Advanced Foliar Techniques Explored

[whycombinator]

I'm thinking of trying out some foliar with ANs 3 part, they are supposed to be well chelated and ingredients are as follows:

Grow
# Ammonium Nitrate
# Magnesium Carbonate
# Magnesium Nitrate
# Magnesium Phosphate
# Magnesium Sulphate/Sulfate
# Potassium Carbonate
# Potassium Nitrate
# Potassium Phosphate
# Potassium Sulphate/Sulfate

Micro
# Boron Proteinate
# Calcium Carbonate
# Calcium Nitrate
# Cobalt EDTA
# Cobalt Nitrate
# Cobalt Proteinate
# Copper EDTA
# Copper Nitrate
# Copper Proteinate
# Iron DPTA
# Iron EDDHA
# Iron EDTA
# Iron Proteinate
# Manganese EDTA
# Manganese Proteinate
# Molybdenum EDTA
# Molybdenum Proteinate
# Potassium Borate
# Potassium Carbonate
# Potassium Nitrate
# Zinc EDTA
# Zinc Proteinate

Bloom
# Magnesium Carbonate
# Magnesium Phosphate
# Magnesium Sulphate/Sulfate
# Phosphoric Acid
# Potassium Carbonate
# Potassium Phosphate
# Potassium Sulphate/Sulfate

Do you think this would work well or is it overkill? I noticed a lot of the nutrients are in forms that can be absorbed through the leaves, but maybe there are a lot that aren't as well. How does a 300 ppm mix with some aspirin sound? I'm aiming for a pH of like 5.5 right?

Forgot to mention this is for some small plants in early/mid veg:



Another edit, how about some organics in the mix? I've got ANs organic veg product which is:
# Canola Meal
# Citric Acid
# Crab Meal
# Earthworm Castings
# Fish Meal
# Sea Kelp
# Shrimp Meal

 

[whycombinator]

Something I noticed while browsing the AN site about their powdery mildew product, which is just potassium bicarbonate:

Although possible, we Do Not recommend spraying protector onto any crop beyond the second week of a blooming phase. The pH changes Protector expolits to inhibit powdery mildew, can also alter bouquet and colours of blossoms.

I don't know how much truth there is to that but it would make me think twice about using protector, sm-90, or milk to inhibit PM during flower.

 

[whycombinator]

So I did some more reading on AN's site and forums and found that their organic product should do a good job as a foliar, and people have used their 3 part as a foliar as well. I guess at this point I'm mostly wondering what the best combination of nutrients is to deliver foliarly. It seems like we're really just trying to provide more of what the plants already get, and that 3 part should do a good job, unless the nutrients aren't in a form that can be readily absorbed by the leaves. I ask because all these companies have separate foliar products that they want to charge a bunch more money for. The most popular foliars on the AN forums seem to be Scorpion Juice, Emerald Shaman, VHO, Colossal Bud Blast, and B-52, of which I only own B-52, and I own a lot of AN products. Is there really something special in there or in Folitech that I don't already have, or is it just about the nutrients being in the right form and amounts for foliar absorption?

 

[Pod Racer]

Well honestly all that work has been done for you, aren't people grand?
The DM series I'm so fond of (obviously) has done all that research and created the product you seek, or combination there of.
The first being Penetrator, which you'll want to get and use for any of the mixing you decide to experiment with. It is the best.
Second, Folitech has what you need pretty much.

The truth is you really can't force the plant to absorb more than it requires without the use of hormones. Which Penetrator has I'm sure. Which dilates the stomata and force the nutrient inside. All you can really do is make sure that at every avenue the plant has access to the nutrient it needs at the time it needs it and in the form it can most readily utilize it. It doesn't need all the nutrients all the time.

The practice I adhere to is one of extremely low traces amounts applied in almost vaporous form delivered to the underside of the leaves. You are literally applying the identical aeroponic concept to the foliar feeding as you would the root system. And if you are using a TAG system or like, the nutrient uptake is already on an increased schedule. I use it mainly for deficiency and pest control, but also add availability of ongoing nutrients that might get locked out during heavy or erratic transitions.

If that helps any.

 

[Pod Racer]

I am currently fighting a slight case of PM during flower. Now about 5 weeks into it. I'm going to use a mixture of 10% Milk, 85 mg Aspirin (Sal Acid), and if I can some Potassium Phosphate.

Some interesting information on the topic:

Phosphate Salts: Foliar sprays containing potassium phosphate salts, unlike most of the non-toxic sprays, can not only prevent powdery mildew but in some instances even cure it. These salts seem to stimulate a systemic effect that builds up plant resistance to other diseases, including some forms of rust and northern leaf blight. Phosphate salts are ideal as foliar sprays because plants quickly absorb and circulate them. Other advantages are their low cost, low toxicity, and environmental safety (phosphate buffers, salt mixtures that protect against rapid changes in pH, are constructed from these salts and often used in soft drinks). Phosphate salts can even improve plant growth, as they may increase plant nutrition. Effects of added phosphate are most pronounced on plants deficient in phosphorus. Like any salt, though, these can damage plants when applied as foliar sprays. Test small areas before applying to whole plants. You can purchase phosphate salts from chemical supply houses and some horticultural nurseries. (Dibasic potassium phosphate is slightly less effective as a fungicide than the monobasic salt.)

Neem oil: Neem is derived from the neem tree, a native of Myanmar (the former Burma) and India. Extracts of neem seeds are used as insecticides; they kill insects as they molt or hatch. Recently, fungicides made with neem oil have become available commercially. Neem oil appears to have better fungicidal properties than many of the oils described above, perhaps because neem contains sulfur compounds, which have their own fungicidal properties, as well as other natural pesticides. A neem-oil formulation called Trilogy has been approved by the EPA for use on foods, while Rose Defense and Triact (for control of powdery mildew, rust, black spot, Botrytis, downy mildew, and other common diseases) are designed for use on ornamentals. Make sure you buy neem with fungicidal rather than insecticidal properties.

I have been using Neem Oil and Salts of Potassium (Safer's version) up till now with great success, as well as SM-90 alternating applications every 3 days. This new mix is for the final flowering stage in hopes of not effecting the buds adversely but assuring I don't get slowed or stalled development from the PM.

Anyone with successful personal experience using a foliar defense against PM during flower please contribute your experiences.

 

[Guest]

I have been doing much research on the Dutch Master stuff lately. They have a lot of products like AN but I find they are not redundant and not necessary to buy all 12,000 products to get the job done like AN. I do use AN overdrive and a couple others but I just think there are far too many must haves to get the job done. Nothing really specifically addresses the foliar aspect the way Dutch Master does. I definitely agree with the chelation, I use Bio Biz's--Top Max due to the 30% humic acid in it, as you know acts as a chelation agent. I don't use it past the first couple weeks of flowering because it seems to encourage branching. Just observation not any studies to back that up.( the branching not the humic acid)

Peace

i've been using colossal budblast by an for the last two weeks (3x a week) and my plants have been the healthiest they've been in a long time. you're right, an's program has alot of ingredients but you don't need all of them. if you go to an's website, they explain to you what each product does, how it works, and goes into detail on the research done for that product.

an has a whole line of foliar feeding products. to me, colossal budblast, scorpion and vho stand out.

they also say the best time to foliar feed is right before lights come on, in case that wasnt mentioned before.

 

[Pod Racer]

Thanks Casual - I'm headed there now. :wink:

 

[coolx]

Density of stomata

The density of stomata on a leaf varies with such factors as: ..... and also, as it turns out, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air around the leaves. The relationship is inverse; that is, as CO2 goes up, the number of stomata goes down, and vice versa. Some evidence: Plants grown in an artificial atmosphere with a high level of CO2 have fewer stomata than normal. ......

When the mature leaves of the plant (Arabidopsis) are encased in glass tubes filled with high levels (720 ppm) of CO2, the developing leaves have fewer stomata than normal even though they are growing in normal air (360 ppm).

Conversely, when the mature leaves are given normal air (360 ppm CO2) while the shoot is exposed to high CO2 (720 ppm), the new leaves develop with the normal stomatal index.

I was wondering if this means it would be better to veg with no CO2 to get more stomata, and then in flower use CO2. IE does more stomata equate to better growth - from either foliar feeding or normal thru the roots?

 

[Pod Racer]

What it means is that the plant compensates for the CO2 level, whenever and where ever. So it is only valuable as an environmental compensation for not having the ideal canopy environment available to the plant. Otherwise the only known (to me) way to increase Carbon absorption would be via a sub-aquatic method.

Most will argue that it just grows bigger more lush leafy green plants, but this does not necessarily translate into larger, more dense colas or stronger resin production. It does however translate into greater demands for resources to feed and sustain the added biomass and leaf area, so I'm not convinced it turns out to be anything other than a Net Wash at best.

That said, I have never grown with Co2 injection, so take my advice at its face value. I encourage others to explore and question and if you find different - please look me up and show me what you have discovered, I'd be eager to see.

Good luck.

 

[Walt Chronikite]

Amazing work, PodRacer. You are a credit to growers everywhere. All hail PodRacer! HIP, HIP!!

 

[Pod Racer]

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Take two of those and you wont be calling anyone in the morning.

 

[Rolldaddy]

Should certain foliar solution be used if using soiless medium?

 

[SativaBreather]

anyone use the Optic Foliar range? I think it is very good from my experience