Geography, History and Human Universal Culture:

[Montuno]

I will need to search, which is why I only alluded to this. I recall reading and or seeing a documentary hypothesizing a connection between Teotihuacan and structures in Florida and Monks Mound.

If I had the cash, I'd travel to these spots since I'm exactly in the middle of them all.

The theories are that Northern North America was populated via migrations from Russia but I wonder because of the Dene and Navajo similarities in language.

Aha.
But with Teotihuacan we moved a millennium into the future with respect to the pre-Maya before 900 BC, I think (?).
Florida is very far from Teotihuacan, and I don't know anything about possible influences. But if there are numerous studies and evidence of influence/contact with the American Southwest, with the Mogollon, Hohokam, Sinagua, Fremont (remember the excellent posts on the Fremont archaeological remains left behind in this thread) and Anasazi cultures/peoples; which will reach as far back as descendants as the Hopi-Zuñi-Pueblo peoples:

Annals of the Institute of Aesthetic Research​

printed version ISSN 0185-1276​

An. Research Inst. Estét vol.33 no.98 Mexico City nov. 2011:​

Articles
​

From Teotihuacan to Chaco Canyon: New Perspective on Relations Between Mesoamerica and the Southwestern United States:​

​

Patricia Carot and Marie-Areti Hers​

Institute of Aesthetic Research, UNAM

* Article received on November 3, 2010;
accepted as of May 27, 2011.

Abstract

Studies of relations between the southwestern United States and Mesoamerica tend to pay little attention to the groups that populated northern Mesoamerica and played a direct part in those relations. Recent work in the Sierra Madre Occidental and Michoacán allows us to elucidate some of the processes involved in the history of what might be called the ancient Camino Real de Tierra Adentro. In particular, they lead us to recognize the importance of Teotihuacan in the history of the north, not as a metropolis in expansion, as had previously been proposed, but in the framework of the diaspora of its population resulting from its violent destruction. These advances facilitate a fruitful dialogue with the present efforts of Hopi scholars to confront the contributions of archeology with their own oral tradition telling of the migration of several of their clans from a place of origin called Palatkwapi, which might be identical with Teotihuacan.
MORE:

De Teotihuacan al cañón de Chaco: nueva perspectiva sobre las relaciones entre Mesoamérica y el suroeste de los Estados Unidos

​

Of course, more is known about Teotihucan relations with somewhat more southerly peoples such as the Tarascos-Purépechas-Chichimecas (for the Spanish, One of the most formidable enemy encountered on the North American subcontinent, far above the Mexica or Comanche). And even more with the Maya: Teotihucan conquered part of the Maya world, imposing its rulers/kings, and creating a Teotihuacan-Maya fusion that is often confused with Maya.

Ahhh, Teotihuacan...Gypsy should give you a packet of seeds just for bringing up the subject...The capital was once one of the largest supermetropolis on Earth (yes, including the Mediterranean, Near East and China). And it is still the most "brutal" city and archeological complex in America....
I invite you to research and publish something about it. North Americans who don't know it and think that the Mexica and Maya are the "Mesoamerican cultural summit", will be surprised to see something much more powerful, and much older.

Salud!

 

[buzzmobile]

I will need to search, which is why I only alluded to this. I recall reading and or seeing a documentary hypothesizing a connection between Teotihuacan and structures in Florida and Monks Mound.

The Bog Bodies on the east coast of Florida date to 7,000 years. Their DNA is Asian. That's a long walk. I find it plausible that there was contact and cultural exchanges between indigenous peoples.

The Secrets of The Bog Bodies at Windover Pond

"During the construction of a new housing estate on a marsh in Windover, Florida, an ancient burial ground was accidentally discovered. It quickly became one of North America’s most important archaeological sites.


From the depths of Windover Bog emerged over 160 prehistoric skeletons, miraculously preserved and therefore able to give scientists unexpected clues about their lives, thousands of years after they died.


Cutting edge forensic techniques were used to expose extraordinary detail of the lives of these Native American ancestors. The swamp became key to learning about a society so ancient that almost all traces of it have completely vanished."

In 2016 another bog burial site was discovered on the west coast of Florida.
7,000-Year-Old Native American ‘Bog Burial’ Found Off the Coast of Florida

The ground-breaking discovery was made in 2016 by a diver who was searching for prehistoric shark teeth—a popular pastime on the Gulf beaches around Venice, Florida. But instead of shark teeth, the diver found a jawbone, with a molar still attached. He brought the relic to the attention of Florida’s Bureau of Archaeological Research, which confirmed that the jawbone had come from a human.

A team of underwater archaeologists, led by bureau supervisor Ryan Duggins, subsequently set out to explore the site where the bone had been found. “As soon as we were there it became clear that we were dealing with something new,” Duggins tells Gannon. He quickly discovered a broken arm bone, a collection of carved wooden stakes and three separate skull fragments. The team returned to the site in 2017 and found more human bones and wooden stakes, along with textile fragments.

So much to learn.

 

[h.h.]

They were catching waves at churches…

USGS Publications Warehouse

The earliest dispersal of humans into North America is a contentious subject, and proposed early sites are required to meet the following criteria for acceptance: (1) archaeological evidence is found in a clearly defined and undisturbed geologic context; (2) age is determined by reliable...

pubs.er.usgs.gov

 

[Montuno]

I will need to search, which is why I only alluded to this. I recall reading and or seeing a documentary hypothesizing a connection between Teotihuacan and structures in Florida and Monks Mound.

If I had the cash, I'd travel to these spots since I'm exactly in the middle of them all.

The theories are that Northern North America was populated via migrations from Russia but I wonder because of the Dene and Navajo similarities in language.

According to a small note on the human arrival to America of Andrés Ciudad Ruiz in the book Mesoamerica (under the coordination of the Professor of Prehistory Alfonso More Romanillo, and of History of America Concepción Bravo Herrera), volume 19 of the History of Humanity of Arlanza Ediciones Ediciones (Madrid-Spain, 2000), considers in the date of writing (1996-2000), the for the most pausible theory:

Summarizing: The first settlement would be through Beringia (between 32,000 and 26,000 years ago), by the Mongol group; and a more recent one, by the Inuit group.
Then there would be two maritime migrations across the Pacific to South America, one Australian-Melanesian and the other Malayo-Polynesian.
Apart from that, whatever new discoveries may be made.

 

[tobedetermined]

They were catching waves at churches…

USGS Publications Warehouse

The earliest dispersal of humans into North America is a contentious subject, and proposed early sites are required to meet the following criteria for acceptance: (1) archaeological evidence is found in a clearly defined and undisturbed geologic context; (2) age is determined by reliable...

pubs.er.usgs.gov

An early hominid basking in the California sun munching on mastodon 140,000 years ago? The criticisms on wiki point out that the tools are quite a stretch . . .

 

[Montuno]

They were catching waves at churches…

USGS Publications Warehouse

The earliest dispersal of humans into North America is a contentious subject, and proposed early sites are required to meet the following criteria for acceptance: (1) archaeological evidence is found in a clearly defined and undisturbed geologic context; (2) age is determined by reliable...

pubs.er.usgs.gov

I find the evidence very unreliable...And I believe that at that time not only did the Beringia bridge not exist, but Alaska and Siberia were as far apart as now, if not a little more (?).... Has it ever been heard of again?

 

[Montuno]

Caliphate (Umayyad Caliphate of Cordoba, also called of al-Andalus, or Hispano-Islamic) Ceramics :​

Handmade replicas of the originals on the wall of my home , with the same techniques and materials of the prestigious Cordovan ceramic workshop Wallada (with multiple international and national awards), specialized in the manufacture of handmade ceramics rescuing designs and shapes, precious workmanship, techniques and forgotten enamels, typical of the Umayyad Caliphate of Córdoba, 10th century, originals from the royal city of Madinat al-Zahra and from Cuerda seca partial ceramics. XI and XII centuries that splendid in the cities of Al-Andalus.

At Cerámica Califal Wallada make these two styles of Andalusian ceramics completely by hand:
Caliphate pottery in green and manganese from Madinat al-Zahra
Ceramics in partial dry rope or welts.like these two dishes that I have:

Partial or welt dry rope:

At the end of the Caliphate of Córdoba, a new technique, most likely tested in the Al-Zahra workshops and with Iranian antecedents from the 8th-9th centuries, began to spread throughout Al-Andalus. The gradual impoverishment of this opulent society due to the fitna (civil war) and dismemberment of the central power, entails a simplification of the pieces so that the workshops could survive. It is the partial dry rope of welts, in which the colors do not completely cover the porous surface, giving greater depth to the composition by isolating or defining the contours more clearly, and with the incentive of being able to play with the various characteristics of the biscuit mud.
Partial dry rope is contemporary with green and manganese in much of al-Andalus territory and is interrelated with it.

Recent research indicates a possible coexistence and emergence at the same time of partial and total dry rope ceramics.
(by José Luis Parra):

 

[Petrochemical]

“The natives weren’t peaceful”. I wonder why?

Because h.h our species on this planets only drive is to make holiday wreaths and observe religous holidays accordingly. We would never be a blood thirsty ravenous pack of chitheads to get what we want,for whatever we want lol

 

[Petrochemical]

Caliphate (Umayyad Caliphate of Cordoba, also called of al-Andalus, or Hispano-Islamic) Ceramics :​

Handmade replicas of the originals on the wall of my home , with the same techniques and materials of the prestigious Cordovan ceramic workshop Wallada (with multiple international and national awards), specialized in the manufacture of handmade ceramics rescuing designs and shapes, precious workmanship, techniques and forgotten enamels, typical of the Umayyad Caliphate of Córdoba, 10th century, originals from the royal city of Madinat al-Zahra and from Cuerda seca partial ceramics. XI and XII centuries that splendid in the cities of Al-Andalus.

At Cerámica Califal Wallada make these two styles of Andalusian ceramics completely by hand:
Caliphate pottery in green and manganese from Madinat al-Zahra
Ceramics in partial dry rope or welts.like these two dishes that I have:

Partial or welt dry rope:

At the end of the Caliphate of Córdoba, a new technique, most likely tested in the Al-Zahra workshops and with Iranian antecedents from the 8th-9th centuries, began to spread throughout Al-Andalus. The gradual impoverishment of this opulent society due to the fitna (civil war) and dismemberment of the central power, entails a simplification of the pieces so that the workshops could survive. It is the partial dry rope of welts, in which the colors do not completely cover the porous surface, giving greater depth to the composition by isolating or defining the contours more clearly, and with the incentive of being able to play with the various characteristics of the biscuit mud.
Partial dry rope is contemporary with green and manganese in much of al-Andalus territory and is interrelated with it.

Recent research indicates a possible coexistence and emergence at the same time of partial and total dry rope ceramics.
(by José Luis Parra):

View attachment 18124232

View attachment 18124233

That second plate is really nice
Id like a cribbage board in that motif

 

[Montuno]

That second plate is really nice
Id like a cribbage board in that motif

Both are representations of peacocks. Along with the flamingo, both birds have been a traditional symbol of representing/alluding to beauty, in the area, before and after the Islamic Conquest.

 

[Montuno]

Porque hh nuestra especie en este planeta solo conduce es hacer coronas festivas y observar las festividades religiosas en consecuencia. Nunca seríamos un grupo de chitheads voraces sedientos de sangre para obtener lo que queremos, para lo que queramos jajaja

On this subject, but only applied to the Spanish conquests, I am preparing an article: the trigger has been another contemporary article on the crimes of this conquest, published for the USA by a gringo journalist, who also claims to have his children schooled in Spain ( !?)...: In the common thread of the destruction and damage of monuments of the Spanish past in America as a result of movements such as "Black Lives Matters" (which I do not enter to discussion), the article begins by presenting a Conquest comparable to genocides such as that of Hitler, which will inform its public of their thousands of crimes, because if at least the Americans know part of the evils that the United Kingdom and the USA do to the natives thanks to the Far West movies, the Spanish are not given any information about their crimes. Even they deny it. ...And he knows it better than anyone, because his children study in Spain...

...And the entire article about this "super-progressive" plan...but without mentioning, in addition to the ill health because Spanish epidemies that causes the vast majority of aboriginal mortality, not one of the innumerable crimes of the Spanish Conquest that the Conquistadores themselves leave it in writing (either to gloat over them, to try to justify themselves, or to denounce other crimes of another of their compatriots) and that one of their children study in Spain (if they go to class and do not spend all day lying in a park smoking joints, or not studying at a USA-Spanish private school, of course) could have described it...

Damn, he doesn't even mention the Massacre of the Templo Mayor, nor the one in Cholula...

And I think that few Empires and Conquests have been so debated and questioned by their own protagonists, as the Spanish: from the beginning, just as there was an opinion party that criticized the protectionist laws of the Crown to have their hands free. in the brutality, there was another well-known party (it is not necessary to have teenage parties, I say study in Spain, to know) that questioned, opposed and even denied the legality of carrying out any military conquest...

This last aspect gave rise to the so-called Black Legend, by exaggerating (sometimes brutally) the crimes to draw the attention of the Crown (this will not exist in subsequent conquests of other nations). (Similarly, the opposing side created the Pink Legend, where the Spanish conquest was something like the @Petrochemical joke: innocent friars handing out flowers and saving souls across an entire continent.)

Then there is the fact of affirming that Columbus is responsible for between 10 and 15 million deaths (a million above, a million below; heh: you will tell me if the most populated area by far, all of Mesoamerica, had about 6 million), and the The guy says it so calmly... I wonder if he follows his crazy logic to also accuse Jesus Christ of all the deaths that Christianity would cause, or to the founders of Rome all the deaths caused by his subsequent empire, or to the founders of the USA all the deaths caused by the USA... Not only is this not the case with direct assassinations: it would never cross his mind to count people dead among crimes or because they were infected with Christian, Roman or American diseases...

And I don't know what the hell they celebrate on October 12 in the USA, but for the Hispanic world there is no Columbus Day (which was disavowed since his 2nd trip by Queen Isabel de Castilla, and finally stripped and relegated to ostracism for disobeying her and making slaves) : it is a day like the Irish, Muslims, Jews, etc., on Hispanic Day they can have their party.

I, who have been shitting on Colón since before this flip-flop knew anything about him, now it turns out that I can't celebrate Hispanidad por Cervantes, for example. But yes, our journalist has already made it clear to us, that the Germans, British, Belgians, Americans... if they have a logical right to celebrate their good cultural achievements, because that has nothing to do with the Nazi Genocide of the 20th century, for example . The Spaniards and Hispanics do not...because since we do not have cultural achievements, we can only be celebrating crimes of the 16th century. And it is that the cultural and racist classists who do not know that they are so because they think they are progressive, they can be smelled from afar: and even more so being so supinely ignorant. Damn, if they had paid me half as much as this flip flop for doing the article, I would have listed so many real crimes, that if I recorded them in writing on paper, with so many sheets, their children would not need to buy cigarette paper in 2 generationsof future stoners.

Inglés, español y portugués:

The Neverending Tragedy of Columbus Day​

The celebration of Columbus Day is not welcome. Colonization brought with it an immense tragedy that we must begin to remember. English , Portuguese .
Fernando Betancor
15 October 2015

The Continuing Tragedy of Columbus Day

The celebration of Columbus Day is not acceptable. The colonization brought with it an immense tragedy that it is necessary to start remembering. Español. Português.

www.opendemocracy.net

La tragedia interminable del Día de Colón

La celebración del Día de Colón no es de recibo. La colonización trajo consigo una inmensa tragedia que hay que empezar a recordar. English, Português.

www.opendemocracy.net

 

[Microbeman]

Another tidbit from my back brain lodgings. I'm still looking for the origins of the 'memory' related to Teotihuacun

The oral history of the Heiltsuk Nation, an Aboriginal group based on the Central Coast of British Columbia, tells of a coastal strip of land that did not freeze during the ice age, making it a place of refuge for early inhabitants of the territory.
While digging on British Columbia’s Triquet Island, archaeologists unearthed a settlement that dates to the period of the last ice age.
The archaeological team, supported by the Hakai Institute, sifted through meters of soil and peat before hitting upon the charred remains of an ancient hearth. Researchers painstakingly peeled away charcoal flakes, which were then carbon dated. In November, tests revealed that the hearth was some 14,000 years old, indicating that the area in which it was found is one of the oldest human settlements ever discovered in North America.

archaeologists also found a number of artifacts in the area: fish hooks, a hand drill for igniting fires, a wooden device for launching projectiles and a cache of stone tools near the hearth.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/one-oldest-north-american-settlements-found-180962750/

and a connected hypothesis -

Revealing an Ice Age Route for Indigenous Peoples

Archaeologists have identified a corridor through Vancouver Island where Indigenous peoples may have sojourned 18,500 years ago.

www.sapiens.org

 

[Montuno]

By the way, @Microbeman :
in the book "Mesoamerica" that I quoted before, several other human sites dated earlier: more than 25,000 years ago are pointed out; I don't know if it is correct:

(The lighter orange squares : Old Crow in Alaska, Calico Hill and San Diego in California) :

 

[Microbeman]

All enticingly interesting to me. Another read of interest;

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

It mentions places I lived and explored in my youth;
Haida Gwaii, Quadra Island, Vancouver Island and all the Pacific inside passages I navigated (or was aboard) by boat and ship. The way of life there of the Indigenous people is vibrant, no shortage of food and time to create art.

Here are some plates and a sculpture collected in the 1800s from Haida Gwaii. They are carved from a stone found there call argillite. When I lived there in the 70s there were quite a number of good carvers and a beautiful work, now probably worth 6 figures could be had for the price of an hour's work in the bush.

The houses they built were magnificent squared timber lodges called longhouses. Most homes had at least one totem near the entry, with a story to tell.

Skidegate Village where I stayed but lived in the forest north of there.

 

[Montuno]

Yes @Microberman: In the land crossing theory, primitive coastal navigation crossings have long been accepted.

The art of the North American Pacific is precious: the drawings on the canoes of some peoples already caught the attention of the Spanish discoverers.

 

[tobedetermined]

Well, if we are discussing areas of specific interest, lately I have been trying to fathom Mesopotamia and Anatolia. The discoveries often raise more questions than they answer.

Göbekli Tepe

 

[Montuno]

Well, if we are discussing areas of specific interest, lately I have been trying to fathom Mesopotamia and Anatolia. The discoveries often raise more questions than they answer.

View attachment 18124318

Göbekli Tepe

Argggghhh, cabronazo!!!

Me estaba reservando Gobekli Tepe para mí!!
Otro paquete de semillas que tiene que regalar Gypsy, ahora para ti.

En serio: te estaba comentando por privado que los asombrosos descubrimientos en Jaén (y zonas cercanas) van a ser, si cuajan, como el hallazgo de Troya, pero con milenios de anterioridad: apuntando y confirmando el revolucionario adelanto de milenios en el paso del Paleolítico al Neolítico que Gobekli Tepe reveló...

...Por que a los que piensen que Stonehengie es viejo...cuéntales, amigo @tobedetermined , cuantos milenios más lo es Gobekli Tepe...


Argggghhh, you bastard!!!!

I was saving Gobekli Tepe for me!!!
Another packet of seeds Gypsy has to give away, now for you.

Seriously: I was telling you privately that the amazing discoveries in Jaén (and nearby areas) are going to be, if they come to fruition, like the Trojan discovery, but millennia in advance: pointing out and confirming the revolutionary advance of millennia in the passage from the Paleolithic to the Neolithic that Gobekli Tepe revealed...

...For those who think Stonehenge is old...tell them, friend @tobedetermined , how many millennia more Gobekli Tepe is....

 

[tobedetermined]

Argggghhh, cabronazo!!!

lo siento mucho . . .

Göbekli Tepe is 9500bce - 9000bce or double the age of Stonehenge or the pyramids. And like both of them, it was not a place of habitation. Just what they did there and why it was built is still unclear.

 

[Montuno]

A historical meme, thanks to the resources of @tobedetermined :

Totonacs before the arrival of Hernán Cortés.

Totonacas after.

The reason seems to be not in that Cortés will tell very good jokes, but in some strange bushes that he was emperro to introduce there, for and that "...dress and harness of cordamen and sail, the ships that to expand the domains of the Empire, will leave the shipyards that I already ordered to be built..."

Serious note: I am not sure...but if not Totonaca, maybe Huasteca..., more than Toltec, Mayan (not sure) or Olmec...
I bet one of the Bells of the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, to Totonaca...:
أبو عامر محمد بن أبي عامر ابن عبد الله المعافري
(The Victorious One, for short; Almanzor, for friends) help me !!, I can't handle this on my own...

 

[Montuno]

lo siento mucho . . .

Göbekli Tepe is 9500bce - 9000bce or double the age of Stonehenge or the pyramids. And like both of them, it was not a place of habitation. Just what they did there and why it was built is still unclear.

Gobekli Tepe is 8000-7000 years earlier than Stonehenge

When Stonenghe was being built, there were already millenary urban settlements in Iberia, the Mediterranean, the Orient...

Gobekli Tepe could have certain similarities with Stonenghe : a religious center of celebration where different semi-nomadic groups met in common celebrations : they already had enough surplus resources and organization to be able to realize such megalithic projects, and they were on the verge of total sedentarization and full Neolithic...