Æromatrix Explored
- Thread starter Pod Racer
- Start date
G
Guest
Here is my problem with this thread... http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=46382
some people see it as a problem, while others see it as a positive.. one of the two groups need to back up there claims.. this forum doesn't need any more sproutcos
some people see it as a problem, while others see it as a positive.. one of the two groups need to back up there claims.. this forum doesn't need any more sproutcos
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G
Guest
I think you hit it on the head Indica.......
I think you hit it on the head Indica.......
We need some real life tests. If I can get these clones to root I will definately dedicate part of my garden to the endevor. Both theories have scientific priciples behind them but application of the science is where the green meets the plant.
Many, many scientific priciples sound and are viable, it is the application of that science that calls for the inginuity we strive for here. Of course the atom can be split..... whether it results in a nucular explosion or powers a large portion of a country depends on those applying the science.
The tests are coming if I can get the material together to run it.
Peace
I think you hit it on the head Indica.......
We need some real life tests. If I can get these clones to root I will definately dedicate part of my garden to the endevor. Both theories have scientific priciples behind them but application of the science is where the green meets the plant.
Many, many scientific priciples sound and are viable, it is the application of that science that calls for the inginuity we strive for here. Of course the atom can be split..... whether it results in a nucular explosion or powers a large portion of a country depends on those applying the science.
The tests are coming if I can get the material together to run it.
Peace
cabanetforester
Active member
BlindDate said:
HAHAHA
Seriously though Blind Date much respect and thanks for your contributions here at IC mag. Many times I have learned.
Mostly over my head, but interesting. Looking forward to the trials. Peace CF
Pud Racer Says:
Oh my,,, what a response to a simple comment. The comment was not even about you, it merely suggested that this experiment may have, probably had been run before.
Don't let it stop you Pud Racer. We're all waiting for your next post containing the data from this worthwhile experiment. But if I had to give odds, I would say that all we are going to get from you is more copy and paste horto-techno (my word) babble.
Oh my,,, what a response to a simple comment. The comment was not even about you, it merely suggested that this experiment may have, probably had been run before.
Don't let it stop you Pud Racer. We're all waiting for your next post containing the data from this worthwhile experiment. But if I had to give odds, I would say that all we are going to get from you is more copy and paste horto-techno (my word) babble.
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payn4school
Member
just keep on rollin pr, im sure there is good info to be discovered. And if not, then so what, at least we will know. I would love to help with the experiments but i cannot in my current situation, but hopefully that will change soon.
see ya round
see ya round
Pod Racer
Member
I'm not quite ready myself, I have to locate resources discretely, but I am working on it. If only to get a small quantity of Co2 just to run a ph/tds measurements. The problem is, and to an extent I am hopeful BlindDate was correct; I am unable to do a truly accurate experiment. It would be much better if I could just find where 100's have done this test or something similar enough to get the support necessary to proceed with a larger rig design.
From what I've found, by proxy, is there is substantial evidence in my opinion that my intuition is correct and elevated levels of carbon could be increased in absorption, as well as transporting nutrients and compounds that would result in heavier, denser, healthier and more prolific plants.
In the most elementary of metaphors here, think of how huge the plants AND animals grew in the prehistoric era. If you are not a Jesus Horse sort of tool. lol Why did they grow so amazingly gigantic? Co2 enriched environment. Plants being 47% Carbon by dry weight alone means there must be an enormous demand for available carbon for the basic building blocks of life.
I think of it this way. You can feed a city by piling a heap of food on the edge and waiting for a million people to feed themselves. You can truck in huge semi trucks full of food and dump it in various places around the city and employ a network of transportation companies to deliver and remove waste to feed a million people. Or, you can fed ex directly to each person at the exact same time every day, everyone without any need except the Fed Ex in and the Fed Ex out. This is the goal of Æromatrix - Above Aeroponic it is the Carbon respiration cycle as well. Think Aeroponic on Aeroponic. Squared.
I am not claiming that this will work or is even a viable theory. However if it were not for a certain patent officer or statesmen to have thought to explore something that to him seemed quite obvious, we wouldn't have nuclear energy or electricity at all. The Wright brothers should have known only birds can fly, people will never travel at the speed of sound in the sky, what are you an idiot? Well, maybe, let's fine out. :wink:
From what I've found, by proxy, is there is substantial evidence in my opinion that my intuition is correct and elevated levels of carbon could be increased in absorption, as well as transporting nutrients and compounds that would result in heavier, denser, healthier and more prolific plants.
In the most elementary of metaphors here, think of how huge the plants AND animals grew in the prehistoric era. If you are not a Jesus Horse sort of tool. lol Why did they grow so amazingly gigantic? Co2 enriched environment. Plants being 47% Carbon by dry weight alone means there must be an enormous demand for available carbon for the basic building blocks of life.
I think of it this way. You can feed a city by piling a heap of food on the edge and waiting for a million people to feed themselves. You can truck in huge semi trucks full of food and dump it in various places around the city and employ a network of transportation companies to deliver and remove waste to feed a million people. Or, you can fed ex directly to each person at the exact same time every day, everyone without any need except the Fed Ex in and the Fed Ex out. This is the goal of Æromatrix - Above Aeroponic it is the Carbon respiration cycle as well. Think Aeroponic on Aeroponic. Squared.
I am not claiming that this will work or is even a viable theory. However if it were not for a certain patent officer or statesmen to have thought to explore something that to him seemed quite obvious, we wouldn't have nuclear energy or electricity at all. The Wright brothers should have known only birds can fly, people will never travel at the speed of sound in the sky, what are you an idiot? Well, maybe, let's fine out. :wink:
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Pod Racer
Member
Well Uncle Bob, I hear your point and I will take it under advisement thank you.
Edit: I agee with you Uncle Bob, thank you for bring that to my attention, I hope BD will accept my humble apology.
Hell, I never said I was stable. What do you think an Evil Scientist is-Sweet to ya?
Edit: I agee with you Uncle Bob, thank you for bring that to my attention, I hope BD will accept my humble apology.
Hell, I never said I was stable. What do you think an Evil Scientist is-Sweet to ya?
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"The channel approximately 2' wide by 2' deep would hold the entirety of the nutrient reserve."
thats lots of nutes..$$$
" Within the channel located at the bottom would be a long multi armed pipe (PVC would be fine 1/2") with very small holes drilled along the 'ribs' that would inject Co2 and O2 in alternating cycles—A similar cycle to high pressure Aeroponics."
co2 up...oxygen down...roots require o2...not co2...so no improvement???..rather the opposite IMO..
"The theory I have is that the Co2 Carbon loading phase would decrease the solution ph (causing greater nutrient uptake into the plant's root structure) simultaneously releasing Carbon into the solution (aiding in uptake and construction of basic molecular building blocks as plants are 47% Carbon by dry weight). "
co2 to carbonic acid will drop pH and aquariasts do it all the time...you can buy gear there...however...you can drop pH with fulvic acid...this is super high in carbon and in a dissolvable UPTAKEABLE solution...
carbon knocks down dissolved oxygen where chems could be used for better tighter buffer....up and down is not good and requires expensive equipt to confront...chems work better...(aka nutrient based buffers)
"Alternating with injections of air or O2 that would continue breaking up the Carbon released and Oxygenating the nutrient solution thereby re-stabilizing it again before the next Carbon loading phase takes place. "
carbon loading phase??? i dont know what youre really talking about??? carbon diffuses into leaves and roots but only in certain forms...look up carbon-nitrogen ratio...root carbon forms are humics and naturally chelated sugars in nature...in short a carbon based material needs to decompose...fires up the carbon rate through chem decomp...not creating co2...co2 actually kills roots and why downwind from volcanos...plants die...co2 chokes the roots off...5000ppm in roots...shit...5kppm will kill leaves..
"I have no idea if or how this will work, however it is my intention to experiment. "
id compare fulvics/humates too...
"This is 90 degrees from Aeroponic and I'm not sure what it would be classified as so I have named it Æromatrix and I intend to utilize the exact same design mirrored under the canopy with Co2 and O2 (fresh air) cycling (which should, I believe, prevent the plant from reducing its stomata coverage in response to elevated Co2 levels.)"
reducing stomata is where carbon/water efficiency comes into play...its a good thing unless you have throttling amounts of co2...
"As it is apparent that the root system in True Aeroponic Environments almost respires on a 5-minute cycle, in a submerged nutrient solution with heavy aeration, agitation, and Carbon availability the rates of growth and health should rival that of an ideal Aeroponic environment."
youre confusing dry out and surface tension (water) phenoms rather than "root respiration" which occurs nonstop..
"Anyone interested in running experiments of this nature would be welcomed to join in and investigate to see if we haven't actually found a uniquely different method of aeroponic respiration via carbonic action and carbon loading. How much fun will that be, eh"
i would research some more before you test..readjust your theory in the meantime...
quite simply your theory is removed by oxygenation versus "carbon loading" via gas injection...so isolate those variables...youll need notrogen gas to devoid a sperate experiement...ie normal ratios cotrol...oxygen enriched...co2 enriched...one degassed of co2/o2..etc etc...then you can better make judgements...tests have been done..roots which were not drenched in water and in high oxygen areas grew fastest--search "hillel soffer"/"aeroponics"
thats lots of nutes..$$$
" Within the channel located at the bottom would be a long multi armed pipe (PVC would be fine 1/2") with very small holes drilled along the 'ribs' that would inject Co2 and O2 in alternating cycles—A similar cycle to high pressure Aeroponics."
co2 up...oxygen down...roots require o2...not co2...so no improvement???..rather the opposite IMO..
"The theory I have is that the Co2 Carbon loading phase would decrease the solution ph (causing greater nutrient uptake into the plant's root structure) simultaneously releasing Carbon into the solution (aiding in uptake and construction of basic molecular building blocks as plants are 47% Carbon by dry weight). "
co2 to carbonic acid will drop pH and aquariasts do it all the time...you can buy gear there...however...you can drop pH with fulvic acid...this is super high in carbon and in a dissolvable UPTAKEABLE solution...
carbon knocks down dissolved oxygen where chems could be used for better tighter buffer....up and down is not good and requires expensive equipt to confront...chems work better...(aka nutrient based buffers)
"Alternating with injections of air or O2 that would continue breaking up the Carbon released and Oxygenating the nutrient solution thereby re-stabilizing it again before the next Carbon loading phase takes place. "
carbon loading phase??? i dont know what youre really talking about??? carbon diffuses into leaves and roots but only in certain forms...look up carbon-nitrogen ratio...root carbon forms are humics and naturally chelated sugars in nature...in short a carbon based material needs to decompose...fires up the carbon rate through chem decomp...not creating co2...co2 actually kills roots and why downwind from volcanos...plants die...co2 chokes the roots off...5000ppm in roots...shit...5kppm will kill leaves..
"I have no idea if or how this will work, however it is my intention to experiment. "
id compare fulvics/humates too...
"This is 90 degrees from Aeroponic and I'm not sure what it would be classified as so I have named it Æromatrix and I intend to utilize the exact same design mirrored under the canopy with Co2 and O2 (fresh air) cycling (which should, I believe, prevent the plant from reducing its stomata coverage in response to elevated Co2 levels.)"
reducing stomata is where carbon/water efficiency comes into play...its a good thing unless you have throttling amounts of co2...
"As it is apparent that the root system in True Aeroponic Environments almost respires on a 5-minute cycle, in a submerged nutrient solution with heavy aeration, agitation, and Carbon availability the rates of growth and health should rival that of an ideal Aeroponic environment."
youre confusing dry out and surface tension (water) phenoms rather than "root respiration" which occurs nonstop..
"Anyone interested in running experiments of this nature would be welcomed to join in and investigate to see if we haven't actually found a uniquely different method of aeroponic respiration via carbonic action and carbon loading. How much fun will that be, eh"
i would research some more before you test..readjust your theory in the meantime...
quite simply your theory is removed by oxygenation versus "carbon loading" via gas injection...so isolate those variables...youll need notrogen gas to devoid a sperate experiement...ie normal ratios cotrol...oxygen enriched...co2 enriched...one degassed of co2/o2..etc etc...then you can better make judgements...tests have been done..roots which were not drenched in water and in high oxygen areas grew fastest--search "hillel soffer"/"aeroponics"
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Pod Racer
Member
Ah, yah...ok. 
Ever wonder why the smart kid in class never spoke up? 
I was going to write a post explaining how this is exactly why I retreat from sharing anything here on this site of my methods or theories. However recently, and not for the first time, a deciple of mine (if you will) contacted me from out of the blue to share with me that he had been growing TAG style for over the past year - despite my absence. And was glad to see my return to these threads. Which I found very flattering and incredibly considerate praise as I was impressed enough that someone had even attempted to continue my, often slammed, half-baked ideas and methods of growing. So I know some get it somewhere and I am not going to let ignorance, however biligerent, get in my way of working with those that appreciate my efforts and to whom I am happy to share and learn.
So on that note, I will be launching a comprehensive Aeroponic thread here shortly with the help of seasoned veterans that can answer from personal experience how hairbrained my ideas turn out to be or not. I am after all a Mad Scientist, ain't no fun if you don't get to be a little insane.
I suppose we'll have to build it in Hydro and maybe somene will eventually move it to an approriate forum of its own.
Ever wonder why the smart kid in class never spoke up? I was going to write a post explaining how this is exactly why I retreat from sharing anything here on this site of my methods or theories. However recently, and not for the first time, a deciple of mine (if you will) contacted me from out of the blue to share with me that he had been growing TAG style for over the past year - despite my absence. And was glad to see my return to these threads. Which I found very flattering and incredibly considerate praise as I was impressed enough that someone had even attempted to continue my, often slammed, half-baked ideas and methods of growing. So I know some get it somewhere and I am not going to let ignorance, however biligerent, get in my way of working with those that appreciate my efforts and to whom I am happy to share and learn.
So on that note, I will be launching a comprehensive Aeroponic thread here shortly with the help of seasoned veterans that can answer from personal experience how hairbrained my ideas turn out to be or not. I am after all a Mad Scientist, ain't no fun if you don't get to be a little insane.
I suppose we'll have to build it in Hydro and maybe somene will eventually move it to an approriate forum of its own.
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pod...calm down...i dont care what you did for OG and TAG etc etc...why...well i busted ass at forums too and going anon here...so no claims to glory....hell.. if im so smart ill repeat it again here..right...??
so yea youre smarter in hydro than most here at IC...who cares..just bring the pain AGAIN...dont like my posts--suck it up and prove them wrong and meanwhile redevelope the idea..its a good thing...same game plan as last time...you apparently hate it..but it works..period..
and we've talked before....we certainly on the same team...and the two of us together far better than just you and me on the solo...
and well i thought your TAG idea sucked and wouldnt work eyt youre one fucker to prove me WRONG straight up...so do it again...i feel your anguish..believe me...
so...im telling yas...google another week & youll know twice as much.//
so yea youre smarter in hydro than most here at IC...who cares..just bring the pain AGAIN...dont like my posts--suck it up and prove them wrong and meanwhile redevelope the idea..its a good thing...same game plan as last time...you apparently hate it..but it works..period..
and we've talked before....we certainly on the same team...and the two of us together far better than just you and me on the solo...
and well i thought your TAG idea sucked and wouldnt work eyt youre one fucker to prove me WRONG straight up...so do it again...i feel your anguish..believe me...
so...im telling yas...google another week & youll know twice as much.//
Pod Racer
Member
True dat, true dat. lol
The TAG Empire shall rise again. :wink:
I do believe that liquid carbon supplementation might be the answer I seek. I agree that the volume of resources to begin with for this particular design too work is too great for the purpose of efficient growing.
Doesn't mean the principle isn't sound, just means the delivery might be better served in a different fashion, i.e, liquid additive. There isn't a need to 'infuse' the Co2 now that I think about it in more depth. Just that there is available Carbon, which can be created without all the work done by the rig. But the Carbon loading aspect needs to be explored in much greater detail. And thanks, I do get it and the challenge, however elementary from others, does just force me to re-evaluate my methods every time I have to re-explain an already established truth. Sometimes it is advantageous to re-examine old proven methods to make sure there aren't more effective ways of achieving the same results or better.
It wasn't to brag about being the brightest or most knowledgeable, the point I was attempting to make was that by questioning what was the 'established' belief and not just following the crowd I was fortunate to discover myriad misconceptions and misunderstandings about even the most basic of applied aeroponic principles. All because others were afraid to ask why, or that no one knew the correct answer. Not that I was such a badass grower and scientist. If anything it is the point that someone with no direct education in anything even remotely close to plant pathology or botany could almost immediate see the inherent flaws in all these alleged 'aeroponic' systems - when not one single rig was.
And the consequence of bringing that truth and reality to an objectionable and ignorant society that was very resistant to look at any other possibilities. And what did we discover? A hundred years of doing it wrong didn't stop someone from making it right - despite all the naysayer.
So, I continue to dispel myths and inaccuracies in this arena as obviously I have a particular acumen for such a 'new' look at an old problem. That is all I am trying to explore here, succeed or fail, it was only to explore and examine the Oxygen/Carbon bridge and see if there wasn't a method, a newer more effective method, of supplying the correct environment and optimal growing conditions for our accelerated growing methods. After all, like most saw — I managed to correct all a fore to mentioned issues with the most ideal growing system to date and all because I didn't just take someone else's word for it. So I don't mind the opposition or the desire to demonstrate my belief or theories in practice however do tire of personal insults and attacks out of ignorance and fear of something new. I really just don't expect that shit here. Not with pot smokers. But it just demonstrates to me how entirely accurate statistical information truly is.
Peace.
The TAG Empire shall rise again. :wink:
I do believe that liquid carbon supplementation might be the answer I seek. I agree that the volume of resources to begin with for this particular design too work is too great for the purpose of efficient growing.
Doesn't mean the principle isn't sound, just means the delivery might be better served in a different fashion, i.e, liquid additive. There isn't a need to 'infuse' the Co2 now that I think about it in more depth. Just that there is available Carbon, which can be created without all the work done by the rig. But the Carbon loading aspect needs to be explored in much greater detail. And thanks, I do get it and the challenge, however elementary from others, does just force me to re-evaluate my methods every time I have to re-explain an already established truth. Sometimes it is advantageous to re-examine old proven methods to make sure there aren't more effective ways of achieving the same results or better.
It wasn't to brag about being the brightest or most knowledgeable, the point I was attempting to make was that by questioning what was the 'established' belief and not just following the crowd I was fortunate to discover myriad misconceptions and misunderstandings about even the most basic of applied aeroponic principles. All because others were afraid to ask why, or that no one knew the correct answer. Not that I was such a badass grower and scientist. If anything it is the point that someone with no direct education in anything even remotely close to plant pathology or botany could almost immediate see the inherent flaws in all these alleged 'aeroponic' systems - when not one single rig was.
And the consequence of bringing that truth and reality to an objectionable and ignorant society that was very resistant to look at any other possibilities. And what did we discover? A hundred years of doing it wrong didn't stop someone from making it right - despite all the naysayer.
So, I continue to dispel myths and inaccuracies in this arena as obviously I have a particular acumen for such a 'new' look at an old problem. That is all I am trying to explore here, succeed or fail, it was only to explore and examine the Oxygen/Carbon bridge and see if there wasn't a method, a newer more effective method, of supplying the correct environment and optimal growing conditions for our accelerated growing methods. After all, like most saw — I managed to correct all a fore to mentioned issues with the most ideal growing system to date and all because I didn't just take someone else's word for it. So I don't mind the opposition or the desire to demonstrate my belief or theories in practice however do tire of personal insults and attacks out of ignorance and fear of something new. I really just don't expect that shit here. Not with pot smokers. But it just demonstrates to me how entirely accurate statistical information truly is.
Peace.
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whereisbrianV.
Active member
:3i8hT: So are you trolling or are you going to make a coherent debate. Your first post was good in intent but bad in energy. The second was pure flame bait if I ever saw it. I see that you are an intelligent human being, and that you have an interest in this plant. A passion is not something to go about with an negative attitude about, you should share and grow in this pool of positive exchange of information. It is people like you who helped work the kinks out of the whole TAG style. Your questioning and sharing is welcomed and appreciated, but your negative energy is not. I would love to see you in the soon to come TAG thread just please refrained from personal attacks.
TAG is way beyond the experimental phase, there have been several runs by a number of people with great success. Now is it the greatest growing system in the world....... not yet but the potential is there. I have great visions for the future of TAG, we will just have to continue to proceed with open hearts and minds.
Pod- I have a few ideas to run by you I will try my hand at some fancy DRAW techniques and post them soon.
TAG is way beyond the experimental phase, there have been several runs by a number of people with great success. Now is it the greatest growing system in the world....... not yet but the potential is there. I have great visions for the future of TAG, we will just have to continue to proceed with open hearts and minds.
Pod- I have a few ideas to run by you I will try my hand at some fancy DRAW techniques and post them soon.
Pod Racer
Member
Excellent brianV. - Interesting you mention that, I was looking for old pictures from that Evaporative cooler deal I was working on and found a few entire threads of individuals running TAG rigs. Teaching, talking and sharing the information from way back on OG. I never knew that it had influenced so many, that was really refreshing and inspired me to do another full on TAG based thread. The only validation I need is to see that it does work, is effective, and others have the amazing results I've experienced and the real joy of just growing in this method. They are the really good questions and queries that force me to look deeper to support the intuition in my style of growing and its not always correct, but there is always something to gain.
Just like this thread, though I don't think without large application such as lettuce production or something outdoors, the volume might be too large for the average hydroponic grower. Unless the Co2 O2 infusion increases the nutrient uptake and lowers the nutrient demands.
You might be in a better position to experiment with that in a green house scenario, like the use of tubes where possibly the same DWC technique could be used with Co2 infusion for forced respiration. But now that I have a good stock of healthy plants going I'm going to focus a bit on setting up my TAG system and doing a little DIY thread to help others get on the new style of growing in aeroponics. I wish they would put up an Aeroforum for us. How long is that going to take?
Just like this thread, though I don't think without large application such as lettuce production or something outdoors, the volume might be too large for the average hydroponic grower. Unless the Co2 O2 infusion increases the nutrient uptake and lowers the nutrient demands.
You might be in a better position to experiment with that in a green house scenario, like the use of tubes where possibly the same DWC technique could be used with Co2 infusion for forced respiration. But now that I have a good stock of healthy plants going I'm going to focus a bit on setting up my TAG system and doing a little DIY thread to help others get on the new style of growing in aeroponics. I wish they would put up an Aeroforum for us. How long is that going to take?
Pod Racer
Member
TAG closet renovation
TAG closet renovation
Here is the idea I had for a TAG Closet scrog design I thought would work well where your Twin Towers are now. Shouldn't take a lot of alteration either. See if it makes any sense to you.
It will allow you two shallow TAG zones that drain off to the res. while the fan pulls fresh air though the roots zones and res. out through the top where you could place an ozone generator. Out to the outside, no worry about odor or O3 in your house.
TAG closet renovation
Here is the idea I had for a TAG Closet scrog design I thought would work well where your Twin Towers are now. Shouldn't take a lot of alteration either. See if it makes any sense to you.
It will allow you two shallow TAG zones that drain off to the res. while the fan pulls fresh air though the roots zones and res. out through the top where you could place an ozone generator. Out to the outside, no worry about odor or O3 in your house.
