Security MEGAThread!

Lets try and make this a Security MegaThread!

EDIT:!!!!!

Raistlin Majere said:

#1 keep your mouth SHUT !!
biggest security issue i can think of and its not added ?
good luck w/the thread

Click to expand...

Good call Rasta!


I will try to break it down as best I can...

1) Smell

1a) Carbon Scrubbers

1b) Ozone Generators

1c) Odor Neutralizers (think vaportek)


2) Heat Exhaust

2a) Exhausting into the Sewer

2b) Through the Chimney

2c) Through a Window

2d) Home-made Vents

2e) Into the Ground

2f) Secondary Location Exhaust

2g) other ideas


3) Sound

3a) Fan Noise

3b) Moving Air Noise

3c) Water Noise

3d) Misc Noise


4) Room Design

4a) Reflective Materials

4b) Sealed vs un-Sealed

4c) "Air Wall" (IE room within a room)

4d) Accidents can happen


5) Security Systems

5a) Video Surveillance

5b) Other Security Measures

5c) Counter Intelligence

5d) DIY type-stuff


6) Bills

6a) Electric Bills

6b) Renting a house

6c) Water Bills


7) Securing your digital Presence

7a) Forum surfing

7b) buying seeds online

7c) Phone Conversations

7d) etc.


8) Tin hat time

8a) X-ray vision

8b) everything else tin-hat like!


9) What have I missed?!

9a) - 9?) you tell me!


Please do not post until I have enough posts right after this one for the information to be added. (which probably means ~10 minutes total) (thank you!)

FYI, not everything is going to be cited right away, as it take a shit-ton of time to go through posts / threads here and re-find all this data, so any help with finding links to pertinent information would be greatly appreciated!

1) Smell

Everyone knows that smell kills, or at least will get you busted in no time flat.

I feel that if you only worry about a single thing, smell should be that one thing.
Aside from keeping your mouth shut, that is!

Pretty much everyone knows how to get rid of the smell, so this section will be somewhat brief, I will eventually work on getting the DIY links up here too.


1a) Carbon Scrubbers

Everybody knows Carbon Scrubbers are your best friend. It is proven technology, and should be used in every stealth indoor grow op IMO.

There are many many different kinds, from PhatFilters to ProFilters, and of course your DIY carbon scrubber

I don't really feel like getting into a discussion on which are the best, but some helpful advice:

- Always Check these every few months; I have no real good solution to check it, since being around growing pot can and does make you way more tolerant of the smell, to the point of not being able to smell it even if the smell is there. Of course, if the scrubber is basically out of commission, it would most likely smell like your grow room.

- Be careful how you use the scrubber, a lot have a pre filter on them to filter out larger particles so that the carbon doesn't get clogged etc. Id also say clean this occasionally too.

- If you can flip your scrubber, use the feature, but just know that the side the smell was initially coming into contact with is now on the side that is closest to "fresh air" (could anybody let me know if this has ANY validity what-so-ever?; personally I doubt it)

- Always buy one rated higher than your fan. Also remember that if you are using 8" duct, that getting a 10" or 12" filter isn't a bad thing, as the increase in diameter can help with removing odor, as the air will have more time in contact with the carbon


1b) Ozone Generators

I personally don't know much about these, BUT I know they do work, and do help out, and that you can build one yourself if you want to.

1c) Odor Neutralizers (think vaportek)

Every time i read about these, I fall a little more in love with them. Don't think that you can use one as your ONLY way to neutralize the smell, as thats not how they should be used. Instead use them as a way to help neutralize the smell around your grow area; like where you are venting your air cooled hoods (in case there are leaks), inside your sealed or unsealed room, etc etc. Great for whatever room you actually smoke in too!

Link to the vaportek megathread: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11927&highlight=vaportek

some happy customers with it within this thread also: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=84743&highlight=vaportek

2) Heat Exhaust

This is another VERY important area, especially in todays grow scene with helicopters decked out in FLIR, and cops cruising the streets with hand held thermal imaging cameras. I would also assume that a lot of rippers would have themselves a hand held thermal imaging camera with them when looking for possible houses to break into.

I will try to go over pros and cons of each idea; Please chim in if you have any experience or other ideas, as this is currently one of the hot topics with the recent influx of thermal imaging worries.

Random Exhaust related links:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=86628



2a) Exhausting into the Sewer

One of the better ideas, You basically vent all your exhaust air into the sewer. This will have to be a DIY setup, as it requires you to mess around with your sewage line.

Pros:

- you don't have to go outside to do anything, so no nosy neighbor can see you doing suspicious activity.

- Completely removes smell and heat from the equation, killing two birds with one stone; THOUGH I STILL recommend a carbon scrubber for EVERY GROW.

- no one will be going through the sewers looking for this type of exhaust.

Cons:

- back pressure, from what I can recall, you have to be really careful about pumping too much air into the sewer as it can end up "hiccuping" or something like that (A link for this would be nice)

- Have to mess around with pipes and such.

- Your sewer line usually isn't hidden well, so this is out for apt growing.


2b) Through the Chimney

Another viable option, you will have to somehow get your exhaust vent into your chimney though, and thats where the DIY comes in. Depending on the size of the grow, this could be the wrong way to approach exhaust issues.

Pros:

- hiding your heat exhaust within a common place for heat to exhaust, unless the FLIR is watching you all the time, you will most likely get away with this, since there is no way to know what its coming from, could be your fire-place, could be your water heater, etc. They would have to watch this for an extended amount of time to be useful to them. Remember though that FLIR cannot be used to get a search warrant, and what type of judge would give a PO a search warrant based on hot air coming from a chimney???

- don't have to build some elaborate piping system if you were going to build your own exhaust pipe to the top of your roof.

- could be stealthed really easily; just make sure to connect into it somewhere no one can see it. (in between floors maybe)

Cons:

- extended monitoring could reveal this, especially if you are exhausting hot air during the night, as its easier to come up. Normally this is when the FLIR tech works the best,

- its a DIY project, and could be a pain in the ass depending on your house.

- basically not possible for an apt.


2c) Through a Window

right outta there!

Inspired by the dutch grow video that is floating around. Good idea, but in todays FLIR world, not practical IMO.

You are basically making a box that fits over your window sill, you line it with sound dampening foam for added security, and paint it black to stop light from escaping. You also make sure to cover the window with those "privacy blinds" which would allow airflow, but significantly decreases someones ability to see through and notice its being covered up completely.

Some suggestions for this would be to make sure to use a material that doesn't hold thermal radiation well at all. DONT USE METAL. maybe line it with those thermal blankets. Those things do nothing but reflect thermal radiation. they never get hot when looking at them with a FLIR, BUT they would reflect a shit ton of light, so if you were to use it in a window, well when the sun hits it people could notice it real easy.

Pros:

- easy to build, low cost, quick

- can be setup in the grow room, saves some space, and less ductwork to run

- quick way to dump heat somewhere

Cons:

- ANYTHING that the hot exhaust air comes in contact with begins to absorb thermal energy. The window frame, the glass, the metal knob on the window, your blinds etc etc. huge red flag at night on the FLIR IMO, especially if its winter time and your window is glowing like a Christmas tree, while the rest of your windows aren't.

- Sound issues, if you haven't properly considered sound, you are exhausting right outside, mail people could hear it, walking neighbors, a cop doing a walk and talk, kids, etc etc.


2d) Home-made Vents

As in vents that look like dryer exhaust, or secondary chimneys for other things like a hot water heater.

It is very important that you take into account all construction laws regarding these if you are going to add it to your house. Not following those rules could be an indicator to police officers if they are watching you.

i won't talk about how to create these as its not my specialty, but please don't go the dryer vent route, exhausting hot air from a dryer vent 24/7 (flip flop) or 12/7 is a big indicator.

Pros:

- assuming a non dryer vent, and one thats on your roof, it just looks like any other houses roof vents. nothing unusual about it really.

- you can build it however you want, and use whatever materials you want.

- can go right to your grow area.

Cons:

- still a lot of ducting to deal with, which also must be considered when planning out your fans.

- unusual activity from vents raise suspicion. Though if they don't know what its for how can they say its suspicious activity!

- money / time / very labor intensive

- MUST follow construction rules!


2e) Into the Ground

I've read about a few of these before. Really good Idea IMO if you can manage to do the outside work without any peeping toms.

I dont know enough about them to talk about pros / cons, but all i can say is this:

watch out for thermal imaging. A FLIR heli passing over it could potentially see the ground where the pipe is buried as being much warmer than other parts of your yard. You could try by FLIR'ing your own yard and house first, and see if there are any pipe / etc that run hot at night, and try to put your exhaust pipe by them.


2f) Secondary Location Exhaust

Good idea, until it was over used. If a cop is going to FLIR your house, he is going to FLIR everything, including your shed in the back. If he sees odd hot spots there, its a big red flag, because well a shed shouldn't really have any hot spots on it, especially if there are no visible power lines going to it.

no pro/con here either as its not my thing


2g) other ideas

Any other ides from people???

If i remember correctly, as long as when you exhaust to the outside, you dont let the hot air hit anything that can absorb thermal energy, it cannot be detected on FLIR. In simpler terms, FLIR (at least my understanding of the technology) cannot detect the temperature of AIR. (if it could, well wouldn't the screen be all one gradient of color; the color of the air right in front of the sensor)

3) Sound

Ahh sound, my favorite thing to talk about, only because in a lot of grows I've read about, it is never really discussed at all.

Hell, I have a datacenter grade switch in my computer room, and the thing is loud as FUCK. having quieter fans just makes life easier. Mainly because I like things to be quiet. Makes it easier to hear the sirens and fast moving 5oh if they come after ya! (haha)


3a) Fan Noise

No real way around it, unless you get one of these!
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-...ine-Fans.list.75114_11002_7000000000000005702

Some quick Comparision of the 440 CFM whisperline and the VTX600 (the 6" ~450 CFM fan)

Vortex VTX 600 (right from their product sheet vortex sent me)

RPM: 2600
Volts: 115
Watts: 100
Amps: ~.9
Weight: 11.5 Lbs
CFM based on static Pressure:
(notice the jump, its to save space)
0 SP -> 470
.125 -> 344
.25 --> 301
.375 -> 265
.5 ---> 232
1.0 --> 119
1.5 --> 42

Whisper Line 440CFM fan:

RPM: 1150
Volts: 115
Watts: 130
Amps: ~1.1
Weight: 26 Lbs
CFM based on static Pressure:
(notice the jump, its to save space)
0 SP -> 470
.2 ---> 440
.4 ---> 410


As the data shows, Especially the Static Pressure information, it seems comparable to the Vortex, Very Comparable, but its a 8" diameter fan, and its double the weight.

I will be personally using these in my next grow, in parallel, partly because the max you can get is 440CFM, and also because if one breaks, you still have airflow in your system, just more strain on the still working fans until you can replace the broken one.


3b) Moving Air Noise

Duct Mufflers:

One of the better put together guides: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=65345&highlight=air+muffler

There is also another one that is a DIY muffler based around a garbage can I think, cant find the link right now.

3c) Water Noise

Easy and hard to stop at the same time!

most of the time if you are growing in a HOUSE, this is something to not worry about, except the sound of water falling, which a cop doing a knock and talk may hear.

However, if you live in an apt, this is important, because whenever you are filling reses up, etc etc, your neighbors can hear the water running through your pipes. so try to time it during normal water usage. If you run a RO system, leaving it on all the time may also be a bad idea. Try to have a RO water res thats always filled, and just topped off every day or so. Guess this all depends on how big you are growing.

Just try to take this into account, water makes odd noises, and there are times when water can bubble and make even more noise, or when its rushing down your ebb and flow drain lines, etc.


3d) Misc Noise

Do light movers make noise? haha

Vibration will be considered noise, so try to get rid of that as much as possible with rubber between anything that vibrates a little. Your Air pumps, your Fans, your oscillating fans, etc.

Anything else others want to share for noise?

4) Room Design

This section will be short. Mainly because we are in the growroom design forum area. I expect everybody to be masters at design, so I will just share some of the things I've learned from reading here.

4a) Reflective Materials

C-3 material(sp? name correct?): reflects thermal energy, basically the same material used for thermal blankets I believe. The easiest way to explain this is:

take a thick metal pan of yours, then also create a foil pan also.
put them both in the oven at whatever temperature you want to.
take them out after however long it takes your oven to fully heat up + say 5 minutes.

Guess which item is going to be hot to the touch? The metal pan of course.
where as the foil is basically cold to the touch.
If you were to take a thermal image of both metals, the pan would be radiating a LOT of heat that a FLIR could pick up on, where as the foil (I believe) would show up as close to room temp.

the reflective thermal sheets are just like this idea, but way better than foil (since foil is like that partially because it is real thin and is very thermally conductive; but also because it was actually reflecting a lot of the thermal energy in the oven when you were heating it up.)

(**this isnt a perfect example!**)

There are other types of material that can cover up thermal signatures, just be careful, and if you have the money, I suggest renting a thermal imaging camera and running some tests (if all my cash wasn't being saved up for my next build, id be doing this as we speak; because I'm tired of all this mis-information I read about thermal imaging)


4b) Sealed vs un-Sealed

The more I think about this the less I like it here, but I guess its ok. The big thing is that with a sealed room, you are going to have to exhaust A LOT more heat than a non-sealed room would.

You'll have to exhaust AC heat, heat from CO2 generation, air cooled hoods hot exhaust and some other things I haven't mentioned.

Just keep this in mind when creating your ventilation system, and make sure it can support it.

Some of you may have seen this image:


I really like the idea of having a main vent duct for exhausting air, with multiple, lower CFM fans on it, it just "makes sense" to me, especially if they are those whisper line fans. Anyway, with a vent duct like this, if you make it bigger than needed, you could then also hook up your AC exhaust, CO2 Exhaust etc too it, just as if it were one of the light lines in the picture. CFM through each line is roughly just exhaust CFM/# of lines. SO if you had say 4 of those panasonic fans, youd be pulling 1600CFM. which through say 6 lines (4 lights, 1 AC, 1 Co2) you would be pulling ~266CFM through each one. (**this is of course in my imaginary 0.0 static pressure world**)

Since this thread is security based, I am not trying to veer too far from that, so I will end this section saying that either way, sealed or not sealed, designing your grow room with security / stealth in mind is key, no matter the room type.


4c) "Air Wall" (IE room within a room)

This is basically a room within a room, with an air pocket surrounding your room completely, along with some insulating material like foam. The air should be the same temp as the rest of your house. this will help make sure that your houses thermal image stays consistent, and there are no anomaly's to be seen (hopefully)


4d) Accidents can happen


Make sure to put a strong, thick waterproof plastic material on the ground of your room. You WILL knock over something someday, and it will cause a HUGE mess, most likely of water, nutrients and soil / hydro grow material.

Thinking about this now will help a lot. What happens if your grow room is above your living room, and something breaks and starts leaking when someone is visiting? You now have water seeping through the floor into your living room ceiling...

reserved for 5

reserved for 6 (thanks Rasta!!)

reserved for 7

8) Tin hat time

Yes, I am skipping a few to touch on this first. Also, I am taking a break after this. (its too nice out NOT to go roller blading!)

There has been a LOT of mis-information about FLIR and the such. I will hopefully be able to quell some of that with this section.

8a) X-ray vision

NOT POSSIBLE. THERE IS NO WAY FOR LEO TO SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING INSIDE. FLIR IS A PASSIVE SYSTEM. IT CAN ONLY DETECT HEAT RADIATING FROM SURFACES. IF YOU ARE WALKING AROUND INSIDE YOUR HOUSE, IT CANNOT SEE WHERE YOU ARE WALKING. TV SHOWS LIE.

h@@p://www.officer.com/web/online/Technology/Myth-Busting-Thermal-Imaging/20$40763

PLEASE do not go to the link via this site (or you are creating trace back links to the site, this is why I have put the @@ there; though i think that referral page takes care of that!)

Please people, stop spreading the myth!

I am NOT saying it isn't impossible, its just that the NSA isn't sharing their super-tech with the DEA or any other type law enforcement, especially when if it does exist, its probably classified up the ass.


8b) everything else tin-hat like!

Thermo seeking vans -> oh they exist alright, and I can tell you the power company owned ones would def drop some tips to the cops if they saw a suspicious house, but they arent out there to find you. They are looking for people stealing power, or transformers / other equipment that could be broken or about to break.

reserved for 9

reserved for 10!!! woot.

Time to start filling them up!

Note that some of this will be my take on things, from basically reading everything on this site since day one of my reg date (ive gone way way back into the old threads too; hence why it may take me a while to find all the sources that are at least located on this site)

ummm so yeah, right on!

BTW, there is "infared blocking" foil that I've seen sold at hydro shops, I assume if you just put it under your mylar or something it'd work great. For all I know it could be reflective as well.

1love1earth said:

ummm so yeah, right on!

BTW, there is "infared blocking" foil that I've seen sold at hydro shops, I assume if you just put it under your mylar or something it'd work great. For all I know it could be reflective as well.

Click to expand...

yeah thats what I mean by reflective.

when they say blocking, they mean it reflects all thermal energy back. without absorbing or letting any pass through.

quick link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_insulation

read up on it if your interested, if not at least skim it!

anything that can reflect infra-red waves is reflecting thermal energy

some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiant_barrier

and a chart of emissivity of materials: http://www.savenrg.com/emissivitychart.htm


nice all-inclusive radiant barrier primer: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/html/FSEC-EN-15/index.htm#available

Green Tea, I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but I think that consolidating all this information into one thread is a bad idea.

All the topics you've mentioned are subjective things.. Everyone is going to have a different opinion, and the best answers to these questions is often found by reviewing what everyone has to say. When people are replying about 10 different topics, it will be very difficult to follow the thread about one of them in particular.

Your opinions are on point and all for the most part, but would be better served contributing to the original discussions you are basing them on.

I also think your write-ups of the topics, while again, on point, are going to dilute search results, when people would be better off finding the original threads.

I think a security oriented "link-o-rama" would be much more helpful in directing people to relevant discussions & information, and would be a much more concise way of providing the results of your research for all to benefit from.

Kudo's

Kudo's

I (for one) think your thread is a great idea. I don't see how consolidating info is a bad thing at all. Your info may not be complete, but it's a good start at a discussion. +1 rep. Thanks.

the idea is really to do both, links and info.

Its just getting links takes a while, and currently I have a project due for a class + presentation tomorrow. So I don't have the few hrs needed to really just sift through links.

i vote sticky for sure..

Sticky in security forum.

green_tea said:

the idea is really to do both, links and info.

Its just getting links takes a while, and currently I have a project due for a class + presentation tomorrow. So I don't have the few hrs needed to really just sift through links.

Click to expand...

Sorry green tea, I should have just asked about or recommended the links instead of going off on a pretty negative rant.

May I suggest a section about electrical/fire safety? This thread:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=57585

..has lots of info and links in the replies, and is begging to be consolidated in the style you've started here.

Lets see if I can be of some help...

green_tea said:

2a) Exhausting into the Sewer

One of the better ideas, You basically vent all your exhaust air into the sewer. This will have to be a DIY setup, as it requires you to mess around with your sewage line.

Click to expand...

Only problem is that sewers have a vent on the top of your house, so instead of it going into the sewer you will just have smelly hot air trying to go out of a small opening on your roof...

green_tea said:

2b) Through the Chimney

Another viable option, you will have to somehow get your exhaust vent into your chimney though, and thats where the DIY comes in. Depending on the size of the grow, this could be the wrong way to approach exhaust issues.

Click to expand...

The problem here is that Infrared monitoring shows the temperature of the surfaces. The issue being that when chimneys are being used legally (for fires) the air moving around is WAY hotter than any exhaust air for a growroom. The investigators would quickly realize that not only is your chimney being used for 12 hours a day every day but is at far too low a temperature to be a fire, and for some reason there is no smoke...

While yes it is possible that a cop is stupid enough to think a fire lets off 80 degree heat I wouldn't suggest relying on that.

green_tea said:

2c) Through a Window

right outta there!

Inspired by the dutch grow video that is floating around. Good idea, but in todays FLIR world, not practical IMO.

Click to expand...

In many circumstances this is the best option. The largest reason for this is that most police depts do not have the resources to staff a heli with infrared equip let alone using it to check out every possible grow house. If you have a window that faces your backyard you can prevent a cop in the street with a handheld ir device from seeing you (whereas both previous "better" ideas they would see clear as day that something is up because either you have a very cool fire or very hot shit.

Also the simplicity of keeping all growing aspects in one bedroom (versus living room/basement for chimney or bathroom/basement for the sewer idea) would only necessitate one locked door versus a locked bathroom/basement/living room.

Lastly if a raid is on your way and you manage to clean up in time by putting a room ac on that window and a bunch of computers (for lan parties) you could have a legitimate excuse for both the heat coming out of that window and for your power consumption.

green_tea said:

2g) other ideas

Click to expand...

I see 2 that you missed here, using the condenser from your central ac to cool only your grow room. Depending on where you are and your situation it could or could not be viable.

Water cooling, though I have never personally seen it used full scale (most likely neither have the cops) The only pre built units I have seen is these http://www.progressive-growth.com/proddetail.php?prod=heatexlb Just run the appropriate size unit, then either straight pool water through it (if you don't mind having a cold ass pool) or by running a second water to water cooler in a pond, lake, stream, ocean or any other cool body of water you could get rid of a ton of heat in a manner law enforcement are probably not looking for.

Another idea with water cooling would be to use a somewhat traditional ac setup but as opposed to the traditional condenser using outside air, using water. The advantage of this is you could do this with a normal temperature swimming pool, however this would obviously be pretty damn complex...



Hope that is of some help