Tetraploid and triploid seeds

[goingrey]

If it becomes legal, you could just buy the cut or the weed, no triploid seeds needed.
I still dont see the point why stuff like this is a good thing.
Auto fem triploid seeds... im dying inside

Higher potency higher yield with less light used, say no artificial light.

 

[farmerfischer]

When fems came out people said they are ruining the genepool with them, well even before that when everything was crossed to Skunk #1 people said they are ruining the genepool... And with autos they said it especially.

Can't say that about triploids, them being sterile and all.

I used a male triploid 2 years ago and it pollenizes all my females(normal females).. so is it the female triploid that are sterile?or the offspring? I'm just starting to redive back into this triploid thing.. I've been seeing alot of talk and ty vids on this, this last year or so...

 

[GMT]

Personally, I've never understood why triploid cannabis would be sterile, there are plenty of triploid plants out there happily breeding.

 

[Shua1991]

This is a monstrisity only Monsanto would want to create. I'll never spend money on this sterile bullshit. "

"Hey, want germplasm you can't reproduce? We own the "IP".


One step closer to patented cannabis genetics from sickos with silicon Valley tech bro mentalities. People don't want to admit that the profit motive makes shit worse for everyone.

 

[GreenToAsT]

Personally, I've never understood why triploid cannabis would be sterile, there are plenty of triploid plants out there happily breeding.

They are not sterile, nor do they show any performance benefits over diploids.
[Allthough they only produce few viable seeds with the rest being not viable]

Triploids are grade A Bullshit.

 

[goingrey]

I used a male triploid 2 years ago and it pollenizes all my females(normal females).. so is it the female triploid that are sterile?or the offspring? I'm just starting to redive back into this triploid thing.. I've been seeing alot of talk and ty vids on this, this last year or so...

How did you identify that the male was a triploid?

 

[goingrey]

Personally, I've never understood why triploid cannabis would be sterile, there are plenty of triploid plants out there happily breeding.

Here is a paper about it. They do say the female triploids were infertile, and also that it as common method used to create infertile plants with some other species including hops.

Characteristics of the Diploid, Triploid, and Tetraploid Versions of a Cannabigerol-Dominant F1 Hybrid Industrial Hemp Cultivar, Cannabis sativa ‘Stem Cell CBG’

Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) has recently become an important crop due to the growing market demands for products containing cannabinoids. Unintended cross-pollination of C. sativa crops is one of the most important threats to cannabinoid production and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[goingrey]

They are not sterile, nor do they show any performance benefits over diploids.
[Allthough they only produce few viable seeds with the rest being not viable]

Are you taking about tetraploids or triploids? Sounds like tetraploids.

 

[goingrey]

This is a monstrisity only Monsanto would want to create. I'll never spend money on this sterile bullshit. "

"Hey, want germplasm you can't reproduce? We own the "IP".


One step closer to patented cannabis genetics from sickos with silicon Valley tech bro mentalities. People don't want to admit that the profit motive makes shit worse for everyone.

I think it's better (more honest) than these forum breeders who release reg seed but then go on teary-eyed tirades about how their work has been stolen if someone uses the pollen from the males to breed with.

 

[GreenToAsT]

They do say the female triploids were infertile

And yet it produced viable and non viable seed.

Edit: talking about triploids.

Edit: GTR had a disclaimer about their triploids that there could still be seed development if heavy pollination occurs.

 

[goingrey]

And yet it produced viable and non viable seed.

Edit: talking about triploids.

Edit: GTR had a disclaimer about their triploids that there could still be seed development if heavy pollination occurs.

True, they say less than 2% of what the diploids produced and declared that infertile.

 

[GMT]

@goingrey

Thanks, just spent an hour on that paper. Sadly I think it was wasted.

Quotes from the paper:

The average seed counts for the diploid × diploid, triploid × diploid, and tetraploid × diploid crossing combinations were significantly different at 317.25, 4.25, and 68.62 filled seeds per plant, respectively.

In crosses with the tetraploid pollen donor, the average filled seed counts per diploid, triploid, and tetraploid plant were 0, 5.63, and 124.75, respectively

TS1-3’ (all ploidies) was not used as the pollen parent in any of the experiments as ‘TS1-3’ does not produce any viable pollen following STS treatment; this phenomenon is common in highly inbred C. sativa lines such as ‘TS1-3’. ‘TS1-3’ was clonally propagated for this reason as well. ‘P163’ is a day neutral selfing line that cannot be clonally propagated; therefore, seed was used.

Seeds representing three ploidies of F1 hybrid plants, including diploid (2x), triploid (3x), and tetraploid (4x), were developed from several crossing combinations utilizing ‘TS1-3’ × ‘P163’, ‘TS1-3 (4x)’ × ‘P163’ and ‘TS1-3 (4x)’ × ‘P163 (4x)’

To perform crosses, a modified silver thiosulfate (STS) treatment [26] was used to stimulate male flower development on the pollen donors, which were genetic females




Personal observations on the paper:
So they used an auto to cross with a normal photoperiod line, can't help thinking that's not an ideal starting point.
Then they used a line that wouldn't produce pollen. That doesn't mean no triploid will produce pollen. Esp since they were reversing a female, why not use a male for this?
Next they show that each ploidy count prefers to breed with the same ploidy count. That's fair enough, but it doesn't make the diploid infertile just because it couldn't produce viable seeds when pollinated by a tetraploid. Esp since the triploid did.
Also when creating the triploid seeds they successfully bred the tetraploid to the diploid using the P163 female reversed to the TS1-3 female diploid. However when analysing the breeding potential, they used the TS1-3 tetraploid female reversed to the P163 female diploid. This produced no viable seeds.
Rather than using the P163 tetraploid to cross to the TS1-3 triploid to see if that worked, they packed up and went home for tea.

EDIT: ah no they didn't, they used the P163 as the pollen donor again, but still didn't do triploid x triploid. And where did the triploids come from in the first place if tetraploid x diploid produced no viable seeds?

This study has so many flaws in it that it can't really be used as evidence for anything other than some scientists are a little bit lazy and don't really do science very well.

 

[mudballs]

. A common observation is that otherwise viable hybrids between genetically differentiated lineages suffer from reduced fertility up to the point of complete sterility—an important reproductive barrier that keeps species distinct [10]. One stage during which problems appear is meiosis, when hybrid gametogenesis sometimes arrests
goes back to the male from fems thread...meiotic drive, meiotic phase 2 i wouldn't shut up about..

 

[goingrey]

@goingrey

Thanks, just spent an hour on that paper. Sadly I think it was wasted.

Quotes from the paper:

The average seed counts for the diploid × diploid, triploid × diploid, and tetraploid × diploid crossing combinations were significantly different at 317.25, 4.25, and 68.62 filled seeds per plant, respectively.

In crosses with the tetraploid pollen donor, the average filled seed counts per diploid, triploid, and tetraploid plant were 0, 5.63, and 124.75, respectively

TS1-3’ (all ploidies) was not used as the pollen parent in any of the experiments as ‘TS1-3’ does not produce any viable pollen following STS treatment; this phenomenon is common in highly inbred C. sativa lines such as ‘TS1-3’. ‘TS1-3’ was clonally propagated for this reason as well. ‘P163’ is a day neutral selfing line that cannot be clonally propagated; therefore, seed was used.

Seeds representing three ploidies of F1 hybrid plants, including diploid (2x), triploid (3x), and tetraploid (4x), were developed from several crossing combinations utilizing ‘TS1-3’ × ‘P163’, ‘TS1-3 (4x)’ × ‘P163’ and ‘TS1-3 (4x)’ × ‘P163 (4x)’

To perform crosses, a modified silver thiosulfate (STS) treatment [26] was used to stimulate male flower development on the pollen donors, which were genetic females




Personal observations on the paper:
So they used an auto to cross with a normal photoperiod line, can't help thinking that's not an ideal starting point.
Then they used a line that wouldn't produce pollen. That doesn't mean no triploid will produce pollen. Esp since they were reversing a female, why not use a male for this?
Next they show that each ploidy count prefers to breed with the same ploidy count. That's fair enough, but it doesn't make the diploid infertile just because it couldn't produce viable seeds when pollinated by a tetraploid. Esp since the triploid did.
Also when creating the triploid seeds they successfully bred the tetraploid to the diploid using the P163 female reversed to the TS1-3 female diploid. However when analysing the breeding potential, they used the TS1-3 tetraploid female reversed to the P163 female diploid. This produced no viable seeds.
Rather than using the P163 tetraploid to cross to the TS1-3 triploid to see if that worked, they packed up and went home for tea.

This study has so many flaws in it that it can't really be used as evidence for anything other than some scientists are a little bit lazy and don't really do science very well.

Well, in real world applications it could be quite beneficial that a field of triploid females doesn't get (more than less than 2%) seeded by say pollen from a neighboring (diploid) hemp field, or doesn't create viable pollen due to stress or whatever. So these findings are worthwhile. Scientists are working with real world budgets and timelines, to expect the very first paper on a subject to take everything possible into account in and come to a definite "truth" including all kinds of special cases is unfair and unrealistic.

 

[GMT]

We can't say it doesn't create viable pollen due to stress, just that diploids, triploids or tetraploids of one specific line doesn't produce pollen when sts is applied. Lots of other lines do, and so nothing can be drawn from that.
I am unfair, you must have read my posts

 

[goingrey]

We can't say it doesn't create viable pollen due to stress, just that diploids, triploids or tetraploids of one specific line doesn't produce pollen when sts is applied. Lots of other lines do, and so nothing can be drawn from that.
I am unfair, you must have read my posts

Well you're not wrong but have you seen any examples of plants that STS doesn't reverse but do due to stress?

 

[GMT]

Lol no I haven't even heard of any, nevermind seen them. The point I was making though is that's specific to that lineage rather than applicable to all. As I was pottering, I was milling this whole thing over. I think I get it.

So if the ploidy level affects (and we know it does) the size of the pollen grain, then while a tetraploid can't fit to pollinate a diploid, a diploid will be smaller, and so the pollen grain will fit into a tetraploid to pollinate it, thereby creating triploids. It therefore follows that a tetraploid's pollen grain (gamete) will fit into a triploids ovum where by the gamete split into diploid ovums but not haploid ovums, (is that not the right word? It's coming up with a red underline).
It also follows that triploid pollen will have a reduced compatibility with diploid lines on a percentage basis, but should still be fine pollinating tetraploids. This should create a line with both triploids and tetraploids in the offspring. Triploid x triploid would also have a reduced viability, but not to 0. Where the diploid gamete meets a diploid gamete, we will get tetraploid seed. Where a haploid gamete meets a haploid gamete, we will get diploid seeds. Where a diploid meets a haploid we get reduced viability. Where a haploid meets a diploid, we will get more triploids.

So all in all, triploids will have reduced viability compared to diploid or tetraploid breeding, but not sterile by any means, unless the line is sterile regardless of ploidy levels.

 

[mudballs]

Well...it's not the grain boss...it's the tube that extends after pollen grain swelling and finally deposits a gamete

 

[mudballs]

I think it has more to do with what the gamete has

 

[GMT]

The pollen is the gamete, and the ovum Is the corresponding gamete. The pollen has to fit inside, and ovums aren't made by gallifrayans.