Old nutes turn lethal

CaptJamesTKirk · Jan 1, 2007

I have had an experience that needs to be made public so that we may convince fertalizer manafactures to date all time sensitive products on the individual package.

I used FoxFarm Nutes that are no more than a year old nd they litterly killed my garden. I struggled several months trying to fix the problem, not knowing the same bottles of nutes had gone bad and were directly responsible for all the problems.

After reverting to Guano teas and kelp and fish juice - I have been able to recover a couple of my best moms, but alas I lost many more than that.

I contacted FoxFarm and was informed that Grow Big and Tiger Bloom have a 2 year shelf life and BigBloom is good for three years. I re-contacted the factory and they choose to ignore that request. I RE-CONTACTED them and started to get grumpy - seeing as not only do I have useless bottles of unused ferts, but the fact that - IMO it is unscrupulious retailers that buy old ferts from Foxfarms on clearance in bulk and sell it at retail - even if it sits on the shelf for a year or longer.

We as consumers need a way to insure honesty and quality from the manafacturers we support with our money. And it is not right that amanafacturer would know their products can become lethal and not give consumers a way to know this befor ruining a garden.

Please - check your fertalizers for shelf life - just because there isn't one on the package - does not mean you are safe. If you use a product that does go bad, email that manafacturer and tell them you will no longer buy products that can go bad and do not have a clearly readable made on date,or use by date.

The first one to adopt this procedure may set the standard and pick up new customers.

I liked FoxFarm better than guano teas etc, until this episode, I'd rather have lower yeilds and PIA bubbleing etc. than garden going sick from stale nute the manafacturers know will go bad.

Here are some liks to other threads about which product have limited shelf life.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=45230

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=44500

SEEDYNONO · Jan 1, 2007

this could be the best thread i've seen in weeks.

same story with botanicare stuff.. how old are they.. really?

it's ridiculous they don't stamp the 'made-on' date on these products.

CaptJamesTKirk · Jan 1, 2007

FoxFarm offerd to replace the nutes - if I had a recipt.

From a year ago.

yeah right.

This is thier attitude and it needs a wake up call.

I sugest you contact Botanicare and let them know we are on to their low life tatics to saddle consumers with old products at full retail price and screw their gardens. We have a need to know this information and we will gladly pay for quality -not old nutes.

It does no good to date them when you buy them, because a 5 year old bottle looks just like a brand new one.

Guest · Jan 1, 2007

you bring up such a good point. i don't know what they're thinking not putting dates on a product that is perishable. i've got some old stuff that i'm not going to bother trying out. thank you so much for bringing this up, may have saved me some serious trouble.

i'm sure my shit is frozen too, are organics supposed to be stored above a certain temp?

if enough of us write them would they take notice? i wonder if this puts a serious dent in their wallets due to them having to throw away old stuff rather than clearance it.

if you ask me, they should offer the retailers a replacement after a certain time, if their shit doesn't sell who's fault is it? i'd gladly pay a little more if it's guaranteed to be fresh.

AYA · Jan 1, 2007

Good luck with your garden man, it's ridiculous not to stamp the manufacture date on such a sensitive product...They do it on pet food, they should do it too for plant food!!

Sadly Cannabizness is still only business...IMHO one shouldn't support it, cannabis is just a plant it doesn't need moneythirsty white collars trying to play tricks on the grower, reselling old nutes, figuring out how to lace skunk and selling the lace at 650e/kg etc...

Seedbanks are all we need really, the rest (nutes, hydro etc) can be done taking Nature's way, guano, ladybirds etc...

May 2007 bring plentifull and tastefull harvests to all of you guys! Jah no dead!

peace

Fonzie · Jan 1, 2007

AYA said:
Good luck with your garden man, it's ridiculous not to stamp the manufacture date on such a sensitive product...They do it on pet food, they should do it too for plant food!!

Sadly Cannabizness is still only business...IMHO one shouldn't support it, cannabis is just a plant it doesn't need moneythirsty white collars trying to play tricks on the grower, reselling old nutes, figuring out how to lace skunk and selling the lace at 650e/kg etc...

Seedbanks are all we need really, the rest (nutes, hydro etc) can be done taking Nature's way, guano, ladybirds etc...

May 2007 bring plentifull and tastefull harvests to all of you guys! Jah no dead!

peace

Miracle grow is just what you need then, I have found that quality products designed for and formulated to grow MJ can provide a harvest far exceeding the cost of the nutes. - provided they are still viable.

Seed banks are just as frought with fraud - make that can be just as frought with fraud. I know the sellers I will deal with and those I won't. Some may agree - some may not, but the nute thing needs to be addressed with the manafacturers ASAP.

Guanos and teas are fine - and have no shelf life - but onle net about 1/2 the quanitity I can get using a nute formulated for the PH and requirements of the plant in differing stages

May 2007 bring plentifull and tastefull harvests to all of you guys! A-men!

green_grow · Jan 1, 2007

interesting as hell . i am still very new to all of this but i just had to take a look at my bottle of earth juice grow (sold to me for good bucks by a hydroponics store that couldnt seem to be bothered with a cabinet grower ... this had been my experience at almost every hydro store i went to, by the way) . no expiry date OR date of manufacture on the bottle . i have always kept it in a cool, dark place . it looks like dark, thin mud and smells like hell . i visited their website and, somewhat curiously, they dont have a 'contact us' link or a phone number . screw this; no expiry date, no sale, from now on.

minds_I · Jan 1, 2007

Hello all,

Fonzie said:
.....

Guanos and teas are fine - and have no shelf life - but onle net about 1/2 the quanitity I can get using a nute formulated for the PH and requirements of the plant in differing stages

......

Really, and is this just your opinion or is there documentation to back this claim? I ask because my personal experience runs counter to to this.
I agree with the time stamp- seems less then honest for the companies to do this- which in reflection is why you do not see the time stamp.

Anyway, its going to take more the talking ot the manufacturers- lawsuits and political pressure.

minds_I

Fonzie · Jan 1, 2007

minds,

My personal experience gets the best possible results with a mix, using guano teas, alfalfa, molassass, fish juice and Foxfarms and a couple other odds and ends in moderation.

I really like the results I have gotten adding Tiger Bloom to the flowering regiment, and adding Grow Big just prior to flower has been very worth while but I have also experienced the burn of old ferts (all clones of known plants using same dosegages and procedures I have used for several years and after the ferts were removed the plants recovered) and agree with the idea of pressuring makers to be honest with customers. As I would buy a product that was dated, over one that was not, and while my single grow will not make a dent in the bank ballance of these companys, the combined strength of just this forum might convince at least one maker to date their products. Once one does - the others will either follow suit or loose market share. (I hope)

I don't believe there is one person that can say exactly how to grow - 2 people with the exact same products may get vastly differing results. But when the ferts go bad - you will not like the results.

I have read Bionova, GH, Foxfarm are all guilty of selling undated products - that limits choices, but knowing which products can turn lethal will give growers prior warning to known potential problems.

Guest · Jan 1, 2007

Hmm, this makes me wonder. although I dont keep my fox farm nutes inside the grow room. they are adjacent to it and the temps in there still reach 85 sometimes. can fox farm grow big etc be effected by this? Ive noticed lately each time I fed it to my plants they actually got worse looking. I ordered AN grow/bloom so ill be keeping this set in a nice cool place.

CaptJamesTKirk · Jan 2, 2007

syztem - go back and read the first post, your answer is there.
Then send an email to Foxfarm and tell them they have lost another customer - but don't tell them to which other company -- AN goes bad too.

http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/contactfox.html

And how do you know the AN products you just bought haven't been sitting on the shelf for a year or longer?

While very unlikely, a seller can send products out that are beyond safe useage the day you get them and the only way you will learn is to feed it to the plants. Then there is the time bomb factor - how long will the be good for?

Now I see why these companies don't date products - because it seems nobody else gets offended when products we pay good money to grow with turn sour and start to kill the garden they are suppose to enhance; with no way to tell in advance.

Can't say I didn't try
shine on and grow

dankbudz · Jan 2, 2007

exactly cjtk. you wont even know till its almost to late

TokenBlackGuy · Jan 2, 2007

just ran into this same problem last month and was in denial about it being foxfarm grow big.. finally when everything went to yellow, i went and bought some iguana juice and everything is back to normal.. but until how long?
The wierdiest part is that a bunch of threads started poppin up about rotten ferts when i started havin trouble.. I now keep myferts in a mini fridge..

minds_I · Jan 2, 2007

Hello all,

Fonzi, I use fish squeezins and ejbloom to suppliment my teas and been having good luck so far. All my bottled stuff is about one year. I keep them in acool dark place.

As to the ferts going bad- when I first started I bought the alaska fish and ejbloom from a nursery on the outskirts of town. The bottles were dusty and the fish shit seemed incredable thich and concentrated.

In retrospect bad ferts would explain alot of issues I had.

As the the ease of guano teas - I love them and my girls love them more importantly.

Anyway, here's to great grows for 2k7.

minds_I

Maj.PotHead · Jan 2, 2007

had Tiger Bloom and then my grow big go bad on me, everything would look great untill 2.5-3 wks into flower and right after a 1/8-1/4tsp bump of Tiger Bloom. then 3 days later all larger fans yellowed.

beware of your ferts if you ever hear solids when you shake it up and it's organic or organic based, ferts are bad.

my water is PH'd to 6.5 for veg and most of flower last 2 wks of flower PH 6.3

my regiment has been
veg FFOF soil 1 time a wk they get a bump 1/8-1/4 tsp seaweed extract and diamond necture. my plants love me back with nice fast healthy green growth when i hit them with tiger bloom 2.5-3wk into flower yellow. they shouldnt yellow because i transplant just before 12/12 starts and the last few plants have had FFOF soil with
1tblspn blood meal
2tblspn bone meal
2tsp dolimite lime per gal soil
i mix the soil several times each day for 5-7 days before use, i'll never use grow big or tiger bloom again. big bloom i'll use unless i have problems with it in future, i'll amend the top of soil 1 time each wk in flower with
indoneasion bat guano NPK= 0.5-12-0.2
and 3wks before harvest for 2wks budswell along with above NPK= 0-7-0

the reason for no more growbig why should i lol i use growmore seaweed extract and diamond necture along w/FFOF soil i transplant every 10-14 days during veg. hence no real need for any other ferts and for flower lol for sure no more tigerbloom never again lmao. i do have botanicare cal-mag pluss for flower along w/guanos i'm gonna start using it in veg also just a bump here n there lol. if i choose i can add mexican bat guano NPK= 10-2-1 during veg and have @ 1/2 tsp each wk after 1st transplant. shame shame on the fert companys thinking where just a bunch of dumb potheads :chin:

kokua · Jan 2, 2007

CaptJamesTKirk said:
FoxFarm offerd to replace the nutes - if I had a recipt.

From a year ago.

yeah right.

This is thier attitude and it needs a wake up call.

I sugest you contact Botanicare and let them know we are on to their low life tatics to saddle consumers with old products at full retail price and screw their gardens. We have a need to know this information and we will gladly pay for quality -not old nutes.

It does no good to date them when you buy them, because a 5 year old bottle looks just like a brand new one.

saddle customers with old products? They offered the discount to the wholesaler...it is then up to the wholesaler whether or not they offer the discount to the retailer...Then it is up to the retailer to offer the discount to you. This problem isn't solved by the manufacturer...

The products you use goes through alot of hands before it gets to you...the shelf life falls on their shoulders...not FF's or Botanicare's or whoever manufacutures the product in question...

AND BTW...there are responsible mfr's out there that DO date their products. Technaflora comes to mind...

kokua · Jan 2, 2007

I think the fact that FF offered a full refund is fantastic customer service...especially since they weren't the ones who screwed up...More than likely the distributor your local retailer uses ordered too much at one time and it went bad on their shelves.

Their aren't many manufacturers that deal with customers directly...they will tell you to go to your local retailer...blah blah blah. I think it is great that FF offered to help you. It is not their fault you didn't keep your reciept. Would you suggest they change their policy to accept just any bottle as return for refund without proof of purchase? That is nuts...

CJTK...you know I love ya bro, but you aren't looking at this from a good vantage point. IT is good that people are aware of shelf life and all that, but not to the point where we are directing hostility towards the companies that make the products.

green_grow · Jan 2, 2007

all we are asking for is a "best before" date on the label . the manufacturer is the only one that can do that .

CaptJamesTKirk · Jan 2, 2007

kokua

Foxfarms offer to replace the product was dependent on my providing a recipt for three bottles of nutes purchaced a year ago - Odds are outstanding that less than 1% of customers might have said recipt - nice offers need to be useable.

I'm well aware the retailer is also at fault, but so is the factory - this isn't a first time and it won't be the last until they have use by dates on each package - and the factory - by not dating their products encourage dealers to over buy with full knowlege the customer will not know the difference until it's too late.

It's a vicious circle that costs us and benifits the retailers and factory.

All I can do is pass the word - I'm not alone but it would seem I am the only one that is pissed enough to try to get them to alter sales and marketing to protect their consumers.

I spent a couple years singing the prasises of Foxfarm products,,, now I try to forwarn.

A sick garden because of old nutes is no way to do business

I trusted them with my garden and believed the"Smart organics for everyday growing" they proudly proclaim on their web site - now we know those days are limited in number and unknown to the customer. No I can't say awwww shuckkys - for a few bucks in nutes - I've spent and lost hundreds of dollars to recover. WHY?

green_grow said:
all we are asking for is a "best before" date on the label . the manufacturer is the only one that can do that .

You bet green, did you send an email to your nute maker?

and when it starts being detrimental to the garden - best if used by is an improvement, but still not worth the hell I went thru.

kokua · Jan 2, 2007

I absolutely agree with you...100%

Press em to date the bottles, that would solve the problem completely

...it is still up to the retailers and distributors to rotate their products, like all perishables I suppose. If the mfgrs did place date codes, that would force the retailers to offer you a discount if it is close to date, and the store clerk couldn't play dumb...

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