Bubbles for bubblers

Folks I've dropped in here occasionally over the years mainly looking for tips on Aeroponics as i've always been convinced as an old bubbler that air is the key.

Due to circumstance and preference i never did follow through with aeroponics mainly due to the labour intensity of maintenance and the like and it alweays bothered me the failure potential with a blown compressor etc that it's COMPLETE failure that you got about 15 mins to correct whereas with bubblers a failure on a bubbler you got about 3 days grace.

Anyway, I steered clear of aeroponics just for that reason but appreciated the tips during my research and thought I'd just drop in to return the favour for any bubblers looking for an edge.

And the edge as i always suspected (hence my attraction to aero) is AIR.

Fine bubble diffusers to be precise (or in my case medium pore diffusers).

Now these ones I've tried are medium pore diffusers that can be used with a STANDARD aerator

http://www.aquasonic.com.au/NewCatalogue/Aeration_p_30.pdf

They are re-usable countless times as they're much better quality to standard airstones at about 10 times the price (AU $3 v AU $30) - but I'll maintain given their longevity (even without counting the benefits) they are well worth the investment. Strandard stones for me generally crumble to dust after about 2-3 cycles and don't take to kindly to cleaning with OXYPLUS or similar, these medium pore diffusers, just soak them in OXYPLUS overnight and they're good as new with NIL breakdown. I reckon there's yeeeeeeeears worth in them

And the benefits! First thing you'll notice is your water - the bubbles "suspend" (for want of a better term) much, more longer in the water before they float to the top and disipate and your water becomes absolutely saturated with oxygen without turning your bucket into a washing machine (which you'd have to do to get the same effect with standard stones).

For reference note standard stones produce bubbles (as per their own blurb) of 3mm+, medium pore diffusers 1-3mm. Doesn't sound much on paper but the difference to the eye is astounding. We're talking a bucket diffused full of soft bubbles rather than a bucket with a stream of hard bubbles (best way I can describe it)

Yield now confirmed over 3 cycles including running a standard and medium pore diffuser side by side in same cycle is around about 15%-18%+ (nearly a 5th). Additionally the health of the plants is much much improved, colour is vibrant and these things literally strain at the leash - as erect as a honeymooners.... you know what... from day 1 to harvest day. And the system is much cleaner too, seems to prevent buildups much better.

Now if you follow the link and peruse more of the site you'll find there's even FINER bubble diffusers which I'm thinking hard about giving a go too - these babies measure bubbles not in millimetres but in the microns (whatever they are) BUT they need a compressor to run. If I give them a go I'll let you's know.

But in the meantime bubblers - think about your stones, look for finer bubble diffusers - IT'S ALL IN THE AIR!

awesome post man, very interesting. So you are obviously in belief that smaller bubbles are better than larger ones, ill take your word for it. What about breaking surface tension though?

Anyway, i think I might go ahead and buy some of those stones.


Whats your opinion on using a piece of heavy duty silicon tubing and drilling/cutting lots of tiny holes, maybe some medium and large too. This would be with an eco 3 plus 36 watt 70 lph pump in a 32 gallon rubbermaid.

No probs with clogging a lot of people have reported with this kind of system, but im sure the bubbles will not be as fine, but let us know what you think

It would be interesting if you could measure the dissolved oxygen content of the water using a traditional air stone and then again using a medium pore diffuser to quantify the difference. If you are feeling adventurous, here is a way to measure DO using a few reagents.

turbolaser4528 said:

awesome post man, very interesting. So you are obviously in belief that smaller bubbles are better than larger ones, ill take your word for it. What about breaking surface tension though?

Anyway, i think I might go ahead and buy some of those stones.


Whats your opinion on using a piece of heavy duty silicon tubing and drilling/cutting lots of tiny holes, maybe some medium and large too. This would be with an eco 3 plus 36 watt 70 lph pump in a 32 gallon rubbermaid.

No probs with clogging a lot of people have reported with this kind of system, but im sure the bubbles will not be as fine, but let us know what you think

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It's the saturation that smaller bubbles give you - they take longer to dissipate to the surface not to mention there's also thoooooooousands more of them than standard stones give you. "Saturation" is probably the best way i can desribe it. And like I said these are "soft" bubbles (for want of a better term) - I cranked up standard stones with bigger aerators before in my facination with air but you tend to turn your bucket into a washing machine, diffuse the bubbles finer and you get the saturation without the excessive turbulance.

Surface tension ain't a problem - these things pop and fizzle the surface like soda water on steroids. In fact I'd say the surface tension exchage would be improved because they tend to diffuse over a broader area rather than stream like standard stones do.

As far as pipe and drilling holes, mate I doubt you'd ever get holes fine enough to get the effect. I doubt you could even get close to the diffusion standard stones would give you. Just heaps of BIG bubbles - FINE bubbles is what you're after.

yeah no one seems to have a definitive answer on how much oxygen is optimal for plant growth. meaning, what is the point of DO saturation at 68 degrees Fahrenheit? what is an easy way to determine this without a DO test kit? some say 1 watt per gallon of water but what really is the best?

we know aero produces bomb results because the plants have unlimited oxygen supply, but is it mainly because of the small droplet size (microns)?

I need answers to these questions....damnit

oldbubbler said:

It's the saturation that smaller bubbles give you - they take longer to dissipate to the surface not to mention there's also thoooooooousands more of them than standard stones give you. "Saturation" is probably the best way i can desribe it. And like I said these are "soft" bubbles (for want of a better term) - I cranked up standard stones with bigger aerators before in my facination with air but you tend to turn your bucket into a washing machine, diffuse the bubbles finer and you get the saturation without the excessive turbulance.

Surface tension ain't a problem - these things pop and fizzle the surface like soda water on steroids. In fact I'd say the surface tension exchage would be improved because they tend to diffuse over a broader area rather than stream like standard stones do.

As far as pipe and drilling holes, mate I doubt you'd ever get holes fine enough to get the effect. I doubt you could even get close to the diffusion standard stones would give you. Just heaps of BIG bubbles - FINE bubbles is what you're after.

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this helped a lot, thank you

niacinamide said:

It would be interesting if you could measure the dissolved oxygen content of the water using a traditional air stone and then again using a medium pore diffuser to quantify the difference. If you are feeling adventurous, here is a way to measure DO using a few reagents.

Click to expand...

Mate, me Trend Micro blocked that site and I tend to go with Trend's recommendations after some previous adventures.

If it's complicated I couldn't help anyway, I'm much more an observation man - I would promise you with NIL doubts the dissolved oxygen is higher - MUCH higher would be my guess but the exact pecs I can't give you.

I wouldn't mind betting somewhere in that catalogue link I posted there may be something - might have to go back to the home site itself and navigate from there but they're pretty much aeration specialists and they've got plenty of goodies and the specs to go with them

old bubbler which stones or diffusers or whatever do you reccomend? what size pump per gallon of resevoir do you recommend? for example, what air setup would be the best on a 30 gallon rubbermaid? how many liters per hour and through stones, a hose, a diffuser, or what? lets hear it man, what will get the best results.

turbolaser4528 said:

we know aero produces bomb results because the plants have unlimited oxygen supply, but is it mainly because of the small droplet size (microns)?

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This is what got me thinking about bubble size in the first place when I was thinking about aero - the small droplet size.

I know we're talking the difference between water (droplets) and air (bubbles) but it got me thinking if micro droplets turbo'd your plants could micro bubbles do similar? Maybe not turbo them so much but give them a few more horses under the hood.

And it does.

turbolaser4528 said:

old bubbler which stones or diffusers or whatever do you reccomend? what size pump per gallon of resevoir do you recommend? for example, what air setup would be the best on a 30 gallon rubbermaid? how many liters per hour and through stones, a hose, a diffuser, or what? lets hear it man, what will get the best results.

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Well those stones are in NSW Australia so unless you are they won't help you. Just type into Google "fine bubble diffusers" "Fine bubble aerators" etc etc things like that and search in your area- you've got the link to the ones I used there to do some spec comparisons and if you're in the ball park and the price is right you're good to go (remember these things are more expensive but also more durable).

As far as aerators, I didn't change mine just the stones and I think you'd be good with the ones you're using now if they work. I'm growing trees so I've got about 300l+ (with reservoir) so I use a Alita pump goeas about 3000 cu pm (according to the specs, I didn't have that in my head i just did a quick Google and found it) - this thing don't have "nozzles" you connect a hose to it and use take-offs. And let me add that's OVERKILL and I'll probably downsize next upgrade.

I don't think it's the amount of air you pump through, it's the diffusion of the bubbles that's the key.

One thing to keep in mind when looking at medium/fine bubble diffuser stones. If their specs measure air flow req in Litres (Gallons) per minute - you can use a standard pump. Just make sure your pump delivers the LPM's the stone's specs require. If their specs measure air flow in Pressure (PSI), you need a compressor which I'm gonna try just out of curiosity but my gut feeling is that it's overkill and medium pore diffusers with a standard pump will do.

oldbubbler said:

Mate, me Trend Micro blocked that site and I tend to go with Trend's recommendations after some previous adventures.

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Didn't mean to raise any flags. I like to use a dereferrer such as anonym.to when posting external links so that icmag doesn't show up in the other server logs when someone clicks on a link. It might get flagged because it automatically redirects. Anyway, here's the original link:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/plants/management/joysmanual/4oxygen.html

Being an aquarium guy I was wonder why high volume powerheads with venturi air intakes are not more widely used with these system. Any thoughts?

Dregs, powerheads add significant heat to a res, that is why they are not used in most setups.

I have tried all of the types of air stones I could find when I started hydro, for the first two years. My results did not match yours, not saying you are wrong, just that I could see no difference, as long as the stones did not clog. I have used bare tube for three years now, and I will never buy a stone again, in my experience, they add no value to the equation. There is no one right way.
H

ahh yes the heat... Putting the motor in the reservoir would add a lot of heat. I always forget that in the aquarium world we usually have to heat our tanks most of the time since we maintain 78-82F. Thanks for the insight.

oldbubbler said:

Well those stones are in NSW Australia so unless you are they won't help you. Just type into Google "fine bubble diffusers" "Fine bubble aerators" etc etc things like that and search in your area- you've got the link to the ones I used there to do some spec comparisons and if you're in the ball park and the price is right you're good to go (remember these things are more expensive but also more durable).

As far as aerators, I didn't change mine just the stones and I think you'd be good with the ones you're using now if they work. I'm growing trees so I've got about 300l+ (with reservoir) so I use a Alita pump goeas about 3000 cu pm (according to the specs, I didn't have that in my head i just did a quick Google and found it) - this thing don't have "nozzles" you connect a hose to it and use take-offs. And let me add that's OVERKILL and I'll probably downsize next upgrade.

I don't think it's the amount of air you pump through, it's the diffusion of the bubbles that's the key.

One thing to keep in mind when looking at medium/fine bubble diffuser stones. If their specs measure air flow req in Litres (Gallons) per minute - you can use a standard pump. Just make sure your pump delivers the LPM's the stone's specs require. If their specs measure air flow in Pressure (PSI), you need a compressor which I'm gonna try just out of curiosity but my gut feeling is that it's overkill and medium pore diffusers with a standard pump will do.

Click to expand...

word thanks for the info. the alita pumps are supposed to be very quiet, but are they really or is it just hype?

Haps said:

Dregs, powerheads add significant heat to a res, that is why they are not used in most setups.

I have tried all of the types of air stones I could find when I started hydro, for the first two years. My results did not match yours, not saying you are wrong, just that I could see no difference, as long as the stones did not clog. I have used bare tube for three years now, and I will never buy a stone again, in my experience, they add no value to the equation. There is no one right way.
H

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Hey Haps, when you say you've tried all the different stones have you tried ones designed for finer bubble diffusion or just a quality thing? The reason I ask is I've never seen medium/fine diffusers in a hydro or aquarium shop before, i had to go straight to the manufacturer for mine - they're usually used more in the trade for bulk type aerating or live fish stock transport or even (and get this) aerating sewererage sludge reservoirs! YUMMY!

AS I said there's ones with such fine bubbles they're measured in microns and you need a compressor to run them - I've never seen them sold direct to public in any hydro/aquarium shop.

As for clogging, these ones are of much better quality so you can soak them in an OXYPLUS mix between cycles and they clean up good as new without breakdown. Standard stones, even those corridium ones, breakdown and crumble to dust with the OXY treatment so that's a good indication of the difference in the material quantity - which you're paying for I might add (AU $3 v AU $30)

turbolaser4528 said:

word thanks for the info. the alita pumps are supposed to be very quiet, but are they really or is it just hype?

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They say that?

Well I guess you could say mines as quiet as a moose.

Dregs said:

Being an aquarium guy I was wonder why high volume powerheads with venturi air intakes are not more widely used with these system. Any thoughts?

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Dregs being an aquarium guy, you may know of protein skimmers (if you do marine)?

There's an attachment for pumps driving skimmers called a needle wheel - when used with a venturi the the wheel effectively chops up the bubbles and if you've seen a protein skimmer going you know how frothy and aeratated the water becomes in the chamber (even given that salt water holds oxygen more efficiently than fresh).

Anyway it led to one of my brainstorms for aeration when I thought if I just use a skimmer pump with needle wheel as my pump and I'm pumping rich oxygenated water who'd need an aerator at all.

And it worked, and worked perfectly... in all tests in my bathtub. Unfortunately when transferred to my system, the head height from my reservoir to the feed was just too much for it - you lose heeeeeaps of pumping power with a needle wheel and venturi.

BUT - it's something sfor someone to think about if anyone's got a situation where thay can pump without using much head-height. I could find no solution that would've made mine work without a complete rebuild but the test results (on the flat in a bathtub) made me think hard about it. But then i just went with the fine stones instead.

I tried all styles I could find locally and a couple hydro shops, the closest to your type was the air curtains, which really looked cool, but did not produce any better. Your fine bubbles may be a different level, and may give an advantage in some systems, it seems possible to me.

Bare tube at max DO is the ticket to me, no cost or trouble with stones. I can not quantify the bump the roots get from the kinesis provided by large bubbles, but the girls like it.
H

Haps said:

I tried all styles I could find locally and a couple hydro shops, the closest to your type was the air curtains, which really looked cool, but did not produce any better. Your fine bubbles may be a different level, and may give an advantage in some systems, it seems possible to me.

Bare tube at max DO is the ticket to me, no cost or trouble with stones. I can not quantify the bump the roots get from the kinesis provided by large bubbles, but the girls like it.
H

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nicee

i run a 1 open tube and 2 tubes that have slits, cuts and holes in them. get a deecent mix of large and small bubbles, good amount of turbulence, id live to have finer bubbles, maybe take a silicone house and dice it up with a razor blaze and a drill what do you guys think?