Co2 kill flavor an smell?

[hambre]

Heat is our enemy. Terp's def burn off the more heat there is. I've never seen the need to use Co2 since I'm not growing in a sealed room, especially today with all the improvements in IPM tech and good order control. IMO none sealed rooms run better. Cooler temps are better but not lower than 75f IMO. I run a mixed light flower room CMH/LED. LED has trouble keeping the room warm enough. The CMH light adds the heat I prefer.

Hi, they definitely don`t burn with normal controlled temperatures. You need at least 37ºC to even start degrading and more than 100ºC to boil them. Definitely sealed rooms with dialed environment run better, it is proven. It is called optimization. Did you see somewhere when they have controlled rooms at 37ºC ambient? I didn`t.
And how could you claim 75ºF (+-24ºC) to be the top better temperature without knowing the rest of parameters??? Do you even VPD, bro? (Joke)
Every grower with his book, I get it, but those claims are only opinions, facts show other different world.

 

[goingrey]

Nah thats the core temp of the bulb, which contains vaporized/molten sodium.

Like others have stated if you have any idea what your doing you will be measuring air temps and radiant temp at the canopy; regardless what kind of lighting you’re using. Neither of which should go above mid 80’s Fahrenheit, let alone 450c!

It's not that the grower doesn't know what they are doing. It's the plants themselves that don't know what's good for them, stretching well beyond the optimal temp canopy sometimes overnight!



Imagine if you have to be away for a couple of days.

But yeah less likely to happen in a commercial setting running some dialed in (to max yield) clone where they know how it will behave. And cooltubes I suppose or whatever. Modern day slave labor tending the plants 24/7.

 

[goingrey]

No, never, thank God. Over fertilization burns the plants, which at the end, it is the same as burning them with heat, I would think. So, yeah, that is one fair reason to harsh smokes and lack of taste, obviously haha

CO2 addition should be accompanied with environmental upgrades too, and strict control. The amount of secondary metabolites on the plant increases with controlled stress, it is proven and there is research going on about this. Doesn`t mean stress the plant all day or do some weird stuff, it is controlled.

No not even overfertilization to the point of burning them (badly).

Healthy plants just producing more chlorophyll or whatever it is than cannabinoids/terpenes, hence dilution.

Might even be a smoother smoke actually. But less tasty and it will get you less high.

Optimizing for yield not potency.

 

[VerdantGreen]

No problem, I don`t want to be mean or anything, and english isn`t my native language so bear with me, please.
I don`t care what anyone grows when discussing this topics, that who`s-got-the-bigger-dick competition is not my place to be, it isn`t personal with anyone. I couldn`t take it personal.
There is some studies made by the university of Utah (I think it is Bugbee and another two guys) which shows the higher buds had (I don`t remember exactly) much more oils than the lower buds which had, obviously, less light. So, assuming you have an spectrumradiometer, you can measure the amount of radiation emanating from your lights and, of course, you can control your ambient temperature too, so it makes it almost impossible in a controlled environment to produce such effect as degrading terpenes on the higher buds. It will never reach the 37ºC needed to degrade them.

And yes, anecdotes are that, anecdotes, I try to be the most objective possible and I can admit if I am wrong. I have a lot of anecdotes too, but a tree doesn`t make a forest, right? The problem I see with anecdotes when someone tells me this or that made the change is: is that what really made the change? Can you point the closer lights to the buds as the real reason for what your buds are better than his? Usually, two people don`t grow the same way, and the plant respond to so many variables that it is pretty difficult to pinpoint only one as the reason of change. That is the problem I have with all of these growers, growshops, the cannabis market in general is made on myth after myth and bro science and anecdotes. I prefer to pay attention to people who actually study the thing and gift us (for free) with that knowledge. It is too easy to grow excelent, top quality buds, believe me, it is TOO easy. This is one of the most easy plants to grow in the entire world, but for some reason, it is treated as something special and different, but it is a plant. Study plant phisiology, biology, chemistry, etc and you will find real answers.

Hope I don`t bore anyone haha

I can't disagree with any of this. Essentially what you are saying is that if you do it right.. you will get good buds. I also try hard to follow the science.

 

[hambre]

I can't disagree with any of this. Essentially what you are saying is that if you do it right.. you will get good buds. I also try hard to follow the science.

Exactly what I am trying to say. Than God there is people out there studying and explaining to us simple mortals. I never went to learn english, for example, so I don`t get the majority of words they say, their technical language, so it is double difficulty

 

[hambre]

No not even overfertilization to the point of burning them (badly).

Healthy plants just producing more chlorophyll or whatever it is than cannabinoids/terpenes, hence dilution.

Might even be a smoother smoke actually. But less tasty and it will get you less high.

Optimizing for yield not potency.

Sorry, I don`t understand a word you said, maybe I am mixing something. Are you saying that more chlorophyll implies less terpenes because more biomass equals dilution in this case? And that could be a good smoke with less taste and less high? Bear with my english, please, not my native language.

 

[goingrey]

Sorry, I don`t understand a word you said, maybe I am mixing something. Are you saying that more chlorophyll implies less terpenes because more biomass equals dilution in this case? And that could be a good smoke with less taste and less high? Bear with my english, please, not my native language.

Yes, that's right.

Here is one paper about it. The language is even more difficult unfortunately.

Optimal Rate of Organic Fertilizer during the Flowering Stage for Cannabis Grown in Two Coir-based Substrates

In the expanding North American medical cannabis industry, growers lack reliable and systematically investigated information on the horticultural management of their crops, especially with regard to nutrient management and growing substrates. To evaluate organic substrates and their optimal...

journals.ashs.org

"Increasing fertilizer rate led to increased growth and yield but also to a dilution of THC, THCA, and CBGA".

So more fertilizer means more weight, but less of that weight is cannabinoids. And I have read about similar results for terpenes.

Very easy to believe CO2 or PGRs could result in the same, but I have no links to papers to back this up.

 

[hambre]

Yes, that's right.

Here is one paper about it. The language is even more difficult unfortunately.

Optimal Rate of Organic Fertilizer during the Flowering Stage for Cannabis Grown in Two Coir-based Substrates

In the expanding North American medical cannabis industry, growers lack reliable and systematically investigated information on the horticultural management of their crops, especially with regard to nutrient management and growing substrates. To evaluate organic substrates and their optimal...

journals.ashs.org

"Increasing fertilizer rate led to increased growth and yield but also to a dilution of THC, THCA, and CBGA".

So more fertilizer means more weight, but less of that weight is cannabinoids. And I have read about similar results for terpenes.

Very easy to believe CO2 or PGRs could result in the same, but I have no links to papers to back this up.

Well, I have to read it, seems interesting. But, to get back to the point, more fertilizer doesn`t necesarily mean more weight, as I said before, it depends on so many parameters! You must control at least 9 basic parameters, and then you have VPD, controlled stress, etc, so many things that make the plant grow more biomass and at the same time it increases the amount of terpenes. To be fair, without reading the study, the conclusion seems to take only one parameter and implies the amount of fertilizer is responsible for the dilution of cannabinoids, which isn`t necesarily true, as there is other parameters you can adjust to increase the amount of secondary metabolites on the plant.

And remember, there is people giving the plants 1.5 EC all cycle without a problem, growing excellent giant plants with great yields, I think it has more to do with taking care of the roots, control the environment and a well dialed fertirrigation. Less terpenes? I don`t think so.

 

[hambre]

Yes, that's right.

Here is one paper about it. The language is even more difficult unfortunately.

Optimal Rate of Organic Fertilizer during the Flowering Stage for Cannabis Grown in Two Coir-based Substrates

In the expanding North American medical cannabis industry, growers lack reliable and systematically investigated information on the horticultural management of their crops, especially with regard to nutrient management and growing substrates. To evaluate organic substrates and their optimal...

journals.ashs.org

"Increasing fertilizer rate led to increased growth and yield but also to a dilution of THC, THCA, and CBGA".

So more fertilizer means more weight, but less of that weight is cannabinoids. And I have read about similar results for terpenes.

Very easy to believe CO2 or PGRs could result in the same, but I have no links to papers to back this up.

Very interesting study, there is more than that simple sentence, much more hahaha

 

[goingrey]

Well, I have to read it, seems interesting. But, to get back to the point, more fertilizer doesn`t necesarily mean more weight, as I said before, it depends on so many parameters! You must control at least 9 basic parameters, and then you have VPD, controlled stress, etc, so many things that make the plant grow more biomass and at the same time it increases the amount of terpenes. To be fair, without reading the study, the conclusion seems to take only one parameter and implies the amount of fertilizer is responsible for the dilution of cannabinoids, which isn`t necesarily true, as there is other parameters you can adjust to increase the amount of secondary metabolites on the plant.

And remember, there is people giving the plants 1.5 EC all cycle without a problem, growing excellent giant plants with great yields, I think it has more to do with taking care of the roots, control the environment and a well dialed fertirrigation. Less terpenes? I don`t think so.

Yes, that's true.

When you're doing a study you have to concentrate on one parameter to see what it's effects are. Then the next study can concentrate on another parameter.

With many high volume commercial growers all of their parameters are optimized for max yield. Can't blame them if that's what they are paid for... Most people are not connoisseurs, at least not to the extent of being prepared to pay more.

 

[hambre]

Yes, that's true.

When you're doing a study you have to concentrate on one parameter to see what it's effects are. Then the next study can concentrate on another parameter.

With many high volume commercial growers all of their parameters are optimized for max yield. Can't blame them if that's what they are paid for... Most people are not connoisseurs, at least not to the extent of being prepared to pay more.

Well, smoke is subjective, to be fair. Testers, connoiseurs, etc, a big business of speculation as almost everything in the cannabis industry.
I support comercial growers, legal or ilegal, optimization doesn`t necesarily mean only yield, as I said, there is more than that, there are some producing higher than ever cannabinoids content buds.

 

[goingrey]

Well, smoke is subjective, to be fair. Testers, connoiseurs, etc, a big business of speculation as almost everything in the cannabis industry.
I support comercial growers, legal or ilegal, optimization doesn`t necesarily mean only yield, as I said, there is more than that, there are some producing higher than ever cannabinoids content buds.

Yeah, that's also true. Although it is kinda just another type of yield (yield of THC), I have to respect it.

 

[hambre]

Yeah, that's also true. Although it is kinda just another type of yield (yield of THC), I have to respect it.

Honest work hahaha

 

[lemonade]

With many high volume commercial growers all of their parameters are optimized for max yield. Can't blame them if that's what they are paid for... Most people are not connoisseurs, at least not to the extent of being prepared to pay more.

I’m not sure where you're sampling this cannabis, but having been in the cannabis scene in both BC, Canada and California, US for over 20 years; I can say that in my experience and geographic area the cannabis industry has become very competitive in the last few years. In both licit and illicit markets.

The tired old notion of “Commercial grows only care about yield grumble grumble” needs to be retired. People in this industry, in my area are darn near willing to try anything to set them apart and have a niche market.

Cannabis producers destroyed a record amount of unsold product last year

Licensed cannabis growers destroyed a record quantity of unsold product last year, highlighting the industry’s problem with producing more than it can sell. Data provided by Health Canada show that more than 425 million grams of unpackaged dried cannabis were destroyed between January and...

www.icmag.com

According to this link over a Million pounds of dried cannabis was destroyed/thrown away in Canada lasy year because it didn't sell quickly enough, and was deemed “expired”.

 

[Hammerhead]

Hi, they definitely don`t burn with normal controlled temperatures. You need at least 37ºC to even start degrading and more than 100ºC to boil them. Definitely sealed rooms with dialed environment run better, it is proven. It is called optimization. Did you see somewhere when they have controlled rooms at 37ºC ambient? I didn`t.
And how could you claim 75ºF (+-24ºC) to be the top better temperature without knowing the rest of parameters??? Do you even VPD, bro? (Joke)
Every grower with his book, I get it, but those claims are only opinions, facts show other different world.

I disagree, some terpenes burn off at much lower temps. It's pretty easy to tell when your room reaks at high temps and the opposite happens when it's lower. This is not anecdotal. I've been growing weed for 40+ years.. Been there done that.. I'll stick with what I've learned over the decades.

 

[hambre]

I disagree, some terpenes burn off at much lower temps. Its pretty easy to tell when your room reaks at low temps and the opposite happens when it's over 80f. This is not anecdotal.. I've been growing weed for 40+ years.. Been there done that.. I'll stick with what I've learned over the decades.

Well, it is anecdotal. Years mean years, not experience. You may be doing things wrong for 40 years, I don`t know you, you don`t know me, take it easy.
Tell me what terpenes burn at 80ºF and we are more than done, because someone linked an article about that and temps were much higher than that, so show me proof and prove me wrong, without anecdotes or showing off your 40+ years not learning how terpenes work.

 

[hambre]

It is amazing we were having polite discussions over here and then someone have to say "I`ve been growing for 40+ years, so shut up" Hahahaha, it gets me everytime.

 

[lemonade]

Guys terpenes are volatile chemicals.

“In chemistry, volatility is a material quality which describes how readily a substance vaporizes. At a given temperature and pressure, a substance with high volatility is more likely to exist as a vapour, while a substance with low volatility is more likely to be a liquid or solid”

What im getting at is terpenes do not need to reach their boiling point temp for there to be evaporation/sublimation.

Water boils at 100 Celsius. Does that mean you can heat water to 99 degrees C indefinitely with no loss in volume/evaporation? Of course not. A child could tell you this.

But lets assume that some terpenes do start to vaporize at 70f. I’d like to think most of us agree that the optimal temperature for growing cannabis is warmer than 70f, in terms of overall health, vigour, yield, cannabinoid content, and well mayyybe terpene production.

I guess what im saying is diff cultivars have different terpenes and growing requirements. In my experience between 76-84f is optimal for for lights ON temp in my rooms with CO2.

Perhaps if i ran 70f max throughout the crop i could achieve slightly more terpenes, but i’m certain overall health and vigour would suffer. Ive never purposely run such temperatures, but having grown many crops up north in canada in my earlier days with Air IN/OUT systems i do have experience growing at lower temps.

I never noticed much difference in the terps/odour of the plants. Just reduced overall vigour and health.

 

[hambre]

Guys terpenes are volatile chemicals.

“In chemistry, volatility is a material quality which describes how readily a substance vaporizes. At a given temperature and pressure, a substance with high volatility is more likely to exist as a vapour, while a substance with low volatility is more likely to be a liquid or solid”

What im getting at is terpenes do not need to reach their boiling point temp for there to be evaporation/sublimation.

Water boils at 100 Celsius. Does that mean you can heat water to 99 degrees C indefinitely with no loss in volume/evaporation? Of course not. A child could tell you this.

But lets assume that some terpenes do start to vaporize at 70f. I’d like to think most of us agree that the optimal temperature for growing cannabis is warmer than 70f, in terms of overall health, vigour, yield, cannabinoid content, and well mayyybe terpene production.

I guess what im saying is diff cultivars have different terpenes and growing requirements. In my experience between 76-84f is optimal for for lights ON temp in my rooms with CO2.

Perhaps if i ran 70f max throughout the crop i could achieve slightly more terpenes, but im quite certain overall health and vigour would suffer. Ive never purposely ran such temperatures, but having grown many crops up north in canada in my earlier days with Air IN/OUT systems i do have experience growing at lower temps.

I never noticed much difference in the terps/odour of the plants. Just reduced overall vigour and health.

Well, we debated this up there. Terpenes are big part of the oil on the trichomes, and higher temperatures stimulate the production of them as the plant exudes terpenes to protect from insects, animals and high temperatures.
There is no evaporation or sublimation happening enough to make a difference at temperatures high as 80F (which isn`t considered high in growing specifically cannabis in controlled environments)
If you run low temperatures you will preserve better the terpenes, but it won`t produce more since terpenes are produced with higher temperatures, that is why the talk about controlled stress came.

The article mentioned before takes 70ºF as a preservation temperature, and there is the confusion, as it talked about preservation of terpenes in harvested buds.

 

[Hammerhead]

Well, it is anecdotal. Years mean years, not experience. You may be doing things wrong for 40 years, I don`t know you, you don`t know me, take it easy.
Tell me what terpenes burn at 80ºF and we are more than done, because someone linked an article about that and temps were much higher than that, so show me proof and prove me wrong, without anecdotes or showing off your 40+ years not learning how terpenes work.

That's not a very smart reply lol.. I guess we view learned experience very differently.. You don't need to know me. It's clear more people today want to argue about shit that has nothing to do with them. Once you get to 70 I'm sure you will have learned more than you know now, or maybe not lol. I't ain't worth my time to teach chads were to put it. I'm not here to argue. . Lots of decades of my cannabis growing journey have been documented here at ICMAG. Many thousands of images have been uploaded here, I think my image library is the most extensive on this site. No way for me to verify that. I'll share my experience and knowledge. People can choose to use it or not.

Lots of people are familiar with my work. Just because you don't is on you.

2014 LA HT cup 1st place hybrid flower GG#4

Peace
HHG