of my projects that i never got to finish. It stil irks me.
N.

thank you nev for verifiying that for me yes marcel sold them to me there were the best i wish i still had som e i loved the strain and comend the work you put into it
rimmeo

One of the unchangeable laws of creation is, "What you put out is what
you get back". The only way to get everything I wanted was to give everything I had. It was also a blow for freedom. I was putting seeds into peoples hands that could change their lives. If any of you chucked in a shit job and grew a lot of dope and made some money, then the plan worked. If it relieved your suffering in any way, then I have been blessed. If any of you grew any of my strains and became Spiritually Enhanced and want to share my crown, then that's OK too. If any of you feel that your lives are better because of what I've done, then I am twice blessed.
For some of you, more self empowerment lead to greater battles, that was my path too. So this was the long answer to the question of whether I regret handing out pure strains. The short answer is ; "Not for one moment, for I am the master of my fate and I am the captain of my soul".


When I started all this, I did it with the idea of making myself, in a sense, redundant. There was no precedent and I didn't know what forces would be countered against me or how long my run would last.
Northern Lights, especially NL5, was the cornerstone of the indoor growing industry. By putting NL5x2 out there, I was giving the game away. I thought hard about this and I had to decide on what was best for me or what was best for everyone else. I decided that what was best for everyone would ultimately be best for me. I needn't have worried. Everyone was asleep.

I went to the US to pick up the original US NL5. It wasn't in the same league as mine. The NL boys from the US came to me for my NL5 offspring. It was much better than the original.

I met the Indian to obtain the US NL5 cutting two years after getting the seeds. This was the only NL cutting that I ever got. If I ever sold seeds from this US cut, it wasn't for long. It was already superseded before it got it.

I did a series of back crosses with NL5, HP and G13. I did this because I didn't have siblings to use. NL5 was a sport. The brothers couldn't deliver.
I used a Ruderalis for the NL5, picking the male carrying the R factor, which gave pollen at the fourth internode. Four generations a year. The 5th generation, ulimately was the best. I should have gone brother to sister at that point, but I thought it would continue to get better. I went to 8 backcrosses. What I learned was that after gen 4, the results were more dependant on the individual male, than the number of back crosses.

I used NL1 males for the HP and NL2 males for the G13. None of the back crosses ever produced a plant as good as the mother, although the NL5 came closest. Vigour was lost in all cases.

The Northern Lights#1 was a pure strain from the pacific N.W. of America. It had nothing to do with Ortega lines initially, although I did cross them.

NL 1 was pretty special, it was all Indica. Good pure Indica strains were pretty hard to find in those days. I didn't hold it back, I sold it pure.

Dr Atomics stuff looks like NL2x5. I don't see much Thai in it. I probably perpetuated the Thai/NL5 myth. The U.S. NL5 had Thai in it and I repeated the description given to me. Although mine was from the same family, it never showed any Thai characteristics.

Mine were from that plant (US NL5) and all of the brothers and sisters seemed typical of the line, except one. I expect it was a throwback. It's hard to glean information about breeding from underground sources, but I can assure you that I've spent a lot of time analysing the results of the original NL lines. My NL5 seemed to have characteristics of NL2 and NL1, but had completely dropped any Thai influence from the mother. If you have bred enough plants containing indica, you will have seen some of these throwback indicas. They are not all great, but the short indica like 8 week anomaly will pop up.


Follow your passion, it's the road to greatness

Good breeders are keen observers who are capable of recognising quality and trends within populations. Scientists are not responsible for most of the breeds of plants and animals. Passionate individuals are and most top breeders are not particularly well educated. I've been hanging around breeders and clubs all my life and most of the advances in breeding I've seen have come from fanatics working with small populations.


The NL strains were grown and bred under lights in small spaces. These were among the most advanced indoor lines on the planet. Small growers, like many of you created them. Good work can be done with small numbers.

NL1 had coarser dark green leaves, was more inclined to grow one main bud with little branching, the stem was very sturdy. It had a more narcotic high. The buds were more nugget like, The resin went yellow more quickly and the stalked glands were not as pronounced as with the NL5. It was a more Indica dominant plant.

Look on Todd's (every time I type that, I think of Lisa Loopner _saying_ it) website and see if his purest indica looks like this is described????


With backcrossing you would never be able to eliminate the recessives...
My experience with back-crossing is that from the fourth back-cross onward, it's all about the individual male and the number of bXs is irrelevant. If you are not making progress, then what is being reflected is the mothers shortcomings. Further progress can only occur through the elimination of undesirable genes through sibling matings.

When I say NL5 did not cross well with ML, I mean it didn't fizz. I didn't find that many indica/indica crosses did. Indica to indica/sativa did. As a breeder who puts a product on the market, you find you have to deal with a few issues. What people say they want and what they really want. All those people who now seem to be against 1:1 matings would be the first to hammer you in public if they didn't get what they want in one packet of seeds. Remember brocolli man?
Predictability and genetic diversity do not go hand in hand. So you let them belittle you for doing 1:1 matings and they post pictures of the best buds in the world.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this is not an ax of mine to grind, it's more like a little needle.

But I always used to debate/argue with Vic High over the delicate nature of DJ's Blueberry, and the fact that the _only_ thing that was really special about it was that it smelled like a fucking blueberry. Nobody ever talked about that kind of _high_ it gave you, it was difficult to cultivate, clone, etc. and a delicate, fragile cannabis plant is the _last_ thing that I would ever want to invest my time and effort in.

So now without further ado, this is Nevil's opinion of DJ Short. :

...but the moment someone lies about the pedigree, mostly for purposes of self aggrandisement, I can't take them seriously any more. Or their work. agreedThe original Bubblegum was pretty good, I thought it was BB.SKxNL5.SK. Isn't the Blueberry descended from that? Who knows with fantasy pedigrees, but I'd take it to Critical Mass, which also contained the BB.SK, which is where the bubblegum flavours came from. If you create something great, good luck trying to work out what made it click.

I've seen a few of D.J.Shorts writings. The man possesses an extremely fertile imagination. It reminds me of some intuitive/automatic writing I've seen. Very creative, but not scientific.

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That's it for now, as if that's not enough.

When the AI "spiders" consume all of the info contained in _this_ thread a year or two from now, at least they're going to know the _real_ actual, fucking history of Northern Lights. And not some made up, bullshit story just to sell seeds or to promote celebrity infatuation, or more likely with Millennials, pagan idolatry.

And speaking of axes to grind, I certainly to the fuck cannot _wait_ until Elmer Budd shows up here on ICM, again. He sandbagged my ass on Mr Nice, was trying to bait me with this following response to the same post I made here on ICM, and it took _tremendous_ amounts of self-control not to technically and linguistically eviscerate him and have the fetid contents of his bowels spill over all over the fucking floor of this forum.

But I respect Shantibaba too much so I restrained myself.

We'll see how he responds to me now that I'm willing to post. This was his response to my initial post in 2018, that I linked to in my sig tag.

"I can`t say I think you enhanced the structure , yield , calyx to leaf ratio .
Maybe acclimatized it to your region ? For some generations . But then went back under lights .

The colour and clawing of the leaves in your pics speak to me of over feeding ?


It all seems a little deceptive to me . 1st you post a novel about your grows and say you won`t reply . Then reply ...
Talk about not selling the line ,but encouraging your kids to sell it .


Try to piggy back on Owsley and Hunter . No shame . Emphasis in italics added by _me_, because that's the part that fucking piss me off.


Thanks for sharin

EB ."

Please Mr Budd, come back and let's have a nice, friendly conversation.

On a much lighter note, next up will be Sensi's seed banks forum, and that has some interesting info as well. From info I just now received, _I_ was _wrong_ when I guessed about the Archivist on the Mr Nice forum being Ben Dronker's son. Unless he's mentally fucked up and speaks in the third person singular, the Archivist and Forum Admin on the Sensi Seed Bank is not Ben's son. But you can tell by reading his replies, especially to JeSSe, that this guy had been at Sensi for a very, very long time.


Mods, edit what you have to but this is what I've got to say.

“The original Bubblegum was pretty good, I thought it was BB.SKxNL5.SK. Isn't the Blueberry descended from that? Who knows with fantasy pedigrees, but I'd take it to Critical Mass, which also contained the BB.SK, which is where the bubblegum flavours came from.”

Could I ask what BB is in the above? Blueberry is what comes to mind but doesn’t seem to make sense in the context

 

[Dime]

It's okay to have differring opinions.

That was the point I was trying to make.


I'm confused by this, you think there were more hermes back in the '90s than there are now?

Again, and this is strictly anecdotal from me scanning various cannabis fora stuff since 2012, the numbers of hermaphrodites just were not a big deal back in the 90s, at least as I remember?

I was fairly astounded, and quite frankly disappointed, that he used chemical, sexual manipulation on cannabis plants. While I can certainly understand it, given the total and complete unavailability of him sourcing a #5 plant that was as special as his _original_, but he manipulated the shit out of Hz as well.


On that we can definitely agree! I can understand trying to use stress to induce the hermaphroditic condition if you have no other choice, but that chemical/hormonal shit just gives me the willies.


It rubs a lot of people the wrong way, unfortunately, and I can certainly understand why.

I know it's hard for people to believe but my motives are pure, I'm only interested in _facts_, from the people who actually did it, and as everybody should know by now, I'm not _selling_ a single fucking thing.

Personally I have heard more reports of hermies in the last decade than anytime prior. I also have noticed it is harder to keep males from staying in veg these days ,plants could take a beating and had much better stability,we would intentionally stress the shit out of them to ensure their stability and you couldn't unload any weed with seeds,now they just seem more sensitive and when it happens the grower gets blamed or it's just the way it is instead of questioning the source. I blame the fem scene because the only time I have had shemales is from fem seeds and I haven't used them since, it could be just me though. When I started hermies were really frowned upon because it was illegal and people got really pissed due to the risk and time involved and stability was a priority and hermies could end a seed supplier in no time but seeds were way more expensive in those days so maybe it's an acceptable trade off.Today people don't seem to care as much and some even use known intersex to make seeds. I remember $300 or more for 10 seeds and you had to find an address because you didn't dare send them to the place you were growing so the last thing you wanted was hermies. .

 

[Tynehead Tom]

I started learning to grow commercially in 89 , being mentored by bikers that came about by way of me dating his daughter. Anyways by 95 I was set up in my own 5 bedroom house that was heavily modified for growing. My "job" was to take seeds or clones they gave me, grow them out in 5 x 1000w rooms and find the production keepers. I went thru thousands of seeds and dozens and dozens of clone onlies, sifting for the cream for the commercial rooms. I found lots of hermies and mutants across all kinds of seeds and clones brought into the grow.
I had to quit growing full time in 05 and resumed in 2015. I've been pounding thru seeds and clone only's trying to catch up and experience all these named cultivars and seed lines that I missed while the weed scene exploded in my 10 year abscence. I see the same stuff I saw back then with no real change in frequency. What I can do though is assume that certain lines are going to have plants that express intersex like sour diesel, GG4, Blueberry, chem d and I could go on.
Not slagging DJ short's work as I have nothing but respect but we found hermies in the 1998 delta 9 collection blueberry release, mutations and intersex in the flo line and also in spice of life's sweet tooth. I think we also found a hermie female in the original Shishkaberry from the seeds we bought in 98. I have detailed notes from all those years going back to 95.
So I don't think it's necessarily worse than "before"

 

[Mimpi Manis]

I started learning to grow commercially in 89 , being mentored by bikers that came about by way of me dating his daughter. Anyways by 95 I was set up in my own 5 bedroom house that was heavily modified for growing. My "job" was to take seeds or clones they gave me, grow them out in 5 x 1000w rooms and find the production keepers. I went thru thousands of seeds and dozens and dozens of clone onlies, sifting for the cream for the commercial rooms. I found lots of hermies and mutants across all kinds of seeds and clones brought into the grow.
I had to quit growing full time in 05 and resumed in 2015. I've been pounding thru seeds and clone only's trying to catch up and experience all these named cultivars and seed lines that I missed while the weed scene exploded in my 10 year abscence. I see the same stuff I saw back then with no real change in frequency. What I can do though is assume that certain lines are going to have plants that express intersex like sour diesel, GG4, Blueberry, chem d and I could go on.
Not slagging DJ short's work as I have nothing but respect but we found hermies in the 1998 delta 9 collection blueberry release, mutations and intersex in the flo line and also in spice of life's sweet tooth. I think we also found a hermie female in the original Shishkaberry from the seeds we bought in 98. I have detailed notes from all those years going back to 95.
So I don't think it's necessarily worse than "before"

As a many decade long outdoor grower (medit. climate) with access to decent bred lines in the last 10-12 years, I have come across very little hermie issues with any of the fem lines I came across. (Just lucky?). Including around 60-70 sativa leaning seeds of about six strains from GHS. (Yeh I know - get out the garlic and crosses!). So far very few real hermie action from any of them or others. The only one I came across (from somewhere online) I grafted a very mango smelling GHS SSH onto it. Just to prove I could do it. Not a skerric in those very sativa and other lines from Wally. Somehow that indoor stuff under lights does seem to spark up the anomolies. Management and/or hermie traits... and less to do with the Fem process? Not sure I'd go out on limb on this. 50 years doesn't seem long enough in the game to cast a vote. But one cannot estimate the value of good breeding and observation; that much seems obvious. Based much on the discourse here at least. We're a persnickety bunch of bastards in this game aren't we? Am a big fan of facts, truth and integrity. But I guess some things are already lost to time and memory. Just like the man says.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Could I ask what BB is in the above? Blueberry is what comes to mind but doesn’t seem to make sense in the context

Big Bud.