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Need to flush for overfertilizaton advice please

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
I'd give it another day to recover unless it continues to decline. Ignore any suggestions of adding H2O2 for extra oxygen, I don't believe in oxidizing nutrients in the soil for plant health. ;) (I know someone was about to suggest it! lol)

(Edit: Anyone with kids about to learn to ride a bike... check out Strider Bikes! No pedals, no training wheels. Kids learn to balance as they push on a bike. Once they're good with balance and steering, put em on a real bike and they literally take off. lol)
 

Rtaym22224

Active member
I'd give it another day to recover unless it continues to decline. Ignore any suggestions of adding H2O2 for extra oxygen, I don't believe in oxidizing nutrients in the soil for plant health. ;) (I know someone was about to suggest it! lol)

(Edit: Anyone with kids about to learn to ride a bike... check out Strider Bikes! No pedals, no training wheels. Kids learn to balance as they push on a bike. Once they're good with balance and steering, put em on a real bike and they literally take off. lol)
Ok. If it’s not looking better in 36 hours I will dispose of it, possibly sooner
 

GoatCheese

Well-known member
Move the re-potted plant to the side of the tent or somewhere where it’s not directly under the light or a fan for the next week. After re-potting it will take a while to get the plant going, it won’t happen in a day or two. Just try to make it easy and stress free for it while it’s recovering.

The plant looks better than in the first photos you posted. Don’t worry.

It will take a good while till it starts growing normally again. At first it will focus mainly on growing roots. You need patience and go easy with the watering. It’s better if you allow the soil to go fairly dry before next watering or two and go easy with it – don’t soak the soil.

:::

Maybe it’s a phenotype that doesn’t like over watering. Some plants, even out of the same bag of seeds , are like that as i mentioned in my earlier post. Maybe it has weaker root system in general than the others, maybe you didn't over water the others as badly.

Wait a week or two and then start worrying if things are still not looking much better. It takes time for the plant to recover when you fuck them up proper - you won’t see much improvement the first couple of days.
 

Somatek

Well-known member
Great response thank you. I’ll ditch the neem
There's no actual proof that neem on cannabis causes any sort of poisoning, just a lot of assumptions based off anecdotes which ignores the science. It's an incredibly useful product if you need to use pesticides, here's an article debunking the theory that "neem oil poisoning" is a problem.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Considering how stupid simple mites and insects are to handle, there is zero need for neem with cannabis. ;)

As for the neem subject, I recently realized there are zero reported cases of CHS until a few years after the successful synthesis of the azadirachtin molecule. What if the issue all these years has been with synthetic azadirachtin, and the synthetic is only in some products? This would explain why it is such an issue in the states and few other places.

To simply discount the experiences of millions of people is rather slow thinking. I suffered for years till I figured out the cause of my problems. The fact 'they' all consider it safe just brings to mind the whole asbestos fiasco. *shrug*
 

Hmong

Well-known member
What if the issue all these years has been with synthetic azadirachtin, and the synthetic is only in some products? This would explain why it is such an issue in the states and few other places.

likely so

I'm hardly ever using it anymore, after also "thinking" it caused me issues at first.
but it's bollocks, none of the products I used here in EU were synthetic.
It was either natural neem oil + extra emulsifier or neem seed meal, when I had root aphids.

the plants loved the neem, but I would only apply it for major bug infestations anymore.
Also would not recommend a systemic approach, using it all the time on stuff I smoke daily.
the only thing u should spray on your plants on regular basis with, is plain water or effective microorganisms, that should be your basic IPM.
 

Somatek

Well-known member
Considering how stupid simple mites and insects are to handle, there is zero need for neem with cannabis. ;)

As for the neem subject, I recently realized there are zero reported cases of CHS until a few years after the successful synthesis of the azadirachtin molecule. What if the issue all these years has been with synthetic azadirachtin, and the synthetic is only in some products? This would explain why it is such an issue in the states and few other places.

To simply discount the experiences of millions of people is rather slow thinking. I suffered for years till I figured out the cause of my problems. The fact 'they' all consider it safe just brings to mind the whole asbestos fiasco. *shrug*
As the article states it's more likely the correlation is between excess consumption of high THC concentrates causing a disregulation in the cannabinoid system, which is why it's recently emerged as a distinct issue from CVS being diagnosed by the distinguishing feature of patients getting relief from hot showers or capsaicin oil; both which stimulate the TRVP1 receptors. CHS lacks the distinguishing features of neem poisoning which is why it's discounted as a cause by the medical community. That's the kind of cognitive bias where you're trying to rationalize why your theory makes sense instead of the simple explanation that as stronger concentrates have become more available, there's a correlation of people experiencing CHS to the point we can clearly differentiate it from CVS when previously any rare cases of CHS were likely misdiagnosed due to a lack of understanding. The article clearly mentions how rare CHS is, so it's hard to take anecdotal experience seriously when it contradicts the science. Can you explain why CHS doesn't have the other symptoms of neem poisoning mentioned in the article like acidic blood and swelling of the nervous system? Why do only one symptom, cyclical vomiting, match between the two issues when you'd expect all the symptoms to line up if they are caused by the same thing?
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Spare me the concentrates angle, I use vast amounts of CLEAN flower and can vape CLEAN concentrates till I pass out. One bowl of heavily tainted flower has my guts churning after a few tokes. I lived in a hot shower for years. The cannabis plant only absorbs the aza, so there are no other poison symptoms. Makes perfect sense.

Unless you have personally experienced CHS, and had it go away when you remove neem/aza from your cannabis, I recommend you stop quoting the "it's perfectly safe" bullshit.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
It's a rather poor article but it does show the confusion on the subject. In the last 7 years I have spoken and posted with several dozen sufferers of CHS. In person and online.

Only two of them continue to have CHS symptoms when removing neem oil, meal and extracts from their cannabis supply. Like me, the rest of them can use all the high thc flower and extracts they want but have issues with tainted cannabis/extracts.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
When I go in a pool with water in it... I get wet. I quit going in pools with water in them and I do not get wet. Problem solved.

Can you show me a different explanation of how I could keep dry in a pool other than avoiding the water filled ones?

It really is that cut and dried for those of us who have the issue.
 

Somatek

Well-known member
It's a rather poor article but it does show the confusion on the subject. In the last 7 years I have spoken and posted with several dozen sufferers of CHS. In person and online.

Only two of them continue to have CHS symptoms when removing neem oil, meal and extracts from their cannabis supply. Like me, the rest of them can use all the high thc flower and extracts they want but have issues with tainted cannabis/extracts.
Anecdotes aren't evidence and if you're only exhibiting one symptom without the rest like acidified blood or swelling in the nervous system then it's hard to put weight in as like the article says it's just as likely cognitive bias forming your opinion. Which makes your reply kind of comical as it illustrates exactly what the article was talking about; ignoring the facts which don't fit because you're belief that it has to be something other then simply being an imbalance in the endocannabinoid system is more important to you.
 

Somatek

Well-known member
When I go in a pool with water in it... I get wet. I quit going in pools with water in them and I do not get wet. Problem solved.

Can you show me a different explanation of how I could keep dry in a pool other than avoiding the water filled ones?

It really is that cut and dried for those of us who have the issue.
Sure, wear a dry suit to prevent the water from getting you wet but that idea makes about as much sense as saying "this rock protects me from purple people eaters" because I've never been eaten by one. Correlation doesn't mean causation and more importantly anecdotes aren't evidence or facts. Those are measurable things like how neem oil poisoning makes our blood more acidic which isn't a symptom of CHS, which makes it illogical to assume one causes the other. Your deflections from facts illustrates how you ignore things that don't fit your theory because you can't explain them which undermines your argument. If it were cut and dry then there wouldn't be so many inconsistencies that you can't explain, without even getting into the issue of whether people you've talked to actually have this rare condition or if they're just erroneously self diagnosing themselves. Which again is the problem with anecdotal evidence and basing your argument on it when it ignores facts.
 

goingrey

Well-known member
Sure, wear a dry suit to prevent the water from getting you wet but that idea makes about as much sense as saying "this rock protects me from purple people eaters" because I've never been eaten by one. Correlation doesn't mean causation and more importantly anecdotes aren't evidence or facts. Those are measurable things like how neem oil poisoning makes our blood more acidic which isn't a symptom of CHS, which makes it illogical to assume one causes the other. Your deflections from facts illustrates how you ignore things that don't fit your theory because you can't explain them which undermines your argument. If it were cut and dry then there wouldn't be so many inconsistencies that you can't explain, without even getting into the issue of whether people you've talked to actually have this rare condition or if they're just erroneously self diagnosing themselves. Which again is the problem with anecdotal evidence and basing your argument on it when it ignores facts.
Anecdotal evidence isn't conclusive proof one way or the other but it's also not nothing.

Using neem in veg is probs pretty safe though.
 

Somatek

Well-known member
Anecdotal evidence isn't conclusive proof one way or the other but it's also not nothing.

Using neem in veg is probs pretty safe though.
Anecdotal evidence is a great jumping off point but if the facts don't line up like in the case of neem oil causing CHS compared to other theories, more to the point if it ignores facts like the acidification of blood caused by azadirachtin poisoning which isn't seen in CHS, the it's not worth putting much weight in. Especially when compared to other theories that work with all the facts like TRVP1 and the endocannabinoid systems being interrelated and TRVP1 receptors also being triggered by hot showers/capsaicin oil which would explain why people find relief from them. We're talking about unproven theories here, one relies purely on anecdotal evidence and ignores how the symptoms factually don't line up compared to another which explains the correlation between CHS showing up with the emergence of cheap concentrates by looking at the interactions in our bodies but is only really disputed by people who strongly signify with cannabis and believe it can't cause harm. To be clear I personally think pot is one of the safest substances we use and preached that for a decade or more but regardless of that anything used in excess causes problems, as an old raver I've always been aware of that as simply drinking too much water can kill us despite it being undeniably essential to our survival. So when I look at something as rare as CHS and how infrequently we see it compared to how widely neem oil was used for over a decade without seeing a correlation in CHS coming out until the availability of high potency/low cost extracts and then looking at the science around CHS and how widely the idea of it being related to pesticide use is dismissed, it's not hard to weigh them to me. As well as debating the issue as it was drilled into me in my youth that freedom entails personal responsibility and understanding the risks involved in your choices (even if incredibly minimal). If CHS is potentially related to excess consumption then that's something everyone should know so they can mitigate the risks by moderating their usage. It's not like anyone needs to taking 1g dabs all day long but that's definitely an expression of the pot culture which has popped up because of the thinking that it's harmless. Blaming neem oil based on anecdotes just exasperates that kind of thinking and is a reflection of it.
 

goingrey

Well-known member
I think I remember Hamilton Morris saying somewhere that the prevalence of CHS with synthetic cannabinoid users led the consensus to be that it is indeed an endocannabinoid system issue and not due to pesticides (not just neem) as was suspected before. But dunno his sources or if it was even him who said it.

Even so, smoking weed with pesticides could well produce similar symptoms?
 

Somatek

Well-known member
I think I remember Hamilton Morris saying somewhere that the prevalence of CHS with synthetic cannabinoid users led the consensus to be that it is indeed an endocannabinoid system issue and not due to pesticides (not just neem) as was suspected before. But dunno his sources or if it was even him who said it.

Even so, smoking weed with pesticides could well produce similar symptoms?
Other studies mention that pesticides are an unlikely source as it's seen in people using purely synthetic cannabinoids, more facts that have to be ignored to believe the idea. As to whether it could be causing some other issue that's a possibility but if it was the case I'd expect it to be more widespread and to have shown up earlier, correlating with when neem oil started to be widely used in the early 2000's/late 90's. Most references to neem poisoning come up later though, closer to when we see the emergence of cheap concentrates because of states legalizing along with people disputing that it's caused by excess cannabis use. It's the fact that it emerged as a counter argument to the idea that CHS is caused by neem poisoning, which is roundly dismissed now as there's more plausible explanations that make it hard to take seriously. Especially when it's anecdotal evidence from people self diagnosing which is highly prone to pre-existing bias.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Look, we are not talking about neem poisoning... the symptoms for it (aside from the nausea) are not what I am talking about.

AZADIRACHTIN, in combination with cannabis, causes all the same symptoms as CHS. In addition, it is also the only poison I know which can cause bouts of hypothermia in a temperate environment.

You think you know what you are copy pasting and regurgitating, but you have zero personal experience. Good job.

Have you personally grown both neem and clean cannabis, and tested it on CHS sufferers? I have. No conjecture or assumptions here, I have proven it and am only waiting for the lab coats to finally figure it out and tell the rest of you.
 

Somatek

Well-known member
Look, we are not talking about neem poisoning... the symptoms for it (aside from the nausea) are not what I am talking about.

AZADIRACHTIN, in combination with cannabis, causes all the same symptoms as CHS. In addition, it is also the only poison I know which can cause bouts of hypothermia in a temperate environment.

You think you know what you are copy pasting and regurgitating, but you have zero personal experience. Good job.

Have you personally grown both neem and clean cannabis, and tested it on CHS sufferers? I have. No conjecture or assumptions here, I have proven it and am only waiting for the lab coats to finally figure it out and tell the rest of you.
From the posted link "However, azadirachtin poisonings are rare and symptoms also include not just vomiting, but seizures, acidic blood, and deadly nervous system swelling." Neem/azadirachtin poisoning symptoms don't match CHS, your selective focus on specific symptoms while ignoring the facts about the rest of them undermines you're argument based solely on anecdotal evidence. Show us this proof, you've mentioned it over the years but never actually produce anything. Someone in this thread has already mentioned they use to believe it but now acknowledge it's bunk science. You've only mislead people who don't understand the subject and reinforced peoples existing bias, there are no references in peer reviewed papers that support your opinion and the growing body of evidence points in entirely different direction. I can't wait for the day when growing pot has been properly studied for best practices so we have facts to work from, I will be very surprised if it validates any of your ideas though and until then I have no problem using neem oil if needed. Again, your anecdotes just affirm your assumptions but aren't consistent proof from person to person's experience.

As to my personal experiences I have actually struggled with CHS/CVS like symptoms for years but it's complicated as I've had undiagnosed digestive issues for over a decade. I normally smoke home grown bud and use neem oil when necessary although for the last year I've been smoking dry farmed outdoor plants (i.e. a fancy way to say planted and ignored for the rest of the year as I was living in a different city) which had no neem applied. There has been no difference in my stomach issues, although I don't consider that relevant because it's anecdotal and would rely on me deciding it's CHS as the symptoms fit without a proper diagnosis. Something I suspect is often the case in your anecdotal evidence as confirmed cases of CHS are pretty rare but that's an assumption as you've never shared your "proof" for people to analyse.
 

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