island_organics
Active member
yeah alright lol.We say that if we see then we believe, but in fact we believe much better than we see. In fact, we see what we believe all the time and occasionally we see what we cannot believe.
pit bulls...
- Thread starter armedoldhippy
- Start date
Years ago we had Grey wolf x chow mix that lived across the alley from us. It's owner had warned us not to approach it if it ever got loose. One day I heard my retriever crying in the yard. When I went out there was a little poodle type dog sliding under the fence. Without hesitation that wolf chow picked it up and set it back down dead. Poor poodle should have listened to Clyde.
Biosystem
Active member
Long post. Skip it if you don't enjoy reading - no offense taken at all.
There's a lot of emotion in this thread, and many unmoving perspectives understandably developed from previous experiences. Some have met many a pit and found none of them to be anything but lovable couch hippos. Others have met many a pit and haven't seen a single one that didn't exhibit menacing behavior to at least some intolerable degree. This is tricky since any kind of outside anecdotal evidence or even collected statistical data (which may or may not be fairly evaluated and/or presented) is only going to be a feather stroke against the impenetrable wall of prior beliefs regarding the breed. This is true for many other topics in life, but few are as emotionally charged as ones in which strangers vehemently argue that to reasonable knowledge (read: their opinion) their beloved companion and dogs like them would never commit violence, or on the flip side, that there should be no reason as to why unsalvageable, single-purpose killing machines should be allowed to walk side by side with innocent citizens, putting them at risk of being maimed or killed. These are hypothetical perspectives of course, though many people do feel those ways for their own reasons.
It is, put simply, undebatable that many animal behaviors are impacted significantly by genetic phenotype although the types of behaviors and the degree to which they are expressed vary from species to species and even lineage. This is true for many strains of organisms despite the fact that many view a strain (in this case, we call them breeds) as featuring homogenous characteristics throughout. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your desired use for the animal, the extent of predisposition for aggression or lack thereof is a phenotypical feature, and has been selected for or against in many breeds (strains) of canine and even lineages WITHIN that strain.
I think a suitable albeit imperfect metaphor is in order. As cannabis growers and enthusiasts, many if not all of us recognize that different strains of cannabis are better suited for different things. Many traits are equally desired across the board, like high yield or resilience to disease. However, there are some traits featured by various strains that could deter someone from reasonably selecting them. If an indoor grower were to wish to cultivate plants that, for example, produced copious quantities of anthocyanin in order to make aesthetically pleasing colors like purples, pinks, etc, they would need to consider which strains have been bred to do so without much needed stimuli like colder night time temperatures or nutritional additives. They could, if they were so inclined, select a strain that CAN turn purple if given extra care like I mentioned OR they could select a strain that is relatively reliable in producing anthocyanin without having to set up additional cooling systems or purchasing nutritional additives.
I say all of that to say this: when choosing a dog breed to care for (or mix if that's your thing), you need to evaluate what you want from them, and make a decision as to how hard you want to potentially have to work to get it from them. Is it POSSIBLE to train a golden retriever to charge across the street and attack your neighbors on sight without command? Yes. Would it be easy-mode? No. Is it POSSIBLE to take the most traditionally aggressive dog breed and raise it to be a teddy bear with a pulse? Yes. Would it be easy? Not as much as it would be with a golden retriever. As someone who has done a considerable amount of research and has worked with hundreds of dogs in both professional and personal capacities, it has been my experience that predisposition to aggression is a known factor. Furthermore genetic research has proven that *predisposition* to aggression (again, amongst a myriad of other behaviors) is a heritable trait amongst species like the one we're discussing. This is irrefutable and needs to be understood by anyone who wishes to seek out and care for a dog. It dictates what they can reasonably expect during the training process and what their odds are of getting what they want from the strain of dog in question after they've matured and their personality has largely crystallized.
Just as many of y'all have had enough encounters to formulate expectations of various breeds, so have I. Out of all of the pit bulls I have worked with, I only met one that was unworthy of breathing, and even he never bit me although I never gave him the chance to which was key. I have also met only one ruined golden retriever, and I struggle to think of how the owners must have warped him to get him to that point. Most of the bite-risk dogs I worked with were between 5-35 lbs (~2-16kg), and it's my observation that despite genetic predisposition towards non-aggression these dogs were given too little discipline because they were treated as though a human baby is treated and not held accountable for poor behavior due to the lack of physical threat they could impose. Again, you can make a "peaceful" breed into a vermin, and the opposite is also true.
Our dog was a mutt misidentified by the shelter. As she grew, I saw morphology far more reminiscent of commonly perceived aggressive breeds rather than what she was offered to us as, and took caution when raising her. Later, genetic testing would reveal that she was in fact a result of two "highly aggressive" breeds. It is fortunate that through good care and proper training, she developed into a dog on par with service-dog temperament and would literally die of abuse before biting a person, dog or cat. She loves killing small rodents and bugs though. I will say that. And if you're thinking I'm saying that every dog needs to be trained like a police dog, that's not my point at all. But you need to watch them when they're young. You've got to catch the first few outbursts of minor aggression (as literally all dogs have when they are reaching adulthood and learning boundaries) and make it crystal clear that that is the ONE behavior that will put them in the ground if they engage in it. Not all specimens take to this training however as their genetics are too far separated from the desired behavior. Consider taking 1,000 African wild dog pups at birth and trying to make them service dogs for blind kids. A handful would make it, I'm sure, but the vast majority would get the grave after biting the hell out of someone during or after training. African dogs are a hell of a jump, but you get the nature of my point.
My dog isn't doing yoga with me or solving puzzles or anything, but she knows recall, she's gentle, quiet, outgoing, completely non-aggressive and craves affection. It's really not hard to get a dog to that point, but you need to do consistent reinforcement and socializing with them while they're young, and you need take into account your ability to raise a dog and to try to pick a breed that sets both you and the dog up for success in the end. And you know what? If you fail, and you end up with a biter, you need to own up to what YOUR actions caused to you, the dog and whoever they attacked and put the dog down for the safety of everyone involved. So seriously. I advise picking wisely.
The fact of the matter is that most people have not and never will equip themselves with the knowledge to properly raise a dog of nearly any breed, and the fact that many dogs alive today aren't biting people is more of a testament to those dogs' breeds and individual base-tempermants than their pathetic upbringing. Many if not most people shouldn't own dogs for this reason. But they do. And that's another discussion. But as to pit bulls? Without training, you're feeding, housing and caring for a lawsuit waiting to happen, or worse - the death of a loved one. With even simple, EASY, moderate training they'll be the best dog you've ever owned and leave you crying hard when it's time for them to pass on.
Just some anonymous person's two cents. Do with it what you will.
There's a lot of emotion in this thread, and many unmoving perspectives understandably developed from previous experiences. Some have met many a pit and found none of them to be anything but lovable couch hippos. Others have met many a pit and haven't seen a single one that didn't exhibit menacing behavior to at least some intolerable degree. This is tricky since any kind of outside anecdotal evidence or even collected statistical data (which may or may not be fairly evaluated and/or presented) is only going to be a feather stroke against the impenetrable wall of prior beliefs regarding the breed. This is true for many other topics in life, but few are as emotionally charged as ones in which strangers vehemently argue that to reasonable knowledge (read: their opinion) their beloved companion and dogs like them would never commit violence, or on the flip side, that there should be no reason as to why unsalvageable, single-purpose killing machines should be allowed to walk side by side with innocent citizens, putting them at risk of being maimed or killed. These are hypothetical perspectives of course, though many people do feel those ways for their own reasons.
It is, put simply, undebatable that many animal behaviors are impacted significantly by genetic phenotype although the types of behaviors and the degree to which they are expressed vary from species to species and even lineage. This is true for many strains of organisms despite the fact that many view a strain (in this case, we call them breeds) as featuring homogenous characteristics throughout. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your desired use for the animal, the extent of predisposition for aggression or lack thereof is a phenotypical feature, and has been selected for or against in many breeds (strains) of canine and even lineages WITHIN that strain.
I think a suitable albeit imperfect metaphor is in order. As cannabis growers and enthusiasts, many if not all of us recognize that different strains of cannabis are better suited for different things. Many traits are equally desired across the board, like high yield or resilience to disease. However, there are some traits featured by various strains that could deter someone from reasonably selecting them. If an indoor grower were to wish to cultivate plants that, for example, produced copious quantities of anthocyanin in order to make aesthetically pleasing colors like purples, pinks, etc, they would need to consider which strains have been bred to do so without much needed stimuli like colder night time temperatures or nutritional additives. They could, if they were so inclined, select a strain that CAN turn purple if given extra care like I mentioned OR they could select a strain that is relatively reliable in producing anthocyanin without having to set up additional cooling systems or purchasing nutritional additives.
I say all of that to say this: when choosing a dog breed to care for (or mix if that's your thing), you need to evaluate what you want from them, and make a decision as to how hard you want to potentially have to work to get it from them. Is it POSSIBLE to train a golden retriever to charge across the street and attack your neighbors on sight without command? Yes. Would it be easy-mode? No. Is it POSSIBLE to take the most traditionally aggressive dog breed and raise it to be a teddy bear with a pulse? Yes. Would it be easy? Not as much as it would be with a golden retriever. As someone who has done a considerable amount of research and has worked with hundreds of dogs in both professional and personal capacities, it has been my experience that predisposition to aggression is a known factor. Furthermore genetic research has proven that *predisposition* to aggression (again, amongst a myriad of other behaviors) is a heritable trait amongst species like the one we're discussing. This is irrefutable and needs to be understood by anyone who wishes to seek out and care for a dog. It dictates what they can reasonably expect during the training process and what their odds are of getting what they want from the strain of dog in question after they've matured and their personality has largely crystallized.
Just as many of y'all have had enough encounters to formulate expectations of various breeds, so have I. Out of all of the pit bulls I have worked with, I only met one that was unworthy of breathing, and even he never bit me although I never gave him the chance to which was key. I have also met only one ruined golden retriever, and I struggle to think of how the owners must have warped him to get him to that point. Most of the bite-risk dogs I worked with were between 5-35 lbs (~2-16kg), and it's my observation that despite genetic predisposition towards non-aggression these dogs were given too little discipline because they were treated as though a human baby is treated and not held accountable for poor behavior due to the lack of physical threat they could impose. Again, you can make a "peaceful" breed into a vermin, and the opposite is also true.
Our dog was a mutt misidentified by the shelter. As she grew, I saw morphology far more reminiscent of commonly perceived aggressive breeds rather than what she was offered to us as, and took caution when raising her. Later, genetic testing would reveal that she was in fact a result of two "highly aggressive" breeds. It is fortunate that through good care and proper training, she developed into a dog on par with service-dog temperament and would literally die of abuse before biting a person, dog or cat. She loves killing small rodents and bugs though. I will say that. And if you're thinking I'm saying that every dog needs to be trained like a police dog, that's not my point at all. But you need to watch them when they're young. You've got to catch the first few outbursts of minor aggression (as literally all dogs have when they are reaching adulthood and learning boundaries) and make it crystal clear that that is the ONE behavior that will put them in the ground if they engage in it. Not all specimens take to this training however as their genetics are too far separated from the desired behavior. Consider taking 1,000 African wild dog pups at birth and trying to make them service dogs for blind kids. A handful would make it, I'm sure, but the vast majority would get the grave after biting the hell out of someone during or after training. African dogs are a hell of a jump, but you get the nature of my point.
My dog isn't doing yoga with me or solving puzzles or anything, but she knows recall, she's gentle, quiet, outgoing, completely non-aggressive and craves affection. It's really not hard to get a dog to that point, but you need to do consistent reinforcement and socializing with them while they're young, and you need take into account your ability to raise a dog and to try to pick a breed that sets both you and the dog up for success in the end. And you know what? If you fail, and you end up with a biter, you need to own up to what YOUR actions caused to you, the dog and whoever they attacked and put the dog down for the safety of everyone involved. So seriously. I advise picking wisely.
The fact of the matter is that most people have not and never will equip themselves with the knowledge to properly raise a dog of nearly any breed, and the fact that many dogs alive today aren't biting people is more of a testament to those dogs' breeds and individual base-tempermants than their pathetic upbringing. Many if not most people shouldn't own dogs for this reason. But they do. And that's another discussion. But as to pit bulls? Without training, you're feeding, housing and caring for a lawsuit waiting to happen, or worse - the death of a loved one. With even simple, EASY, moderate training they'll be the best dog you've ever owned and leave you crying hard when it's time for them to pass on.
Just some anonymous person's two cents. Do with it what you will.
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Ecor1
Active member
People fail to realize that you need to invest time with your charge and then they start to teach you. Pitbulls are not for lazy assed dullards or children. Being lazy or unaware is no different than leaving a loaded gun out in the open. Falls into wrong hands well then you get to pay for your stupidity. Don’t get me wrong the pits and Patty’s are my faves but at my age one smart easy going fella is all I need. The problem is there are some types that are happy go lucky until somebody lets their dog go and it decides it is going to put the hurt on your pit and the minute he sinks the teeth into your boy the switch turns on and then Fido is screaming like crazy and now you have an angry dog that’s ok tearing into something ie another dog when it gets annoyed. Just matter of time when the police come and put your dog down or you can’t have them around other dogs for his switch has been turned. You can’t keep him in your one room apartment anymore for when you go on walks he will want to tear into something for he is ON! I have seen this too many times and that’s why I hate the peddlers just looking for a buck. Now you have a dog that you don’t understand and have to have it put down or send it to someone that will take them and some pass them onto dog fighters if they aren’t euthanized so they can fight in the square box where they usually end up dead or shot because they aren’t game. Hopefully I scared some sense into someone that doesn’t know this breed and doesn’t have a plan when things go south.
But you say, I am different and I can handle it, yeah you sure can cupcake. Sorry so negative but these dogs are special and require your full attention and be prepared to get your heart broken one way or another.
a long read, but well worth the time/trouble to get your perspective. thanks...
island_organics
Active member
@Biosystem great post brother, and you’re right when you’re talking about the expectation when taking on a strong dog breed. You can’t expect all of them to be a sweet teddy bear and that’d be naive, but that mistake gets made often enough so we get to read about the horror stories where a very strong animal destroys another dog or child.
As i said in one of my previous posts, it’s a big responsibility to take on a breed that is capable of inflicting a lot of damage quickly. A lot of people aren’t ready for the intensity that a pitbull has when its prey drive kicks in, or it attacks to protect. That’s where some people freeze and have no control and this is why you need to know exactly what you’re getting into before you take on the responsibility.
I’m well aware that my dog could ruin your day if i don’t pay attention so i don’t take my eye off the ball.
All that said, I’d still recommend the breed highly as the reward for having one of these dogs in your life is massive.
As i said in one of my previous posts, it’s a big responsibility to take on a breed that is capable of inflicting a lot of damage quickly. A lot of people aren’t ready for the intensity that a pitbull has when its prey drive kicks in, or it attacks to protect. That’s where some people freeze and have no control and this is why you need to know exactly what you’re getting into before you take on the responsibility.
I’m well aware that my dog could ruin your day if i don’t pay attention so i don’t take my eye off the ball.
All that said, I’d still recommend the breed highly as the reward for having one of these dogs in your life is massive.
Ecor1
Active member
Ecor1
Active member
I hear you brother, they are like I said my faves and a heck of a responsibility. Not for the meek or timid and they will work their way into your heart and when they pass it just humbles you for you never forget your pals. Pittys are special each and everyone and takes a special person to take care of them. I have made mistakes in the past because I wasn’t prepared and carry this and don’t want anyone to feel that pain because they didn’t do their homework. I say go to the dog shows and weight pulls talk to people that know. Talk to people who really put the dogs welfare above other limited objectives. Learn to be responsible and respectful of your community by being the best representative of the breed. HARD WORK! Treat them just like your kids they depend on you to lookout for them, love them and guide them.
Peace and Love
Peace and Love
You can learn to drive a car, but not be able to jump in a formula 1 car and operate it safely.
It’s not the car that’s dangerous as such, you just haven’t had the right level of training for it - maybe you don’t have the right personality type either to drive at 300km.
Could it be considered in a similar way?
Some breeds might require a particular personality type and level of training above and beyond most breeds.
It’s not the car that’s dangerous as such, you just haven’t had the right level of training for it - maybe you don’t have the right personality type either to drive at 300km.
Could it be considered in a similar way?
Some breeds might require a particular personality type and level of training above and beyond most breeds.
Ecor1
Active member
Just like shooting a gun, if you don’t grow up around them then best to get around responsible people that know. Heck I have been around people who just want to have their own gun and you tell them to wait and shoot one of yours first. Very surprised when taught my wife to shoot; I thought this will only take once and will be all over but no she liked it = true hillbilly. Had another friend that thought he would love shooting NOPE! Shot my 45 ACP and never picked another one up! That’s why I say go to the conformation shows and weight pulls. You find all kinds of fun people and they are more than happy to show you the ropes and become part of a community that puts their welfare first. Like the old saying goes;”Safety is no Accident”. Loved race car analogy spot on!
xtsho
Well-known member
One thing some people that have Pitbull's don't seem to understand is that other people don't know the dog and don't want to be around it. Saying "It's the sweetest dog and has never hurt anyone" is meaningless because history is filled with sweet dogs that never hurt anyone then all of a sudden attacks someone or another dog. People have been killed by these sweet dogs and many peoples pets have suffered a gruesome fate in the jaws of a Pitbull. Lots of stories of people with Pitbull's leaving the room only to come back to find it mauling a toddler.
They're the sweetest dogs until they're not. Nobody knows what the dog may do tomorrow, next week, year, etc... All you can know is how it's behaved in the past not how it's going to act in the future.
It's the responsibility of anyone that owns one of these dogs or any other breed that can potentially be dangerous to keep them under control at all times and understand that there are people that don't want anything to do with them. If you're walking the dog and someone is coming your way it's you're responsibility to maintain distance. If someone wants to greet your dog then they will let you know. It's wrong to think that others should alter their path because you believe your dog is the sweetest dog ever.
When I walk my dog and encounter someone I make sure that I'm in control of my dog and will move from the sidewalk to the street to let others pass. I do that with all my dogs even small Chihuahua's. Some people are terrified of dogs which is something many don't seem to understand but a good dog owner does and takes steps to lessen their fear.
Also, no Pitbull or potentially dangerous dog should be taken out in public without a sturdy harness that has a handle that lets you maintain complete control of the dog. A standard collar isn't good enough and harnesses are inexpensive.
They're the sweetest dogs until they're not. Nobody knows what the dog may do tomorrow, next week, year, etc... All you can know is how it's behaved in the past not how it's going to act in the future.
It's the responsibility of anyone that owns one of these dogs or any other breed that can potentially be dangerous to keep them under control at all times and understand that there are people that don't want anything to do with them. If you're walking the dog and someone is coming your way it's you're responsibility to maintain distance. If someone wants to greet your dog then they will let you know. It's wrong to think that others should alter their path because you believe your dog is the sweetest dog ever.
When I walk my dog and encounter someone I make sure that I'm in control of my dog and will move from the sidewalk to the street to let others pass. I do that with all my dogs even small Chihuahua's. Some people are terrified of dogs which is something many don't seem to understand but a good dog owner does and takes steps to lessen their fear.
Also, no Pitbull or potentially dangerous dog should be taken out in public without a sturdy harness that has a handle that lets you maintain complete control of the dog. A standard collar isn't good enough and harnesses are inexpensive.
xtsho
Well-known member
Ecor1
Active member
Nice looking dog.
Jasmine says hello.
View attachment 18881942 Jasmine is a cute one too! Much
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xtsho
Well-known member
I don't know what she is. She's a mix of something. Boxer, Pit, Lab, who knows. She was a stray. The shelter just had her listed as mixed breed. I may get a DNA test but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the kits you can get online. It doesn't really matter what she is. She's my baby regardless of breed.
