Three Berries
Active member
Here's a legume that has the N nodules on the roots. It's Hariy Vetch. Nice climbing biennial vine, self seeding, can be noxious up in the northern climes. It's the viny plant with purple flowers.
Replacing Blood meal with Alfalfa meal for the main source of nitrogen
- Thread starter Dr.RedWhite
- Start date
Growdo Baggins
Active member
I just listened to this part of the book today.
@Dr.RedWhite
I absolutely LOVE how no one has the right answer nor does anyone seem to know how to actually figure this out. (because it gives me an opportunity to share and educate others)
Only thing missing from this thread is Gascan telling everyone how stupid they are and why they should be using neem meal instead!!!! It ALMOST feels like the old organic soil forum days!!!
ROFLMAO.
There's no need to fear, dank.Frank is here!!!!
WATCH AND LEARN, everyone...I have made posts about this exact topic - pertaining to the substitution of ANY amendment for NPK profiles. It doesn't take a bunch of conjecture and it doesn't take a bunch of round about explanations of the nitrogen cycle to guess what might happen. I'm willing to make these types of posts so ass hole crooks like those who stole our soil recipes at Build a Soil could be shown for the poser con artists they really are. They have no clue what they are doing - they are just preying on people's desire to grow in an organic or natural format. They are clowns who would not exist if not for the information that was shared and exchanged in the Organic Fanatic Collective social group back over a decade ago. Culture vulture capitalist FRAUDS. My signature, applies to people like the owner of that business. (Jeremy)
Now that I have gotten that out of the way...
It takes a scientific formula and an understanding of how to use amendments efficiently. (I'm actually responsible for developing the 2nd formula listed in this sticky. (the directions in bold typeset) It's my own equation; my own creation. Part A was commonly used in conventional agriculture and provided by university extensions but it was designed for single element ionic salts, ie 50-0-0. If using an organic amendment that had a diversified NPK ratio, there was no formula to give credence to how much of the other elements were being added. I fixed that problem and verified it's correctness and accuracy via multiple weeks of discussions with soil scientists at Cornell.)
Volume is 3 dimensional. 1 cu ft is 6.47 gallons of media. You can insert a standard tillage depth of 7.6" to give a volume metric to determine how many sq ft is in 6.47 gallons of media. IT'S NOT MUCH.
0.925' x 0.925' x 7.6" = 6.5 - so let's say you are working with 0.925 sq ft. THAT is the area you are trying to amend.
1/2c of blood meal weighs roughly 156g and generally has an NPK of 12-0-0.
Fertilizer is measured in lbs per acre so you have to convert.
To that area, you have traditionally applied, 156g of 12-0-0.
156g = 0.344 lbs
1. 0.344 lbs of blood meal x 0.12 (% of nitrogen) = 0.04128
2. 43,560 sq ft per acre / 0.925 sq ft = 47,091.892
3. 0.04128 x 47,091.892 = 1,943.95 lbs of N applied
So you want to attempt to provide that same level of Nitrogen, using a different amendment.
Alfalfa meal, traditionally runs about 3-2-2, but we are just focusing on the nitrogen replacement.
1. 1,944 lbs/acre / 43,560 sq ft/acre = 0.04463
2. 0.04463 x 0.925 sq ft = 0.04128
3. 0.04128 / 0.03 = 1.376 lbs of Alfalfa meal needed.
Alfalfa meal weighs about 246g per cup.
1.376 lbs = 624.1431 grams
624.1431 / 246 = 2.537
So you need about 2.5 cups of alfalfa meal.
You're welcome. This is why ICmag will ALWAYS be the best resource for growers. We will ALWAYS help educate people who want to learn to do it the right way. Good luck with your grow!
PS - F.U.C.K. Build-a-Soil - in case you missed that.
This is why my water only soil mixes and recipes ACTUALLY WORK and you don't see me telling anyone to buy all these additional aloes or coconut water or ferments or or or or or or. They HAVE to sell you those things to cover their asses for having inadequate soil recipes to begin with!!!
I believe in TRUE OPEN SOURCE KNOWLEDGE - and overgrowing prohibition by enabling people to succeed. They believe in getting more of your money.
dank.Frank
I absolutely LOVE how no one has the right answer nor does anyone seem to know how to actually figure this out. (because it gives me an opportunity to share and educate others)
Only thing missing from this thread is Gascan telling everyone how stupid they are and why they should be using neem meal instead!!!! It ALMOST feels like the old organic soil forum days!!!
ROFLMAO.
There's no need to fear, dank.Frank is here!!!!
WATCH AND LEARN, everyone...I have made posts about this exact topic - pertaining to the substitution of ANY amendment for NPK profiles. It doesn't take a bunch of conjecture and it doesn't take a bunch of round about explanations of the nitrogen cycle to guess what might happen. I'm willing to make these types of posts so ass hole crooks like those who stole our soil recipes at Build a Soil could be shown for the poser con artists they really are. They have no clue what they are doing - they are just preying on people's desire to grow in an organic or natural format. They are clowns who would not exist if not for the information that was shared and exchanged in the Organic Fanatic Collective social group back over a decade ago. Culture vulture capitalist FRAUDS. My signature, applies to people like the owner of that business. (Jeremy)
Now that I have gotten that out of the way...
It takes a scientific formula and an understanding of how to use amendments efficiently. (I'm actually responsible for developing the 2nd formula listed in this sticky. (the directions in bold typeset) It's my own equation; my own creation. Part A was commonly used in conventional agriculture and provided by university extensions but it was designed for single element ionic salts, ie 50-0-0. If using an organic amendment that had a diversified NPK ratio, there was no formula to give credence to how much of the other elements were being added. I fixed that problem and verified it's correctness and accuracy via multiple weeks of discussions with soil scientists at Cornell.)
Measuring Amendments
I've gotten asked countless times over the years for the weight of various amendments. It would have come in handy for myself years ago if this type of information had been made available. With that in mind, this chart, expresses the weight (in grams) of various amendments in different...
www.icmag.com
Volume is 3 dimensional. 1 cu ft is 6.47 gallons of media. You can insert a standard tillage depth of 7.6" to give a volume metric to determine how many sq ft is in 6.47 gallons of media. IT'S NOT MUCH.
0.925' x 0.925' x 7.6" = 6.5 - so let's say you are working with 0.925 sq ft. THAT is the area you are trying to amend.
1/2c of blood meal weighs roughly 156g and generally has an NPK of 12-0-0.
Fertilizer is measured in lbs per acre so you have to convert.
To that area, you have traditionally applied, 156g of 12-0-0.
156g = 0.344 lbs
1. 0.344 lbs of blood meal x 0.12 (% of nitrogen) = 0.04128
2. 43,560 sq ft per acre / 0.925 sq ft = 47,091.892
3. 0.04128 x 47,091.892 = 1,943.95 lbs of N applied
So you want to attempt to provide that same level of Nitrogen, using a different amendment.
Alfalfa meal, traditionally runs about 3-2-2, but we are just focusing on the nitrogen replacement.
1. 1,944 lbs/acre / 43,560 sq ft/acre = 0.04463
2. 0.04463 x 0.925 sq ft = 0.04128
3. 0.04128 / 0.03 = 1.376 lbs of Alfalfa meal needed.
Alfalfa meal weighs about 246g per cup.
1.376 lbs = 624.1431 grams
624.1431 / 246 = 2.537
So you need about 2.5 cups of alfalfa meal.
You're welcome. This is why ICmag will ALWAYS be the best resource for growers. We will ALWAYS help educate people who want to learn to do it the right way. Good luck with your grow!
PS - F.U.C.K. Build-a-Soil - in case you missed that.
This is why my water only soil mixes and recipes ACTUALLY WORK and you don't see me telling anyone to buy all these additional aloes or coconut water or ferments or or or or or or. They HAVE to sell you those things to cover their asses for having inadequate soil recipes to begin with!!!
I believe in TRUE OPEN SOURCE KNOWLEDGE - and overgrowing prohibition by enabling people to succeed. They believe in getting more of your money.
dank.Frank
Last edited:
On a side note, the idea that alfalfa is "hot" is perpetuated by people who wanted you to use something else...(inset ROLS cucks and neem meal)
BLOOD MEAL...is HOT and is a very quick release, highly available provider of nitrogen. Alfalfa meal, is a medium to slow release nutrient and requires much more break down. Not to mention, it's not a very dense provider of nutrition to begin with, compared to other amendments whose nutritional profile is much higher.
My personal target for nitrogen in a cannabis based soil mix is 740 lbs per acre. Notice you are over 1,900 lbs per acre at your current application rate.
Part of what makes a successful soil mix, is diversity of inputs. In part because it creates variations in bio-availability but also because it fosters a broader range of diversity within bacterial and fungal populations in the rhizosphere as well.
I'd personally suggest you KEEP using blood meal so that you have some immediately available nitrogen. I also support the idea of integrating some alfalfa meal so you have some longer term provision for the plant as it matures and gets bigger.
With an organic soil, the concept of GIVING MORE NUTRITION, isn't always better. Cost metrics and efficiency of application should be a focal point as well. It's better to have a proper balance where needs are met, than it is to over feed. With mobile nutrients like nitrogen, you will simply flush those ions out of the media with any given run off. It is possible to feed to little as well, where you find yourself needed to top dress or apply a tea or a ferment or other means of playing catch up because the soil is falling short of the plants nutritional needs.
The ideal balance - as a plant fills out the container, and is ready for transplant, it has used the nutrition present. That's when you're supposed to transplant anyway to prevent root binding. A hungry plant hungry for nitrogen, will begin to yellow off from the bottom up as it begins to translocate nitrogen from the lower leaves to the apical growth shoots. It begins to cannibalize itself, quite literally.
In an organic soil media, it is better to provide more root space - than to play catch up or overfeed and be wasteful with the application of your amendments and your finances.
If you think the guys who are "crop steering" and using Athena at 3.0ec and pulling 4lbs a light of cardboard terps don't know EXACTLY how much each gram of production costs them - then you are mistaken - and you are going to drown in overhead due to your own inefficiency, while trying to do the right thing by producing a true quality product.
dank.Frank
BLOOD MEAL...is HOT and is a very quick release, highly available provider of nitrogen. Alfalfa meal, is a medium to slow release nutrient and requires much more break down. Not to mention, it's not a very dense provider of nutrition to begin with, compared to other amendments whose nutritional profile is much higher.
My personal target for nitrogen in a cannabis based soil mix is 740 lbs per acre. Notice you are over 1,900 lbs per acre at your current application rate.
Part of what makes a successful soil mix, is diversity of inputs. In part because it creates variations in bio-availability but also because it fosters a broader range of diversity within bacterial and fungal populations in the rhizosphere as well.
I'd personally suggest you KEEP using blood meal so that you have some immediately available nitrogen. I also support the idea of integrating some alfalfa meal so you have some longer term provision for the plant as it matures and gets bigger.
With an organic soil, the concept of GIVING MORE NUTRITION, isn't always better. Cost metrics and efficiency of application should be a focal point as well. It's better to have a proper balance where needs are met, than it is to over feed. With mobile nutrients like nitrogen, you will simply flush those ions out of the media with any given run off. It is possible to feed to little as well, where you find yourself needed to top dress or apply a tea or a ferment or other means of playing catch up because the soil is falling short of the plants nutritional needs.
The ideal balance - as a plant fills out the container, and is ready for transplant, it has used the nutrition present. That's when you're supposed to transplant anyway to prevent root binding. A hungry plant hungry for nitrogen, will begin to yellow off from the bottom up as it begins to translocate nitrogen from the lower leaves to the apical growth shoots. It begins to cannibalize itself, quite literally.
In an organic soil media, it is better to provide more root space - than to play catch up or overfeed and be wasteful with the application of your amendments and your finances.
If you think the guys who are "crop steering" and using Athena at 3.0ec and pulling 4lbs a light of cardboard terps don't know EXACTLY how much each gram of production costs them - then you are mistaken - and you are going to drown in overhead due to your own inefficiency, while trying to do the right thing by producing a true quality product.
dank.Frank
Bio boy
Active member
The more I look for relevant information to claims I think I’ve found so I find frank blasting out what I expected@Dr.RedWhite
I absolutely LOVE how no one has the right answer nor does anyone seem to know how to actually figure this out. (because it gives me an opportunity to share and educate others)
Only thing missing from this thread is Gascan telling everyone how stupid they are and why they should be using neem meal instead!!!! It ALMOST feels like the old organic soil forum days!!!
ROFLMAO.
There's no need to fear, dank.Frank is here!!!!
WATCH AND LEARN, everyone...I have made posts about this exact topic - pertaining to the substitution of ANY amendment for NPK profiles. It doesn't take a bunch of conjecture and it doesn't take a bunch of round about explanations of the nitrogen cycle to guess what might happen. I'm willing to make these types of posts so ass hole crooks like those who stole our soil recipes at Build a Soil could be shown for the poser con artists they really are. They have no clue what they are doing - they are just preying on people's desire to grow in an organic or natural format. They are clowns who would not exist if not for the information that was shared and exchanged in the Organic Fanatic Collective social group back over a decade ago. Culture vulture capitalist FRAUDS. My signature, applies to people like the owner of that business. (Jeremy)
Now that I have gotten that out of the way...
It takes a scientific formula and an understanding of how to use amendments efficiently. (I'm actually responsible for developing the 2nd formula listed in this sticky. (the directions in bold typeset) It's my own equation; my own creation. Part A was commonly used in conventional agriculture and provided by university extensions but it was designed for single element ionic salts, ie 50-0-0. If using an organic amendment that had a diversified NPK ratio, there was no formula to give credence to how much of the other elements were being added. I fixed that problem and verified it's correctness and accuracy via multiple weeks of discussions with soil scientists at Cornell.)
Measuring Amendments
I've gotten asked countless times over the years for the weight of various amendments. It would have come in handy for myself years ago if this type of information had been made available. With that in mind, this chart, expresses the weight (in grams) of various amendments in different...www.icmag.com
Volume is 3 dimensional. 1 cu ft is 6.47 gallons of media. You can insert a standard tillage depth of 7.6" to give a volume metric to determine how many sq ft is in 6.47 gallons of media. IT'S NOT MUCH.
0.925' x 0.925' x 7.6" = 6.5 - so let's say you are working with 0.925 sq ft. THAT is the area you are trying to amend.
1/2c of blood meal weighs roughly 156g and generally has an NPK of 12-0-0.
Fertilizer is measured in lbs per acre so you have to convert.
To that area, you have traditionally applied, 156g of 12-0-0.
156g = 0.344 lbs
1. 0.344 lbs of blood meal x 0.12 (% of nitrogen) = 0.04128
2. 43,560 sq ft per acre / 0.925 sq ft = 47,091.892
3. 0.04128 x 47,091.892 = 1,943.95 lbs of N applied
So you want to attempt to provide that same level of Nitrogen, using a different amendment.
Alfalfa meal, traditionally runs about 3-2-2, but we are just focusing on the nitrogen replacement.
1. 1,944 lbs/acre / 43,560 sq ft/acre = 0.04463
2. 0.04463 x 0.925 sq ft = 0.04128
3. 0.04128 / 0.03 = 1.376 lbs of Alfalfa meal needed.
Alfalfa meal weighs about 246g per cup.
1.376 lbs = 624.1431 grams
624.1431 / 246 = 2.537
So you need about 2.5 cups of alfalfa meal.
You're welcome. This is why ICmag will ALWAYS be the best resource for growers. We will ALWAYS help educate people who want to learn to do it the right way. Good luck with your grow!
PS - F.U.C.K. Build-a-Soil - in case you missed that.
This is why my water only soil mixes and recipes ACTUALLY WORK and you don't see me telling anyone to buy all these additional aloes or coconut water or ferments or or or or or or. They HAVE to sell you those things to cover their asses for having inadequate soil recipes to begin with!!!
I believe in TRUE OPEN SOURCE KNOWLEDGE - and overgrowing prohibition by enabling people to succeed. They believe in getting more of your money.
dank.Frank
I was going to rebuild my soil like in the beginning after finding out na rod did my damage
but then I find each amendment I used or did use I don’t like now ha and more n more I find myself slowly building what looks like dank franks soil
think ima bite the bullet n do franks soil seems more complete without introducing sodium everywhere and neem shit
