The Concept of Organic Hydro

[rrog]

Hi. Just trying to conceptually wrap my mind around the basic concept. I see advantages to not filling my weed with man-made materials. I see standard Hydro nutes as unhealthy, and Organic nutes as healthy. I may be totally wrong in this assumption.

Maybe someone could see if I have this right:

Organic Hydro relies on the long term establishment of microbial colonies. So we're not changing out the res (full of our colonized friends).

We just add back in more nutes. I assume we measure TDS to get a ballpark timetable for nute adding?

I assume there are different veg and bloom formulations?

Do we still flush at the end as with standard salt Hydro?

Thanks

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

greetings rrog, welcome to perhaps the most obscure of growing methods, organic hydro!

There are many schools of thought when it comes to how one might go about running hydro with organic nutrients. You can come at the problem from many angles. However, before we dive into the various methods you need to know why we are here. First, a rant about organics!

Its funny how organic gardeners seem to think that their plants benefit from the fact that their nitrogen (and other nutes) is coming from a natural (organic) source. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE PLANT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT WHERE THE NITROGEN CAME FROM! NITROGEN IS NITROGEN, THE END. Its as if they think that the feel-good sentimental value that they get from using organics will somehow transfer to the plants. IT IS A PLANT. IT HAS NO FEELINGS. IT DOES NOT FUCKING CARE WHERE ITS NUTES COME FROM.

The plant couldnt give two shits that the nitrogen came from blood meal and not some urea-based chemical salt. This is not what make organics cool! Organics are awesome because it allows you to deliver potent nutrients to your plants without wrecking the micro-life present in the soil. Salt nutes kill microbes. Organic nutes do not kill microbes. This is the ONLY important difference between salt and organic nutes, period. In order to actually be getting any real advantage from organics you have to embrace the micro-organisms that will take residence in your soil. Check a bag of blood meal real quick, what does the label say? Mine says 12-0-0. Most organic nutes have similar concentrations, they are never very strong. Those numbers mean that the blood meal is 12 percent nitrogen by mass. The other 88 percent is organic matter which is COMPLETELY USELESS for growing cannabis. This is what is making your soil stinky. What do we do with the completely useless organic matter? Why feed it to the microbes of course! An active microbial population (along with appropriate accompaniment from Mychorrhizae fungus) will rapidly break down and consume this organic crap. In the process the microbes will up the nutrient content of the soil, fight off unwanted pathogens, balance the pH, chelate your minerals and generally be totally fucking awesome. If your organic soil is stinky more than a couple days after adding nutes you have an inadequate microbe population and all of the trouble you went to going organic has yielded you NO MEASURABLE BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.

-DM

So, organics, its all about the microbes. If we wish to benefit from the use of organics as cannabis cultivators we must become familiar with the needs of these tiny helpers. Meeting those needs can be a bit of a faff.

Some gardeners do what you describe. Some flavor of recirculating hydroponic system. Beneficial bacteria live in the oxygenated reservoir and the whole lot gets pumped about not unlike so many of the hydro techniques out there. This is all well and good, but not optimumly suited for taking care of the microbes. Bacteria can thrive in water-based hydro systems, but bacteria are only half of the microbe equation.

If you've been a good green thumb then you've already digested the sticky threads at the top of the forum. If you haven't then GO DO IT. I'll wait...

..Read them? Good! You should now know all about the benefits of Mycorrhizal Fungi. These dudes are rad and together with strong aerobic bacteria can make many of your hydroponic maintenance concerns a thing of the past. This microbial super-team will complete chores you used to have to do yourself. Balancing the pH, buffing the mineral content, protecting the plants from nutrient lock-out, drought resistance and fighting off unwanted pathogens are some of the major tasks a good set of microbes can complete for the gardener. This level of autonomy is only possible with the bacteria/fungus combo. Going with a water-based recirculating system (especially one that doesn't have a medium) will never get you this. The microbial superteam needs an organic medium to thrive.

Which brings us neatly to the venerable Hempy Bucket. This long-popular method is a simple gravity-feed medium-based hydro system. It features no pumps, resivoirs or other mechanical contrivances. It is ruthlessly simple and very reliable. Trouble is it is very tough to successfully adapt to organics. Even if you get them to work with organic nutes the results can be disappointing as DalaiHempy himself has demonstrated:

Organic hydro

Hydo feed

Very unfortunate. I have determined the reason for this is that HempyBuckets where never designed to support organics. DalaiHempy, the technique's creator, often rails against anyone who suggests the use of organics in a HempyBucket. He rants at length about their inferiority to mineral nutes when used in his buckets. Quite right. But what he confuses, and seems to confuse others about, is that this just means HempyBuckets are inferior for using organics, not that organics are inferior to mineral/salt nutes.

What organic hydro really needs to shine is active oxygen injection. Providing oxygen to the root zone will supercharge your microbial population. Give them food to eat and air to breathe and your microbes are gonna go apeshit. This is what we need to get aggressive with organics, which is the whole point of organic hydro. Providing the best root zone for microbes can be done a few different ways. I would suggest the simplest way is with my OBBT technique. Its an organic grow method which was designed from day one to provide the best possible environment for microbe populations. It steals aspects from DWC, drip-style coco and the HempyBucket. I've got a few gardeners piloting their own versions of the setup right now. Hit the link in my sig to check it out.

Now, this certainly isn't the only way to go about it. Citizen024 has pitched up a rocking thread explaining his organic hydro technique that operates on a much larger scale than anything that would be practical to run with OBBTs. I'm sure some of the organic hydro masters will be in here shortly to extol the virtues of other methods. But for me the ultimate in low-maintenance high-performance organic gardening is the Organic Bubble Bath Tub.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[rrog]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I have been a fan of beneficial microbes for a while. In my last grow I used Cub-Culture + molasses to feed them. Worked well, but with traditional salt nutes.

I'm looking to cut the chemicals from my bud. A healthier smoke is my goal.

I have serious space constraints as I posted in another thread here, so looking to assess if Organic will even work for me. I was hoping that I could continue with the hydro gear I already have, perhaps with modifications.

My current set-up does not have the bottom of the plant pots sitting in nutes. That's the biggest issue I see so far.

 

[Dalaihempy]

Which brings us neatly to the venerable Hempy Bucket. This long-popular method is a simple gravity-feed medium-based hydro system. It features no pumps, resivoirs or other mechanical contrivances. It is ruthlessly simple and very reliable. Trouble is it is very tough to successfully adapt to organics. Even if you get them to work with organic nutes the results can be disappointing as DalaiHempy himself has demonstrated:

It has a built in rez what do you thinks lys below the drain hole thats right a build in rez.

Very unfortunate. I have determined the reason for this is that HempyBuckets where never designed to support organics. DalaiHempy, the technique's creator, often rails against anyone who suggests the use of organics in a HempyBucket. He rants at length about their inferiority to mineral nutes when used in his buckets. Quite right. But what he confuses, and seems to confuse others about, is that this just means HempyBuckets are inferior for using organics, not that organics are inferior to mineral/salt nutes.

Rong agine no suprise organics need to brake down before the plant can take it up from the roots in short feed of the organics but chem ferts will be take up from the plant as soon as there feed there leys the diffrence wich you seam to be avoiding it has nothing to do with airation organic mattrer needs to brake down so the plant can feed of it so say it as it is not twist it around as you like the airation may speed up the brake down of the organics but no way will it be take up by the plant as fast as hydro nutrients thats fact and proven.



Your realy starting to piss me off mate iv stayed out of your posts i have not botherd to post to you or even x paths with you yet you post rubbish and slander like this.

You have not one picture of a cannabis plant of your own you have grown and you carrie on like some guru please you are how old ? how many full grows have you achived in your life few right.

I dont pretend to have all the answears but you seam to think you do.

I have grown arganicly for years also and i grew many trees out doors fact is most growers in this site want a reliuble no bull shit method to grow there medicine wich we call cannabis now you can do it organicly or you can do it useing hydroponics and or a combination of both its up to each grower but at lest put the facts before them so they can make there own minds on wich way to go forwed with.

What we should be doing is stateing real facts here not trying to say this or that methods the best and im not claiming my methods the best never have but im stateing facts wich is organicly grown plants will not grow as fast as hydro grown plants thats a well known fact.

This myth about organics being better for you well is it how do you know the organic matter your useing is clean like is the chicken shit from free range chickens that have not had a diet of steriods and the rest ? , Is the cow shit horse shit clean also is lots of veriants in this organic debate isnt there.

Fact is i dont see any one not telling any one not to grow it organicly or did i not say that you cant use the hempy bucket in organic hydro fact is you can but lets tell the grows the real facts here let them know that if you go organic hydro your yields will be less and the rest no bull shit is the best way to educate and try to better the nolige base as i see it.

Your a classic text book grower your at school still im thinking and have all the answears it seams .

Im asking you agine stay out of my path i will yours.

You run your air lines in the rez amigo but you aint going to make the plants grow like if they were being feed hydro nutrients them the real facts.

 

[rrog]

I have serious space constraints as I posted in another thread here, so looking to assess if Organic will even work for me. I was hoping that I could continue with the hydro gear I already have, perhaps with modifications.

My current set-up does not have the bottom of the plant pots sitting in nutes. That's the biggest issue I see so far.

Sorry for having a confrontational thread. I just wanna grow some weed...

 

[Dalaihempy]

Sorry for having a confrontational thread. I just wanna grow some weed...

you have nothing to say sorry for he had something to say about me i made it clear and answeard him as he need it to sed by me as far as me re posting to him not going to happen if he acts mature and stops with his rants and rubbishing.

Look rrog both organic hydro and normal hydro have something to offer its realy up to you as a grower rich direction you want to go.

What systeam are you infact useing.

You may need to modifi the systeam if your going arganic hydro also.

Lets see if we can infact help you and i my self dont cear what metho or systeam you go with my goal is and always has been to help others grows achive the best possible resolts so lets start with what systeam your running.

 

[rrog]

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=129037 My initial p[ost for help. Thanks for the willingness.

The images and text there give you my basic scenario. Again my primary goal is to have weed with less chemicals. If Organic can help with this, then I'm in.

 

[Citizen024]

Scope out my Pura Vida coco drip thread. Can be done on any size scale. I am guessing your would be small, but its all good still.

Messiahs' organic buckets probably work just fine is used properly, however it requires being able to read your plants well and know thier nutrient needs by feel. This takes experience. If you don't have that down, you might run into trouble if your short on something.

Organic hydro is not as easy as just chucking organic nute's in a res in place of salts. You need to plan and study if this is your route- and previous growing and hydroponic experience is almost neccessary if your going to run organic. I do not recommend organic hydro to new growers.

Done CORRECTLY organics can compete with salts. It most definately can be done. But you better know your shit. There are numerous ways to achieve this, it is a matter of what your needs, objectives, and resources are.

I am staying out of conflicts gentlemen- it's all about sharing and live and let live in my book. You both make contributions: we are all lucky to gain from your knowledge. In the end, each of us must make their own choices, for our own needs.

As far as for you rrog: If your into hydro get yourself a nice easy 2x4 ebb and flow- rockwool, grow rocks, maybe coco/perlite (a great potential organic medium if you really can come to use it properly). Use salts and start playing with some nice stable organic additives at first. Pure Blend Pro/Cal Mag might be a good one for you to start with. Work your way up, get used to the plants. Get used to running systems. Get used to handling all this crap. It'll keep you plenty busy, trust me. If your REALLY into 100% organics (liquids, ammendments, whatever. . .) off the bat, then just go to soil and get used to organics there. Play it safe and easy. If you want a watering system just make a plane old drip watering one for your soil, it's really easy.

No one likes it when their grow turns into a failed science experiment.

 

[Dalaihempy]

I posted in that post but your basicly running flood n drain right so to start with you will need to chage your lines pup so on for organic feeding.

Now you need to work out are you willing to mix and make organic teas for your plants as the only real organic nutrient on the markets BioCanna but it has no N in the mix.



Heres a few emails from Canna.


Technically with any 100% organic/vegan nutrient you can only use these in soil as they need medium for complete breakdown and availability to the plants. Now our products with the refinement of vegetables and oils, we’ve been able to speed up the process but still truly feel you need a soil medium for best results. With this being said, we have many customers who are using the Bio line in many different media like Coco, soil, rockwool, coco/soil/perlite mix and ready-gro mixes with phenomenal results. Again we strongly believe you need the medium to make the organic nutrient complete but many are getting the desired results using non-soil media. So it can be run in a hydroponics set-up that contains some kind of media like the ones mentioned above. Our other concern is the thickness of our Bio line, this will clog any hydroponics system pumps, tubing, drains, etc. so if you are to use it this way it has to be cleaned and monitored daily or best to be hand-watered each feeding without drains to ensure no clogging.



So we don’t condone this use of our Bio line in traditional hydroponics set-ups due to the clogging and in our minds the full effects of organics will not be fully utilized unless there is a soil medium but many use it with wonderful results. I personally have seen it running in these set-ups with phenomenal results but I do like the results in our Bio Terra Plus soil best, pretty amazing. So if there is anyway for you to use the soil, I suggest that route.

 

[Citizen024]

Now you need to work out are you willing to mix and make organic teas for your plants as the only real organic nutrient on the markets BioCanna but it has no N in the mix.

Not quite true. Much respect, no conflict- just facts. Wanted to point out Bio-Bizz is 100% vegan organic. OMRI. And both lines are EXPENSIVE as f**k. Bio Bizz BioHeaven= $250/gal. And both clog lines. He's in drip. I am pretty sure Roots Organic, and I know for sure Pura Vida are both OMRI as well. Rumor is everyone is about to lose their OMRI's due to organic law changes. Pura Vida is already having to change labels I hear- they are back ordered already.

 

[rrog]

Thanks all. Much appreciated. Truly. I have two similar threads going and I'll bow out of this one and continue on my original thread: http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=129037

Thank you

 

[Dalaihempy]

Not quite true. Much respect, no conflict- just facts. Wanted to point out Bio-Bizz is 100% vegan organic. OMRI. And both lines are EXPENSIVE as f**k. Bio Bizz BioHeaven= $250/gal. And both clog lines. He's in drip. I am pretty sure Roots Organic, and I know for sure Pura Vida are both OMRI as well. Rumor is everyone is about to lose their OMRI's due to organic law changes. Pura Vida is already having to change labels I hear- they are back ordered already.

Hiya Citizen024 no much respect to you i read your replie at the other post very good info to i mite add.

I did a lot of research about 12 months back and at the time i belive bio canna was the only certified true organic nutrient on the market but i know of one that was being offerd here in a part A part B for use in both veg and flower that was also expensive but i never went further after my test with biocanna and a diffrent organic formula i gave up for the time being.

I am first to admit im a newbie when it comes to organic hydro but i know the more i research the more i will understand to and as more play around more advances will come in time also in organic hydro to as will more true organic nutrients for hyfro im sure .

I must admit im realy likeing coco as medium.

 

[rrog]

Thank you Hempy. I'm glad you're here.

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

DalaiHempy! Good to see you again! Glad to see that your habit of feeding me intellectual ammunition is still going strong.

I'm very sorry that you feel the need to moderate all usage of the term 'Hempybucket'. Seems every time I talk about it you get very upset! I'll have you know that nothing I said about your method was wrong. You seem to have taken what I said about 'no reservoir' the wrong way. I am well aware that HBs have a small reservoir at the bottom of the tub just like my OBBTs. What I meant that they do not use a large external reservoir with pumps like so many hydro systems out there use.

EVERYTHING I said, and have ever said, about the HempyBucket is true:

It is very simple, reliable and fool-proof if you follow DalaiHempy's instructions
Organics do not yield as well in it as mineral nutes

And if you look carefully you will find that is all I've ever said about them. So lets get some other shit straight:

Rong agine no suprise organics need to brake down before the plant can take it up from the roots in short feed of the organics but chem ferts will be take up from the plant as soon as there feed there leys the diffrence wich you seam to be avoiding it has nothing to do with airation organic mattrer needs to brake down so the plant can feed of it so say it as it is not twist it around as you like the airation may speed up the brake down of the organics but no way will it be take up by the plant as fast as hydro nutrients thats fact and proven.

Gee, if your reading comprehension was on the level of, I dunno, a fifth grader you would have realized that I NEVER avoid the fact that organics need to be broken down in order for their nutrient content to be used by the plant. In fact, that is why I developed my own technique and is the lynch pin behind the majority of my posts. Organics MUST be broken down to be useful!

The point you and I seem to disagree on is how long this break-down period takes and how much it slows the growth of cannabis. You seem to be of the opinion that breakdown of organic nutes happens at a set rate. There is nothing the gardener can do to make the breakdown happen fast enough so that nutrients are constantly available to the plant. And actually this process, despite what you think, has a whole lot to do with aeration. The fact that you think oxygen levels have nothing to do with the biological activity of an organic medium goes to show just how ignorant you are. One half of the important microbes in organics are bacteria. Specifically Aerobic Bacteria. Now I know you aren't very good at reading so I'll simplify that for you:

Aerobic means 'oxygen loving'. These types of bacteria need oxygen to thrive. The more of it they get the more rapidly they are able to metabolize food. So in fact the amount of aeration in your medium has everything to do with the speed of organic breakdown. Even though aeration does not directly facilitate the uptake of organic nutrients they are directly correlated through bacteria.

I think that an aggressive enough set of microbes it is possible to break down organics much faster than the plant can take them up. This is another place where your reading comprehension fails you. You keep saying things like:

You run your air lines in the rez amigo but you aint going to make the plants grow like if they were being feed hydro nutrients them the real facts.

Yea, I do, but that's not the point. The air stone is irrelevant, it doesn't matter how you get the air into the medium! As long as the air levels are high the microbes will stay agressive. I just happen to get this done by using an air stone. Its like you think I just took one of your HempyBuckets and stuck a bubbler at the bottom.

Fuck That.

I had never even heard of the HempyBucket method when I was developing the OBBTs. I discovered it upon coming to this site. Our methods have a few similarities but this is merely coincidence. The fact that mine strongly resembles yours does not mean that the OBBTs are constrained with the same limitations you find with your HempyBuckets. My technique is meant to grow microbes faster and better than any other method. This strong microbial population is what breaks down the organic matter at a fast rate. Nutrients become available to the plants fast enough for the system to be competitive with mineral-fed medium-based hydro.

You think this cannot be done. You've tried it many times. However your HempyBuckets never contain soil. If you look carefully you will find that in the email from Canna that YOU POSTED the importance of soil is made clear:

Heres a few emails from Canna.

Technically with any 100% organic/vegan nutrient you can only use these in soil as they need medium for complete breakdown and availability to the plants...

...and in our minds the full effects of organics will not be fully utilized unless there is a soil medium...if there is anyway for you to use the soil, I suggest that route.

What's that you say hydro expert guru guys!? YOU NEED SOIL!?!? Wait! Hempy buckets don't have soil! GASP!!!!

No soil means incomplete breakdown of organics. Incomplete breakdown means poor nutrient availability. Poor nutrient availability means inferior yields.

It is necessary to have at least some soil in your medium to harbor beneficial fungus along with the bacteria. The Canna guys know this. They know that you need the fungus/bacteria superteam to make the most of their organic nutrients. There you have it, hydro experts AGREEING WITH ME!

Ever since I got into this forum I've been ranting and raving about the importance of soil and oxygen injection in organic hydro mediums. It is because these two things make for superior microbial action and the Canna hydro professionals couldn't agree with me more.

Good job shooting yourself in the foot DalaiHempy. Why don't you bugger off before you start looking even more foolish. I know you don't seem to read very well but the name of this forum is ORGANIC hydro. Seeing how your technique does not work as well using organics and seeing how you don't seem to think that organics are worth a damn for cannbis cultivation why are you even in here? Obviously there are enough gardeners who think that using organics is a worthwile endeavor for cannabis cultivation. You are not of that opinion so why are you here? To shit-talk that's why! You have made no meaningful or helpful additions to this conversation. NONE WHATSOEVER.

All you have done is come in here to tell Citizen024 and I what dumbasses we are. We where getting along fine before you showed up.

If you can get any one of the moderators, mentors or other significant users on this site to agree with you that what I was saying in my first post was in any way un-truthful, therefore making your intervention neccessary, I will LEAVE this forum and NEVER come back!

-DM

 

[Dalaihempy]

Thank you Hempy. I'm glad you're here.

Im not sure im of any use rrog but glad to help wen and if i can i am glad to see you asking lots of questions infact that way you and others can gain.




DrunkenMessiah you know im not even going to read your replie and as i have been judged in the canna commity threw these years i will let them in the canna community over time do the same to you.

 

[rrog]

Im not sure im of any use rrog but glad to help wen and if i can i am glad to see you asking lots of questions infact that way you and others can gain.

I think you're extremely helpful. And thank you again for that.