Original Haze hybrids and psychohaze phenotypes

[MAHA KALA]

damn, some internet ass kicking sounds scary, btw once you cross Haze with anything its not Haze anymore. Using the same logic you fucked up your Haze, as you can never say everybody will like the resulting hybrid and Im pretty sure your opinion is not universal.

it was joke, of course I have no interest in kicking your ass anyhow. well not necessarily. og kush has certain properties and I dont use it as I think that indica fucks it up. I explained it already and quoted dj short on that purpose. indica takes down duration for example, but when I used bshw, it doesn't take down duration, it keep duration of haze effect, so in this regard, it is not fucked up. bshw has no couchlock stony effect, so it doesn't take down psychoactivity of haze like og kush. sure any cross transforms it, but it depends how... I told you more than I wanted. I will not explain my recipes here, it is useless anyway. do your kushhaze.

 

[MAHA KALA]

Hopefully I got the best of both worlds here. It's an astounding looking plant. I can't stop looking at it. Acid beauty...
View attachment 18711076 View attachment 18711077

BEAUTY!!! I think it is toms haze pheno.

 

[MAHA KALA]

So, if i understand you right, you tried to say that with Landrace Outcrossed F1 you get more trip out of it.. Like quantitaviely more trip per Pheno.

And im telling you, with a Landrace first Generation Seed, a good Pheno, take Cuttings share it wide, everyone has the Chance to get the highest.
It will be harder to grow probably, but its the only thing that i ever heard creating an ayahuasca high.

Im bit bewildered so few 70s Thais are handled exactly like that. Get reproduced in the highest possible order, PLUS first generation Cutting gets shared wide.

So, i know and share the fascination in this F1 VIGOR. Im totally onboard, but im even more on board with a first Gen. Thai cutting.

Im totally on board, that hybrid vigor is something great.. In my view, inbreeding depression happens, and the less the better..
And it happens already in F2, thats just my oppinion!!!
I feel that vigor is just an outstanding thing.. and probably can give you more Quantity, i know what you mean they are sometimes holding the trippyness a bit.. But i use different wordings, i dont use the word trippy often.. I just call most hybrids, even with small percentages Enhancers.. Its a cool enhancement, actuay im not shure if i smoked something like a 25, or 12, 5 PErcent outcross yet..

Cause for me , the various highest class Weeds compared, they either were downright scary. Like when everything feels like steel, and you feel like crying for help / or / some other weeds were ultimate psychedelic. I mean ultimate..
Its a very steep curve..
I never had something like a 12,5 percent Indica outcrosss then?

Probably.. I never had a "quiet ultimate" Experience , it was , the very occasional times, like 3, 2, 1 : GOOO fucking GO. All attention on the effects once they fludded on. Intense. (and each time this happend it was thin Bud)

Now lets look on most weeds:
Most times i smoked Weed it was like an Enhancement, just beeing high a bit, totally normal level. (i cant give Strainnames, it was all unknown bud).
There were different enhancement-like Weeds, some were , im convinced Landraces, very sedating, or toatally reaxing, so those were slightly touching this intensity.. But totally other league. They werent like mindboggeling..

Im shure they were landrace, cause i recall this deeeeeeeeply sedating bud.
It was quiet mindboggeling, but you know mindboggeling cant be "quiet" . It came the closese tho.

so, acording my experinece, i alwas seem to put any ever so slight hybridisation, be it 25 or 12, 5 PErcent into a whole other category.. At times i find it very, like overwhelming, or sickening, or unnecessary, or dull, or scary....

Only pure Tropicals that i probably smoked were, like a lifechanging mindboggeling, way more : delicate, elegant, mindbogelling, intense, peaceful, helpful experience, that sticks in my memory on the first Rank, and i cant forget it, its like it happend now.. i cant forget it.
its unbelevable..
They were like "see everything" and "know everything", LOL, you knwo what i mean ..

They are very ON , and Present . The suspected afghani was closest , but a joke against it..

And my experience may be limited, but i seen a few stuff..

so, all i can say, you can try reach this PRESENCE.. but i think the presence you get from a 1st gen 70s Line is so hard to achieve..
Like said the most horrible hybrid i smoked , one could call it present too, but the scary horrible crying for mama didnt make me see it that way.. It never sticks in my memory.. Somehow the Presence isnt there.. Even if it was heartpounding too.. and my focus was ON, but not on the Effect, rather on trying to not freak out or make me look like the dumbest idiot..

ALL my subjective Oppinion. IMHO IMHO IMHO
And for Record, those intense Tropicals were intense and peacefull,, dont be shy, theyre the most anxietyfree weed i smoked.

that talk about f1 hybrid, it is not really about vigor. sure it is enormous, but there is something else. it is that combination, and other generations are recombination which is different kind of manipulation. I dont think that in F2 you will see some radical decrease of vigor, but you will have to look for special pheno much harder, as F2 means all possible combination and according to genetic stability of cannabis, which is very low, you will get a lot of weak combinations. while in F1, or more freely and openly said in first generation, combination is reduced to very few possibilities and when it is done well, then weak combinations are masked and stay only virtual. it is apparent that you dont have much experience with it. it is just about growing and growing numbers. like breeders say.

well you will not like it. but I think that those ultra special experiences dont happen every smoke session. as it depends on other conditions, not only weed.

weed is mild entheogen and it itself cant give psychedelic exp like lsd or ayhasca imo. not really. it is similar only in some aspects, not all aspects. it can be similar to half paper, but milder anyway. or to some mushroom tea, but again only in some aspects. I have never assumed weed to be trippy substance before smoking haze and found it very interesting, but never stronger than mushrooms or few drops of lsd. no way.

 

[MAHA KALA]

I was just kidding in regards of being disappointed with only 14 weeks flowering of OHaze pheno and that is related to my experience, in most cases the best high was found in the longest flowering NLD plants (not talking aboud hybrids) A lot of folks are reporting this pattern, hard to ignore it at this point. After all, the best Haze I found was indeed the longest flowering one, out of 16 OHaze females...I am not talking about leaf morphology at all.

yeah. good for you I have never stated opposite. that extraordinary pheno is not there man, regardless how long it flowers... I just stated that there are other long flowering ones, which are average at the best. out of 40 + females, I got only 5 really above average and one extraordinary and I think I was lucky as hell... I enjoy those average one, hell yeah, it is not like they are not interesting somehow, but for me they are not worthy for so much work.

I got one pheno of laos x mango haze. it tastes like leather, like chewing leather and some pissy eucalyptus to it. it was super strong, no joke, I am not joking now. just like a5 or a5panama, just that super strong NLhaze style you know. but... duration was only 2 hours. 2 hours of good strong high, but common only 2 hours, I will not flower plant for 15 weeks to get 2 hours high.

then ethiopian highland for example, ultra clear spiritual high, very special, unlike anything else. but... potency very mild. I will not grow 18 weekers with mild potency, I need strong herb. I believe that if you will grow out 100 females of EH, you can find one with ultimate potency, like with any of those sativas. I didnt find it.

 

[elanius]

it was joke, of course I have no interest in kicking your ass anyhow. well not necessarily. og kush has certain properties and I dont use it as I think that indica fucks it up. I explained it already and quoted dj short on that purpose. indica takes down duration for example, but when I used bshw, it doesn't take down duration, it keep duration of haze effect, so in this regard, it is not fucked up. bshw has no couchlock stony effect, so it doesn't take down psychoactivity of haze like og kush. sure any cross transforms it, but it depends how... I told you more than I wanted. I will not explain my recipes here, it is useless anyway. do your kushhaze.

You realize that not all OG kush clones have stony couchlock effect right? The Pure Kush clone I used, has stimulating euphoric up high, it keeps me up at night. Strange that you attack the idea of pairing kush with haze, yet I told you it's being just and opportunity cross while making S1 and you never even sampled the weed. You simply dont know how this specific OG clone will affect that 20+weeker of Ohaze I used, so lets move on.


Edit: Reading your reply, no offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about. There are different Pure Kush cuts, you cannot read review on internet and assume to know how it smokes and express itself in hybrids, that's funny. If someone describe it as nighty night then its different clone, I wouldn't grow it and put my energy into preserving this cut, if it would be another generic OG kush with calming relaxing stone effects. So yes, you can of course state your opinion, but having strong opinion about something you have no experience with makes no sense and definitely doesn't lead to constructive discussion...

 

[MAHA KALA]

yeah I know it will shorten duration of effect, it is indica dominant, 85%.

description of pure kush:

The body high is strong, fast, and profoundly relaxing, with a calming physical buzz and euphoric, creative cerebral effects.

it seems that you forget relaxing and calming effect, not couchlock but some relaxing indica effect for sure, and it will play its sleepy role in this cross. it is recommended for chronic pain. that says it all.

I am sure somebody will like it as people like ghost train haze too. good hazy hybrid for sure. but too indica for me.

grow what you want, but hopefully. I can say my opinion.

smoke report:

Pure Kush cultivated by Josh D Farms (THC: 17.41%, CBD: 0.02%, TOTAL: 19.99%). Effects: "Nighty-night. With this strain, you’ll get a classic, smooth sedative effect. But first, be prepared to experience a mind-enhancing creative rush that throws the brain into a zone of profound discovery. Sleepiness then creeps in—and it definitely packs a wallop. Medical marijuana patients often attest to its strong effects." - Josh D Farms Terpenes: Limonene, beta-Caryophyllene, Linalool. Medicinal Effects: pain relief/analgesic, gi issue relief, anxiety relief, nausea relief, anti-depressant

did they say ANALGESIC?

 

[romanoweed]

it is apparent that you dont have much experience with it

tss--

eventual Evidence for Hybrid Vigor/inbreeding depression

only cause i use different ways to describe things as you probably.. i will probably never be onboard with what the most say.. most anyway dont speak about preservation. and they probably lack in experience for preservation. IMHO IMHO IMHO. Hell, as if Mendel laws describe it all.. Theyre was a scientifical Paper adressing how breeders tend to use their Mendel Laws to describe everything, including Preservation, and that it might be a mistake.. And that its not everything..

So, i am only interested in preservation..
So, i probaly have insights that you dont have, unless you read my 4 preservation threads. IMHO IMHO IMHO

Imho. there is even evidence for what i just said.. it wasnt brought up by me.. it was brought up by someone unrelated .

He said its possible that inbreeding Depression is probably the deleting of Mutations. A mutation can only persist, if bouth parents have it..
And if you combine two unrelated Lines, then all the mutations that were present can be deleted.
That is only if bouth Lines infact dont carry the same mutation.. And similar Regions Landraces may very well have the same mutations,
So, the further apart the Regions from where you take Father and Mother, the more likely they have different mutations.

Its also to note that not al Mutations are bad, but some definitly are.. They deform your Leaves very often, thats not good for optimal Sun-uptake.
And its also to note that in a trieving Landrace Region, the different microclimates from where the 1000s of Fathers and mothers all interpollinate might be the reason why Landraces are not per see depressed, and infact on a good vigor level.. (cause they have sligtly different genes- deleting mutations)

It also lines up with the idea, that heavy Bottlenecking causes inbreeding depro faster, because your selecting into a single direction, instead of 100.. hence minimalyzing the different gene-expressions.. Hence more similar Genes express, hence the likelyhood of Mutations, not getting deleted is much higher.

Of corse you can call me unexperienced.. tss.
Of corse you could have the better understanding. i anyway dont care. My post was mostly about , that i never smoked a HYbrid as powerfull as a pure tropical Strain.

But be aware, some people know things too. they spent long time trying to figure out how to preserve a line without the Degradation..
And knowledge can probably overweight experience, Am i talking to breeders association with 100000s of plants of just a homegrower.

So, i care for fundamentals, and do so alot.. And imho, its soley the outcrossing that improoves your cultivar in therms of vigor..
And no, disagree. The F2 are less vigorous.. Vigor vanishes in the first couple generations the most.. especially from f1, f2, f3..
Someone already fought the idea that this is inbreeding depression, that its the same thing.. That loss of Vigor is the increase of inbreeding depression..
Probably you know better, but can you give me evidence ?



how psychedelic and strong cannabis is


thanks for the understanding, and letting room for my experience and thematic to be heard. For me it was like ayahuasca.
Possibility 1: you never smoked some of these rare first generation 70s tropical seeds, grown well indoors..
Possibility 2: not everyone will trip on the same Smoke even.. Brainchemistries are individual

 

[romanoweed]

so, since this guy who presented this theory in previous Post seemed to talk with very knowledgable guys,
So your response to my Theory of "inbreeding depression beeing a Thing" a "hybrid Vigor Thing" is in the same Time a response to this apperantly knowledgable Guy,
And all your response was is: you apperantly are unexperienced..
strange.

 

[Bnyest]

Mango A5 haze x Original Haze (Todd) 16 weeks

 

[romanoweed]

And for the Record, what i just said above, after couple secounds of googling, described in other words:

• Inbreeding depression and heterosis could be caused either by the presence of (largely recessive) deleterious mutations that are present at low frequencies in populations (so that inbreeding increases the frequency of individuals expressing their effects; the 'dominance hypothesis') or by alleles with heterozygote advantage that are maintained by balancing selection at intermediate frequencies (here, homozygotes would have lower fitness; the 'overdominance hypothesis').

The genetics of inbreeding depression - Nature Reviews Genetics

The genetic basis of inbreeding depression and of the related phenomenon, heterosis, has been a puzzle for many decades. Based on recent studies in many species, the authors argue that both phenomena are predominantly caused by the presence of recessive deleterious mutations in populations.

www.nature.com

I dont know, but one of those hypothesis sounds exactly like what i just said.. So, i dont know where is the basis for you calling me unexperienced.
If my Knowledge is spot on, then i dont know how you can tell me such things.

-------------


And i bet i have read that hybrid vigor shows the strongest in the first three generations.
So the f1 is mostly a third bigger than F3 , where it levels out.. and no extra height is observed anymore..
(and F2 is also reduced size of corse)

 

[GreenAndFast]

@MAHA KALA Tom's haze pheno sounds good to me. I've took cuttings that are now vegging. Think it will be used alot in my upcoming crosses. Acid beauty, tropical boogie, grand funk, Sudanese and Malawi gold are my males to choose from. The plant above has already been lightly pollinated with my acid beauty male

 

[romanoweed]

another quote from the paper: (no , i didnt cherrypick, i googled couple secounds)

• The overall data suggest that inbreeding depression is predominantly caused by recessive deleterious mutations in populations, so we argue that the same applies to heterosis and that the appearance of overdominance is often due to pseudo-overdominance.

So, in other words, Hybrid Vigor is the absense of Deleterious Alleles. (mutations).. Right?

And am i right too, that Landraces are rather on the Vigorous side ? So, why? is it cause by high numbers of Keepers deleting all those mutations? I mean they are not really bottlenecking the Landraces in my oppinion.. why is inbreeding depro so much more present in our inbreeds? (imho it is, i rarely see such shattered stuff like in inbreeds..)
so, is hybridisation and high numbered keept phenos in landraces deleting those mutations, like snip?

 

[romanoweed]

Why hybridisation as a final Step is fascinating
You say, there is unexperience from my side, and you say one could just grow high numbers and do perfect selection, right?

Ok..
Now down to reality. reality is, in order to find the Pheno with no newly emerged Mutation, you need to
- A: find that one of 10000s Phenos
- B: you need to test it, if i recall over multiple generations, and even be able to spot it then.. its so subtle..


Likelyness is:
a: you dont grow 10 000s Plants, so you likely dont find it
b: you dont test it over multiple generations, and cant even spot the mutation, is so hard to spot it all

In other wotds its super unrealistic that you and me achieve the money and skills to do that..

So, we come to realisation, that we need to make compromises..



-Compromisa A: The Preservationist just wants to copy a Strain AS IS. In order to do that he does compromise the homogenisation part, he soley focusses on imitating the enviroment . This science is called "Terroir" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terroir . So, that his Strain doesent adapt to a different Region, and hence doesent change. All he wants is that his Strain stays AS IS . By keeping most of Phenos or not Bottlenecking, acording my scientifical Knowledge, the Mutations get automatically erased- Or how exactly it works i dont know. What i know is that Landraces arent all dying of inbreeding Depression, not at all.. So it musta be the numbers or the slight difference in Regional Microclimates and hence the different Alleles. What i know is that it works.

-Compromise B: The Homogenisateur learns a life long how to select and probably , probably learns how to spot the one of 100000 Phenos..
He tests it.. he finds the mutation.. We can only hope if we preservationists put our money on him.. Cause all we know (i know) that Landraces are the strongest weed on earth.. So he better dont scrwew up. PLUS he needs to imitate the original Climate too , the Teroir.

This leaves me with a conclusion. WELL theoretically the Homogenisateur is the God of Breeders, but factual he is probably not without mistakes.. He also needs to spend his life , or rather a whole group of Breeders need to spend their lives achieving that level..
Most likely he will fail..
Awwww
So, his Work will on the long run, after 100s of generations of topbreeders catch quiet a few mutations, Awwww
That means, and im serious , one of the reasons why our Thais, and whatever get weaker, and weaker and weaker.. Its also the enviroment.. but its also the bottlenecking..

So, and the Preserver will not care for homogenity, he will spend all his money soley to recreate a climat, and just not bottleneck his Seedline hard, he will aply the same Selective pressure like Landrace regions did. (i can only guess, but i would say keeping 4 of 5 Plants)

He will for fun, cause he read to much psychohaze threads, outcross it like you to another line thats shortflowering, that he preserved aswell in highest order..
He will then take a cutting of the offspring, wich will be shared..
He can also just take a Cutting of his vigorous reproduction of the Landrace.. wich will be shared.

In other words..
Genetics are dying, and you homogenisateurs have even problems of keeping up with my killer Landrace, no matter what..
You just have (IMHO) . Thats what i said in my "Smoke reports" . Ive yet to get a Hybrid as PRESENT and psychedelic as Landrace..
Amd those mutations are part of it, cause you try to homogenize.. What you are missing is the killer Pheno.. You get a pretty killer quantitative Weed..
Wich is of corse your goal, but not mine.. And wordings such as " Landrace Outcross has more strong Phenos than same amount Landrace phenos itselve" are missing that Landrace has THE Killer Pheno.. and you just cant recreate it , And you culd take a cutting of it..

So, calling me unexperienced, is calling your calculations as more truthful than my calcultion, that you still cant touch the power of my Landrace killer pheno.
Sadly i can do math, and i spotted your "appereantly you are unexperienced" as a possible claim that a Balanced Equation, with similar weight on each side is unbalanced, and your approach having more weight . I spotted that.
cause its just your Taste.. and my Taste is 100,00 Percent effect. HENCE i preffere an fullon bomba outcross to a degree. And outcross a Landrace x skunk, oh yeah.. perfect way for me to get super Mutationfree Pheno. Just have to search trough more phenos afterwords, and just have to take a cutting .. (i mean thats if i aimed for Landrace x Kush )
Perfect to trip the closest to heaven, while you college, still search for the killer pheno, but likely cant find it in your homogenized F3 bottlenecked selection..

You know, i smoked alot first gen outcrosses in switzerlnd paradise in 2000.. i have some experience with smoking.
I was blown away by first or low gen Landraces.. Oh yeah i was.. I actually have not so much experience with high-gen homogenized landracs, but most often they are just missing something.. (subjective imho)

So, i stick to it : Hybrid vigor is something fascinating (means it never will be easily outperformed by breeders homogenized Lines IMHO)

Its easily a Techique that is on Par with the Choice to homogenize your freshly outcrossed Strain. Atleast i believe. because i smoked low Gen Strains.. IMHO IMHO IMHO

 

[romanoweed]

Anwser me this Question: why are Landraces not inbreeding depressed, if the people selecting them are not at all super professinoal breeders..
They are just : get some, grow some , cull some. How is it possible?
why are they not inbreeding depressed, if mutaions are assumed to be the reason for inbreeding depression? and if they are abstinent only in very few phenos (1 of a 1000).

I asume i know the anwser probably..

 

[numide]

Nice plant everyone

Mextasy x THH

Grandfunck

Trpical boogie

Many thanks @MAHA KALA

 

[midwestkid]

The serrations on that mextasy are quite pronounced

 

[LostTribe]

You realize that not all OG kush clones have stony couchlock effect right?

I agree that there are both couch lock and also motivating highs in OG Kush lines. I prefer the more motivating ones myself. I do not like couch lock. The biker I ran both turned out couchy. Tahoe and SFV give me motivation. The sour og in particular is mostly motivating as well.

 

[MAHA KALA]

Anwser me this Question: why are Landraces not inbreeding depressed, if the people selecting them are not at all super professinoal breeders..
They are just : get some, grow some , cull some. How is it possible?
why are they not inbreeding depressed, if mutaions are assumed to be the reason for inbreeding depression? and if they are abstinent only in very few phenos (1 of a 1000).

I asume i know the anwser probably..

so why are you asking?

I have never talked about inbred depression, quote me on that LOL

 

[MAHA KALA]

@MAHA KALA Tom's haze pheno sounds good to me. I've took cuttings that are now vegging. Think it will be used alot in my upcoming crosses. Acid beauty, tropical boogie, grand funk, Sudanese and Malawi gold are my males to choose from. The plant above has already been lightly pollinated with my acid beauty male

first smoke it and then you will see if you like it at all.

I put my ABs to flower, soon I will show some pics.

 

[MAHA KALA]

Nice plant everyone

Mextasy x THH

Grandfunck

Trpical boogie

Many thanks @MAHA KALA

looks great amigo!

wish you good luck with them!!!!!