MKP PK Mixing

[f-e]

Sorry to of not posted. I have been so busy, and lacking any real direction.

I think I might be messing this up in veg. My first few runs, I outgrew my veg area, bringing them on at a good rate. Yield was reasonable. I have been slowing them down on purpose, thinking once in bloom I can make it up during stretch. I think I could be way off point here. As a hydro grower, I learnt I had to provide everything all the time. I thought, they need it all the time. I'm coming around to the idea it needs to be available, but that they don't eat so much of it after a couple of weeks. I really don't remember how feeding a recirculating system went. Regarding feed use. I know some soil guys speak of not feeding from half way through. I found this odd. Now I have a new picture forming. One where you really need to grow them in veg, not hold them back. Progressing the ec in the plant and substrate higher almost each day. Going for the most you I can constantly. Right through preflower. Then, I think this sudden stop of eating might actually be right. That flowering consumes a lot from the plants stores. Read on, I see half a calcium needs to be present in the plant, as the plant gets less capable of taking things in. I'm working under the idea all food comes from the root, as it's needed. It seems I didn't get the memo. 30 years lost in the post. Could it be so?

I have been through every feed ratio. All the equipment options. The water. The air quality. Root space and treatment. Coco, and 50% mixes, before terra. The one thing I have failed to look at, is my veg treatment beyond keeping them looking healthy. I'm not growing strong plants.

 

[exploziv]

For real, I feel like with high intensity leds, if I fuck them a bit in veg, it will just mean I'll be behind on feeding all grow. Or at least they'll look like that. I am trying to find the magical nutes ratios and strengths as well.. but it's just a lot of tries so far. Plants seem to do ok'ish with good yelds but i want fully happy and healthy plants from start to finish and no ideea how to obtain that.

 

[Sampas92]

Flush of new root growth preparing plant to support new top growth in flower.

Thanks, it makes sense.

Peace :tiphat

 

[jackspratt61]

The lighting used makes such a huge difference. It's like learning to grow again at first. The numbers I posted are pretty solid for growers choice led 3500k except for the calcium which I continue to lower and am seeing better results in the more sativa strains. K/Ca at 1.5:1 currently.
Came across Jack's ro #'s 109-15-111-60-17. That's K/Ca at 1.85:1.

 

[Sampas92]

Flush of new root growth preparing plant to support new top growth in flower.

That new root growth before flowering, i guess maybe before stretching(?), could affect the ph in the medium somehow, for example in a biobizz soil?

Peace

 

[wizberry]

The lighting used makes such a huge difference. It's like learning to grow again at first. The numbers I posted are pretty solid for growers choice led 3500k except for the calcium which I continue to lower and am seeing better results in the more sativa strains. K/Ca at 1.5:1 currently.
Came across Jack's ro #'s 109-15-111-60-17. That's K/Ca at 1.85:1.

Heya jackspratt61, I'm wondering what kind of differences you're seeing? I'm using 2 Spider Farmer 450watt LEDs on a 4x4, with adjacent 4x4s covered by 1000w Lux fixtures. So may be able to get a side by side comparison of LEDs vs double ended HPS running identical nute mixes. Currently at day 26 in flowering, switched to bloom mix at day 21. Running my own Jacks 321 formula, tryin to get it dialed in, cuz it runs HOT hehe. So I'm looking at your ratios to see how mine compare...K/Ca Veg ratio is 1.2, K/Ca Bloom ratio is 2.0, what other ratios are you looking at?

Veg Mix values are N 148 -P 37 - K 162 - Ca 135 - Mg 81 - S 109 Jacks Part A 2.7g/gal Generic CalNit (YaraLive) 2.7g/gal Epsom 1.4g/gal Ammoniacal Nitrate (21-0-0) .038g/gal Terpinator (0-0-4) 1ml/gal

Bloom Mix values are N 132- P 71 - K 244 - Ca 120 - Mg 76 -S 102 Jacks Part A 2.4g/gal, Generic CalNit 2.4g/gal Epsom 1.4g/gal , Ammoniacal Nitrate .038g/gal , Crystal Burst (0-15-15) 2.2ml/gal, and Terpinator(0-0-4) 4ml/gal.

Pics show LEDs vs DE HPS Bud pics are from a room coming down in a couple days, they came out OK but needed regular flushing which I missed for the first half of flowering, my BAD lol.

 

[jackspratt61]

Heya jackspratt61, I'm wondering what kind of differences you're seeing? I'm using 2 Spider Farmer 450watt LEDs on a 4x4, with adjacent 4x4s covered by 1000w Lux fixtures. So may be able to get a side by side comparison of LEDs vs double ended HPS running identical nute mixes. Currently at day 26 in flowering, switched to bloom mix at day 21. Running my own Jacks 321 formula, tryin to get it dialed in, cuz it runs HOT hehe. So I'm looking at your ratios to see how mine compare...K/Ca Veg ratio is 1.2, K/Ca Bloom ratio is 2.0, what other ratios are you looking at?

Veg Mix values are N 148 -P 37 - K 162 - Ca 135 - Mg 81 - S 109 Jacks Part A 2.7g/gal Generic CalNit (YaraLive) 2.7g/gal Epsom 1.4g/gal Ammoniacal Nitrate (21-0-0) .038g/gal Terpinator (0-0-4) 1ml/gal

Bloom Mix values are N 132- P 71 - K 244 - Ca 120 - Mg 76 -S 102 Jacks Part A 2.4g/gal, Generic CalNit 2.4g/gal Epsom 1.4g/gal , Ammoniacal Nitrate .038g/gal , Crystal Burst (0-15-15) 2.2ml/gal, and Terpinator(0-0-4) 4ml/gal.

Pics show LEDs vs DE HPS Bud pics are from a room coming down in a couple days, they came out OK but needed regular flushing which I missed for the first half of flowering, my BAD lol.

It's been a learning experience. I was running ca over k for years. Very low mg. Using led that all changed.
mg=p now and k/ca nearly reversed ratios. Also the metals are different..I use more fe and zinc and boron.
I'm still experimenting as it's much easier now to see the response because I'm in perlite filled earthboxes. Minimal exchange capacity so the feed is the buffer.

The most difference so far,and I'm just seeing it,is the k/ca ratio. And the strains have quite different preferences. Sativa from Gypsy's Thai to full indica all have different ratios they respond to. Also seeing different wants in mg and p across the strains.

Over next few runs I'll get my notes and observations sorted.

What are you using for metals?

 

[wizberry]

jackspratt61

I can relate, there's 2 sativa dominant plants that are showing brown hairs and clawing. I'm seeing drastic differences in strains, some are fairly happy, and some are severely stressed. This is at a k/ca ratio of about 1.2 during veg thru stretch, and then going up to k/ca of around 2 after week 3 of veg. My P/Mg ratio is P 37 to Mg 81 in veg, but it goes to P 71 to Mg 76 after week 3.

My micros are just the standard included with the Part A Jacks 321, At my feed levels, B .3 Cu .1 Fe 1.9 Mn .3 Mo .1 Zn .1 I'm working my way thru the AEA Critical Points of Influence video right now. How do you know if you have enough of those nutrients, expecially zinc and manganese?



f-e

I feel you. I've been struggling with pre-seeding isues for the last year and can't figure out why it's happening. I've changed out strains, changed out nutes, altered my deleafing schedule, spraying schedule, light leaks, etc. But it's getting better with the latest crop, and hopefully I can learn more about what's really causing issues. At least 2 things that you mentioned stuck out to me tho. The browning of hairs starts after the stretch, and the runoff increases at the same time. Do you think the plant may have an excess of N after the stretch? In my experience, when the PPM rockets, it means nutes are locking out, probably in both the media and within the plant. What do you think about an extra plain water flush done slightly before that 3 week point? With twice the volume of what you normally feed? Then adjust your nute levels to more of a bloom ratio with less N, more P K? Are you in soil? I'm using ProMix rn, but am seriously considering going back to coco 70/30.

Don't give up...understanding failure is the only way to reach perfection. We'll figure it out eventually hehe

 

[jackspratt61]

What light in veg? How is your water source? That's alot of mg in veg. Have you tried just the 3-2-1 ratio for veg?

 

[f-e]

jackspratt61

I can relate, there's 2 sativa dominant plants that are showing brown hairs and clawing. I'm seeing drastic differences in strains, some are fairly happy, and some are severely stressed. This is at a k/ca ratio of about 1.2 during veg thru stretch, and then going up to k/ca of around 2 after week 3 of veg. My P/Mg ratio is P 37 to Mg 81 in veg, but it goes to P 71 to Mg 76 after week 3.

My micros are just the standard included with the Part A Jacks 321, At my feed levels, B .3 Cu .1 Fe 1.9 Mn .3 Mo .1 Zn .1 I'm working my way thru the AEA Critical Points of Influence video right now. How do you know if you have enough of those nutrients, expecially zinc and manganese?



f-e

I feel you. I've been struggling with pre-seeding isues for the last year and can't figure out why it's happening. I've changed out strains, changed out nutes, altered my deleafing schedule, spraying schedule, light leaks, etc. But it's getting better with the latest crop, and hopefully I can learn more about what's really causing issues. At least 2 things that you mentioned stuck out to me tho. The browning of hairs starts after the stretch, and the runoff increases at the same time. Do you think the plant may have an excess of N after the stretch? In my experience, when the PPM rockets, it means nutes are locking out, probably in both the media and within the plant. What do you think about an extra plain water flush done slightly before that 3 week point? With twice the volume of what you normally feed? Then adjust your nute levels to more of a bloom ratio with less N, more P K? Are you in soil? I'm using ProMix rn, but am seriously considering going back to coco 70/30.

Don't give up...understanding failure is the only way to reach perfection. We'll figure it out eventually hehe

You say you are also seeing them stop eating and brown the hairs? I have not seen anyone else say this, in years of looking.

I used 94ppm of N for the first 14 days of bloom. Then 68ppm through to day 19, where I dropped to 42ppm. At 42 I see deficiency. It doesn't get beyond the lower leaves, and by 5 weeks it's not a deficient level. This is in canna terra though, so I do get an unknown amount from that. I saw no burning or curling signs of over feed.

When I physically move them to the bloom area and switch them, I see a calcium problems straight away. Terra is high Ca, and this runs base feels non is needed. I do add some though. They were getting 96ppm from me once in there, and 52ppm in veg.

Before things went wrong, I was in coco using a feed that if mixed full strength, come out 115-30-180-50-not specified. Last run, a couple of weeks from done, I moved my K up a fair bit to 170 and kept with 44Ca just to see. They made a recovery for that period. No more hairs grew, but they fattened up as best as could be expected.

Edit: Actually, I first raised K as I could see they would use it. However, I didn't get the response I wanted. So lowered the Ca


Do you have strong plants at switch, or like mine, have them been on ice somewhere.

I'm starting to think tomato's and talk of blossom end rot. Low Calcium. As I'm not really keeping up.
I did have one really good preflowering run, 145-94-162-193 trying high P and Ca. Day 12 was as fast as I ever saw anything go, with big frames and leaves. Ultimately, it made no difference.

 

[f-e]

There is a theme through all of this for me. I did 3 good grows, but could see I need Ca , but it wasn't until the end. My feed at full is 50ppm Ca but my meter was stuffed so I was probably giving 65-75ppm. Just Ionic coco feed. Then I started using calmag and progressively more of it. It might even be hand in hand. I could see problems with some lockout and was always suspect of K. I couldn't get enough Mg in there. Fe I corrected, but is fairly high in ionic anyway. I left coco because of the inherent Na and K problems it brings. Now as I look at my timeline.. the last blooming session and jacks slow reduction of Ca looking positive, I can't help thinking these pieces fit.
Ionic, on it's own with hard water, is fine elsewhere. Using the somewhat larger pots of the flood drain bucket system. Just dripping in coco and draining with the buckets. Which offer a small res the roots drop in to below the pot. This res offers a hydroponic twist to that system. It doesn't last the day, but its there. cf-16-20

I did see overfeed signs like the cupping downwards of N before I really pulled back. I knew it wasn't N though, as sometimes the leaf was on the lighter side. That cupping can be any of the big stuff. P K Ca Mg but P K and Mg also tend to cause tissue damage

I'm circling.. as I was thinking about tomato blossom end rot before. Though I just keep using lots of Ca as it seems to be what a lot of people did. While actually, I'm working it down. I thought I just did a 44ppm run, but learned today canna terra substrate is very calcareous. So I don't really know what I used. Non is listed on my feed either.

 

[jackspratt61]

Lookup 'light regulation of horticultural crop nutrient uptake and utilization' Read 2.1. below Fig 2..Blue light changes Ca concentrations and can alter Fe responses and utilization pathways.

 

[wizberry]

What light in veg? How is your water source? That's alot of mg in veg. Have you tried just the 3-2-1 ratio for veg?

I start off w/ a standard DE HPS dialed down to the lowest setting, w an additional shade cloth to reduce shock.
I use regular RO, it has some residual though, like 70-90ppm (.1 EC).

Yes, I initially tried the Jacks 321 at the suggested ratios of 3.6g of Part A, 2.4g of Part B, and 1.1g of Epsom Salts. The plants grew fast, but suprisingly 2 weeks later, still showed signs of cal/mg deficiencies. The values of Jacks 321 original formula, when I put it in my spreadsheet comes out to 142 - 50 - 205 - 114 - 86. So yes, the Mg is quite high, and there's still deficiencies!

I went thru the whole 1:10 hr video on Critical Points of Influence and learned quite a bit. Was struck by the importance of Ca , and how excess K competes with Ca uptake. If Mg limits Ca uptake as well, then I may want to redo the ratios to maximize Ca uptake. What do you think of a veg formula that would have the following values? 142 - 33 - 137 - 136 - 40 ....... Jacks PtA 2.4g/gal, CalNit 2.7g/gal

 

[jackspratt61]

Wiz

That's alot of residual for ro.
For hps your revised #'s look like a good starting point.
Jack's adds:
.25ppm mn/zn
.50ppm fe
.05 ppm cu/mo
.10 b per 120 ppm ca in their boosted CaNO product.
If your media has sufficient balance and sufficient mg you can lower mg even more once the plant roots in well.
Ca controls cytokinins and is largely responsible for internode length. Move the Ca up or down until you get the internode spacing you want on your different strains.

Fe
How's your veg going?

 

[wizberry]

You say you are also seeing them stop eating and brown the hairs? I have not seen anyone else say this, in years of looking.

I used 94ppm of N for the first 14 days of bloom. Then 68ppm through to day 19, where I dropped to 42ppm. At 42 I see deficiency. It doesn't get beyond the lower leaves, and by 5 weeks it's not a deficient level. This is in canna terra though, so I do get an unknown amount from that. I saw no burning or curling signs of over feed.

When I physically move them to the bloom area and switch them, I see a calcium problems straight away. Terra is high Ca, and this runs base feels non is needed. I do add some though. They were getting 96ppm from me once in there, and 52ppm in veg.

Before things went wrong, I was in coco using a feed that if mixed full strength, come out 115-30-180-50-not specified. Last run, a couple of weeks from done, I moved my K up a fair bit to 170 and kept with 44Ca just to see. They made a recovery for that period. No more hairs grew, but they fattened up as best as could be expected.

Edit: Actually, I first raised K as I could see they would use it. However, I didn't get the response I wanted. So lowered the Ca


Do you have strong plants at switch, or like mine, have them been on ice somewhere.

I'm starting to think tomato's and talk of blossom end rot. Low Calcium. As I'm not really keeping up.
I did have one really good preflowering run, 145-94-162-193 trying high P and Ca. Day 12 was as fast as I ever saw anything go, with big frames and leaves. Ultimately, it made no difference.

Ideally I start off with healthy clones from the beginning, and then flip once they're growing fast. But I had a few clones from a favorite strain a while back that just were not looking good at all. I think they contracted some kinda virus, stunted, small leaves, no smell, and lots of orange hairs. When I replaced those strains with new stock, what a difference! What cuts are you using? Are you sure they're healthy? I've run fresh new cuts with older cuts, and discovered my old cuts weren't healthy anymore even though they seemed OK in veg

Recently a buddy of mine overdosed Sulfate of Potash (0-0-52) , and ended up with all the hairs on the flowers turning brown, growth just seemed to stop, and the quality was pretty poor.

 

[exploziv]

Interesting new stuff on Ca. I am not sure yet, higher Ca == longer internodes, or the other way around? Can anyone tell?

 

[jackspratt61]

Interesting new stuff on Ca. I am not sure yet, higher Ca == longer internodes, or the other way around? Can anyone tell?

Increasing Ca shortens internode length

 

[f-e]

These Spider Farmers. Mix of 3000K and 5000K plus 660 and 730 ? That's what they are selling now, on 288 board.
I have 288 boards also sourced from China. About 3 years ago. I can check. Mine should be LM301H plus 660 from another lesser brand. I have noticed my boards are two different colours, when I think I ordered them all together as 3000K plus the 660s. Meanwell drivers, sharing there dimming controls. Not via external voltage or PWM. Just wired together.

Lights do shift to the cooler side over time, but I wouldn't expect to see this as a huge difference. From day one, I thought they finished quick. One particular strain would just stop a few weeks early. Fattening but not going upwards. It was very odd to look at. Like someone had took the tops off with scissors. A very abrupt stop to upwards growth. One I have seen outdoors before, but felt sure it was the height of the mist or something equally odd.

I do keep quite close. PPFD alright, but still lower than most.

Are you still in the 1 gallon air posts? Maybe 3L in them, and dry at the edges? Root balls very complete?
I have done fair in 1L pots, and now I think I'm using 2L at most. We are both on the low side perhaps?

My runoff trays are pvc ducting. It's about the only non-standard item I have.





Jack. Interesting article. I would not be surprised if it's P toxicity I have. I'm starting to separate my 'condition' into two different things. The stripes I saw come back on a day with just Ca and Mg. Now I managed to get the dead edges come back have dropped Ca and Mg and boosted the rest. I ran 63-42-135 and the edges on a couple went. I don't think that N is related or high, and I have done that K with low P fine. I didn't add Ca or Mg but I know my bases provides some Mg and my soil must be stuffed with Ca. For decades I have associated PK with brown hairs overnight, unsure which caused it, or if it was a total accumulation. Toxicity of either does something similar to the leafs. I have been right around the world with K changes.

I realise these changes are extreme, but I'm about to chuck it out anyway. It's not worth growing.

On that P tip, my runoff samples showed elevated levels. Almost like the water usage couldn't explain.

I just picked up some Canna feed. Veg is not getting my attention properly. I'm still in 15 cell tray with good node spacing, no thin plants due to little light or feed. I will get off my arse now...

 

[f-e]

wizberry
Do you see stuff like this?
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijua...y/17817317-i-feel-such-a-failure#post17858311

 

[wizberry]

wizberry
Do you see stuff like this?
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijua...y/17817317-i-feel-such-a-failure#post17858311

I see leaf tip burn when the plants start getting overferted. If it continues, the whole leaf dies off, and flowers start to die off as well. I've also been seeing the very tops of the flowers turn all white, like they were heat stressed, but the light is 3 ft plus away, and temps are in the 76 - 78 range.

I checked runoff EC and it was so high it didn't read on the meter, so I flushed like hell, and reduced feed strength to 1.5 -1.7 EC ( down from 2.4). I also started flushing 1-2x a week, once w/ recharge, and the 2nd with terpinator. Plants are coming back, super frosty, so fingers crossed.