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    #91
    Originally posted by ClackamasCootz View Post
    IncredibowlBoss

    The information on polysaccharides is easily available but let me know.

    Aloe vera is a nutrient accumulator like Alfalfa, Kelp, Comfrey, etc. meaning that you get the full panorama of Elements needed by a plant.

    What separates any plant material from another are the Secondary Metabolites that they contain. IOW, if you only wanted Elements then it really wouldn't matter which of the accumulators you used. Sure - some plants will have a higher profile on this or that but across the board Alfalfa meal could be used in lieu of kelp meal were it not for their specific compounds.

    Alfalfa = Triacontanol or Kelp meal = Alginic acid and the other plants will have their own specific compounds that they manufacture.

    In the case of Aloe vera you have two compounds that are important - Saponins and Salicylic acid. You've probably seen references to using Willow shoots to extract a so-called rooting compound - well this is the same one that you can use without climbing trees or whatever.

    Saponins are usually promoted as a surfactant or wetting agent which is true. But their role is far more complex as it relates to triggering a plant's innate defense systems - System Acquired Resistance (SAR) and Hormonal Acquired Resistance (HAR).

    Saponins in the soil, per se, provide a number of other benefits that you can read about. The problem with trying to do research on the Aloe vera plant in the USA is that the links at Google are loaded with blogs, forum posts and manufacturer's blab sheets. Pretty daunting trying to dig through it.

    You'll do much better at the Australian web sites. Australia is the 3rd largest producer of Aloe vera extracts - liquid, spray-dried and freeze dried versions. China & Mexico are bigger than Australia.

    Besides these 2 specific compounds (of about 450), there are the enzymes and here you can go back to the Google sites, get the specific enzymes Aloe vera contains and then look over at Google Scholar, SCIRUS, JSTOR or another science-based search engines and figure out how it applies to Botany and soil biology.

    But Saponins and Salicylic acid would the main selling points from a sales rep perspective.

    HTH

    CC
    Could you give some application or extraction methods using aloe Vera?
    Last edited by Neo 420; 07-17-2012, 20:46. Reason: ...
    :(

    Comment


      #92
      Some old fart taught me to make a foliar spray with aloe juice @ 2 tablespoons per gallon of water once.....
      You can go to the Mexican grocery store and buy aloe leaves. Simply crush the leaves and collect the juice.

      I sprayed up to 3 times a day before determining that 1 application every 3 days in veg was enough for me....and the plants.

      What I noticed within 3 or less hours after an application was that the leaves on most types pointed upwards...not in a lockout or 'clawing' type of way,but more in the way of positive vegetative growth....just my observation.

      ......here's roughly 30 types that received the aloe treatment.

      Comment


        #93
        Neo 420

        YouTube has quite a number of videos on extracting the 'gel' or 'juice' and probably a few other terms. Pretty straight forward......

        What do you use for rooting a cutting, i.e. the strata?

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by ClackamasCootz View Post
          DM

          Correct. Now factor in that the root hairs release Hydrogen (H+) ions as a 'form of payment' for that cation exchange.

          Next up is why you don't ever want to have elevated levels of Magnesium (Mg) and once you figure that out then 80% of the Dolomite Lime question is answered.
          I would like to take a shot at this one...please be gentle. Ca++ "floculates" clay particles...that is it combines them into bigger masses of particles which opens up the soil allowing for more oxygen in the soil.

          Somewhere around 65% base cation saturation of Ca and 15% Mg seems to make for the best combo (Albrecht ratios). Start going above that one on Mg or below it on Ca and the structure collapses reducing oxygen and putting pressure on the microbes along with other lack of oxygen problems

          Because most dolomite is around a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio it presents a problem. Depending on the cec of the soil anywhere from a 3:1 to 7:1 ratio is more ideal

          At least that is my understanding...I have been wrong before.

          Comment


            #95
            YS
            i think what cc is trying to get at is that Ca is pretty common in all organic matter..it be plant based or mineral;so adding DL to a compost/casting & amended soil isnt really liming anything as its now alive with microbes who also play an import role in CEC,PH,nutrient availability & nutrient balaning..were it counts

            the old humates and compost buffering effect & since mg is in such small amount in DL;it kind of makes it pointless compared to the other very diverse mineral rich rock powders one can use...
            i think the DL trend came with the soilless peat based mixes & bottle "NPK" approach of feeding the plant

            Comment


              #96
              A note on the recycling of the base medium...

              After the plants have completed the cycle (and assuming the grower has cut the plant at the base leaving the stump and root ball in the pot) ...the pots are dumped on a large tarp with the rootballs and stumps intact and they are allowed to go through into the next mixing along with the dried amendments that will be re-introduced to the 'used' medium.

              They are mixed right in along with everything else...and it is at this point in which I introduce other materials such as leaf litter,comfrey,horsetail,etc. as well as more kelp meal,fish bone meal,crab shell meal,neem seed meal,and regular fish meal...oatmeal,etc.

              I find that the stumps and roots fully break down by the end of the second cycle...this is food for microbial life and fungi.

              On the second round I add less of the original portions of dried commercially available amendments based upon the volume of the soil and what deficiencies the plants may have indicated during the initial cycle. The one thing that continually gets put back in in near the original quantity is kelp meal.
              Last edited by Gascanastan; 02-18-2013, 10:39.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by Scrappy4 View Post
                Yes, in my last soil mix I used premier brand peat, to be fair there was a small amount of used pro mix. The premier mix is just sphagnum peat with no additives that I am aware of. It had a PH of 5 at the start. I added my inputs, that i listed earlier, wet it with compost tea, and left it set for months, wetting it with water when it dried out, and when I did check the PH, like magic it was 6.5.

                Same thing in my compost heap. No matter where it starts it ends up around 6.3 to 6.6PH.

                Nearly the same thing in my yard. My soil is always around PH 7 to 7.3. Where I live was an ancient sea bed, so we have an abundance of Calcium from old sea shells and coral. Anyway at times i tried to lower the PH around berry bushes, rhubarb and what not. I added a layer of premier mix about 3 inches deep then covered it with thermo compost. I tried again last fall, this spring it's at 7 again. Now I gave up trying to change the PH, the berry bushes are fine, so i guess I was trying to fix a non problem. Even though everything i have read says those berries need low PH, go figure......scrappy
                Just as I learned with fish. Every time I didn't use my observations of the organisms in question and headed straight for a number, I ended up causing problems. Shifting pH is one of the quickest ways to kill of an entire system, tank-ful of fish, too.

                In other words, if it ain't broke..! I mean, how'd we humans eat for all these years before we knew a thing about hydrogen ions and pH? Doesn't mean I don't love the science and the knowing, just makes me wonder.
                Originally posted by Gascanastan View Post
                Take a quart jar and put in a handful of regular non-adjusted peat moss...and in another jar put a handful of name brand peat moss...

                ...now fill the jars with water and shake. Let it sit an hour or two and then take the standard issue Ph meter and take readings...

                The regular Peat Moss should be around 4.0

                The various name brands will have different readings floating from 4.5 to 7.0 depending on batch and 'name' of the product.

                This is the reason why I've pushed and used the 3-way lime mix based off Steve Solomon and Coot. ....no matter what brand of peat moss I use.

                It's hard to really over-lime peat in a proper organic soil from my experience..considering you follow the 1 cup lime mix per cubic foot of peat rule-o-thumb.

                I'm confident that I could now actually replace dolomite with oyster shell powder..and not worry my aching little heart over it.
                Did you know that one of the best ways to soften and acidify an alkaline, high-pH water column for fishes and invertebrates is to filter through peat moss? One of my oldest and best tricks/tips for those who wish to keep the more delicate Rio Negro and Amazon basin animals that have been wild-caught.

                I've been warned NOT to use my oyster shell flour for possibly causing problems by using too much. Since I've yet to bite the bullet and get a proper soil test, and so don't know what I'm working with, I've been trying to simply work on building organic matter within the clay matrix. This is specific to my outdoor cultivation, I am nowhere near getting my indoor rooms going.
                Originally posted by Microbeman View Post
                I hope this is not too off track but can anyone give me the skinny on using diatomaceous earth (DE) in a soil mix. I can get it very cheaply by the ton. It is 67% DE and 33% montmorillonite [basically bentonite]. I wonder about the potential harm to beneficial organisms. Anybody?
                Well..... I did it using the pool grade DE, because I made the mistake of thinking they were the same thing (insect Tx grade vs pool filtration) several years ago. So I had this 50lb box of DE, and what I've been doing is just throwing in a few handfuls wherever I can, mostly just to get rid of it. Considering the macrobial fauna activity levels, I don't think I've harmed my microbial flora or fauna.

                HTH a little bit.

                Comment


                  #98
                  5 gallon pots that were emptied after a no-till run....now going straight into re-amending with kelp,fish bone meal,and fish meal...that's it.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by DARC MIND View Post
                    YS
                    i think what cc is trying to get at is that Ca is pretty common in all organic matter..it be plant based or mineral;so adding DL to a compost/casting & amended soil isnt really liming anything as its now alive with microbes who also play an import role in CEC,PH,nutrient availability & nutrient balaning..were it counts

                    the old humates and compost buffering effect & since mg is in such small amount in DL;it kind of makes it pointless compared to the other very diverse mineral rich rock powders one can use...
                    i think the DL trend came with the soilless peat based mixes & bottle "NPK" approach of feeding the plant
                    I totally agree that if there is enough Ca in your organic inputs then you don't need to add any more at all...doing so would be counterproductive. And those organic inputs probably have very close to the right Ca:Mg ratio anyways.

                    I still like to take samples though to see where I am...the old corporate guy in me demands metrics...useful or not

                    Comment


                      Be aware that there is an alternative way to reuse soil. We did almost exactly as Gascan did for several years when using 5 gallon pails for growing.

                      When we switched to an indoor facsimile of our outdoor beds we used stacked bins and left the soil fully intact, treating it with liquid amendments and teams of composting worms between planting.

                      This allowed fungal networks and layered (heirarchical) microbial populations to remain intact.

                      Were I to do this again [not presently growing indoors] I would attempt replanting almost immediately following harvest because the interaction between roots and microbes has a lot to do with the life of soil [as demonstrated previously by Mr Fista]
                      ****************************** *******************
                      “If only ignorant and gullible people accepted far-fetched ideas, little else would be needed to explain the abundance of folly in modern society.” ~ Barry L. Beyerstein

                      "When the facts change, I change my mind.
                      What do you do, sir?"

                      ~John Maynard Keynes~

                      The thing which man is most sure of, is man's greatest mystery.....gravity. ~ tjw

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Microbeman View Post
                        Be aware that there is an alternative way to reuse soil. We did almost exactly as Gascan did for several years when using 5 gallon pails for growing.

                        When we switched to an indoor facsimile of our outdoor beds we used stacked bins and left the soil fully intact, treating it with liquid amendments and teams of composting worms between planting.

                        This allowed fungal networks and layered (heirarchical) microbial populations to remain intact.

                        Were I to do this again [not presently growing indoors] I would attempt replanting almost immediately following harvest because the interaction between roots and microbes has a lot to do with the life of soil [as demonstrated previously by Mr Fista]

                        Brilliant.....
                        I like it...the more I stroll down this path the more I realize MM has pioneered the practices we (organic nut jobs and purists) are eventually going to come to on this journey.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by YosemiteSam View Post
                          I would like to take a shot at this one...please be gentle. Ca++ "floculates" clay particles...that is it combines them into bigger masses of particles which opens up the soil allowing for more oxygen in the soil
                          YS
                          This is the only part of your post that I had to think about on how flocculation could be used to describe what is going on in the rhizosphere.

                          I think I figured out what you were trying to illustrate so if I misinterpreted anything that you meant or wrote then I apologize.

                          Clay particles normally lay together flat, but are repelled by the negative charges across their face. Salt (Na+) is present in minor amounts. The graphic below illustrates this:


                          Soils with high clay content can become so dense and compact that they may resist plant rooting. This may happen for one of two reasons:

                          First, the salt in the soil has neutralized the negative electrical charges which normally cause clay particles to repel each other as shown in this graphic:


                          Second, the percentage of clay in the soil is so high that the positive charge on the edge of a clay particle combines with the negative charge on the flat surface of another, forming a tight three-dimensional structure as shown in this graphic:


                          Clay compaction. When the percentage of clay in the soil is very high, and especially when an excessive amount of salt is present, the positive charge on the edge of a clay particle combines with the negative charge on the flat surface of another, forming a tight three_dimensional structure.

                          Humic acid causes the clay particles to stand on end, allowing water penetration. It does this two ways.

                          First, it segregates salts and removes them from the surface of the clay particle. The net negative charge resulting causes the clay particles to repel each other, loosening the soil structure.

                          Second, a carbon group on the humic acid molecule (carboxyl group) bonds with the edge of the positively charged particles. This breaks the attractive force between the positive charge at the edge of a particle and the negative charge or the flat surface of another as shown in this graphic:


                          Humic acid encourages water penetration. As humic acid penetrates compacted clay platelets, it segregates salts (positive ions) and removes them from the clay particle surface. This restores a negative charge to the face of the clay platelets, causing them to repel each other.

                          This action, called protective colloidal action, loosens soil, letting roots penetrate more easily. Humic acid's effect on clay soil is more evident as time passes. In heavy clay soils, six months or more may be needed before you will see a noticeable improvement in the soil's density.
                          Are we close? LOL

                          CC

                          Comment


                            LEGO"S^^^.....???

                            ....another awesome post right there from the Coot kidz.

                            Comment


                              Dare I bring in the role of Sulfur into the discussion?

                              The only thing that would (and should) hold me back is that I'll have to read the usual FUD about how Sulfur is a fungicide and it'll kill the microbes or something equally inane and inaccurate.

                              I'd rather have a lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

                              Comment


                                That was my first introduction to sulfur in college..it kills mold on yer plants.

                                Wait for it....Existential Blues....best one I could find...

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwXJh...feature=fvwrel

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