Masterblend Mg deficiencies under LEDs

[Coconaut81]

Anybody seeing MG deficiencies with the usual 2-2-1 masterblend ratio, in coco under Samsung Lm301 LEDs? 2-2-2 in 140ppm tap water seems to be the better ratio under high powered LEDs. At least, that's what eyes are seeing round these parts.. However, the 2-2-1 works great for veggies under those same LEDs!

 

[troutman]

If in doubt, add a pinch of epsom salt to your water to get more Magnesium.

 

[Koondense]

Did you increase the ppm in flower?
Basically 3-3-1,5 if you had 2-2-1 for veg.

Cheers

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Quick test for Mg deficiency is to foliar feed a few leaves. Should it be Mg, the yellowing will go away overnight.

 

[f-e]

It's an Mg loving plant. Perhaps the veg are not.

Some have said Mg is the first thing to increase, for the extra growth potential of LEDs. That is sits at the heart of the green, though I have to consider it's not alone there.

If the 140 tap is mostly Ca then the Mg will be suppressed. It's why calmag comes together. Usually with iron as both suppress iron, which many confuse for an Mg problem.

 

[Coconaut81]

I definitely upped the EC as they grew. I was running Jack's 321 before this. In order for Masterblend to mimick the full strength sulfer and magnesium Jack's 3.6, 2.4, 1.2 has, it would need 3.5 grams of Epsom added per gallon. According to this chart.

 

[Coconaut81]

It's an Mg loving plant. Perhaps the veg are not.

Some have said Mg is the first thing to increase, for the extra growth potential of LEDs. That is sits at the heart of the green, though I have to consider it's not alone there.

If the 140 tap is mostly Ca then the Mg will be suppressed. It's why calmag comes together. Usually with iron as both suppress iron, which many confuse for an Mg problem.

Everytime I think I have it figured out, I realize I don't know shit. Lol. Im only a year, year and a half into working with salts and LEDs. This a whole new ballgame. I'm going to try some added iron now. Thanks for the tip. I'm sure there's a whole lot we don't even understand yet, about plant metabolism under LEDs. The technology advances so quickly

 

[f-e]

Iron and Mg are often mistaken. Similar signs, on different parts of the plant. There would normally be enough in a base feed, but when we buy extra calcium, it comes with the Mg and Fe it antagonizes. Adding Mg alone shouldn't really bother iron like Ca does. But Ca bothers both. Hence Calmag+ and such like.

 

[Coconaut81]

Iron and Mg are often mistaken. Similar signs, on different parts of the plant. There would normally be enough in a base feed, but when we buy extra calcium, it comes with the Mg and Fe it antagonizes. Adding Mg alone shouldn't really bother iron like Ca does. But Ca bothers both. Hence Calmag+ and such like.

What iron do you use? I'm looking at ferrous sulfate, for the added sulfer as well. But there's also

EDDHA 6% Fe
EDTA 13% Fe
DTPA 11% Fe

I have some homework to do lol

 

[f-e]

eBay had EDTA. That's all the choice I got. However it does seem to come up a lot in trials. Where it's effectiveness beside the sulfate option is usually part of field tests.

I use 0.01g per liter for a 1.3ppm lift. Most shop feeds contain 0.3 - 3.6 ppm. I seem to keep buying the 0.3ppm ones and getting problems. Leading me towards 0.02g per liter.

If your feed is low on Fe it's likely to be low on Zn also. Zn is a big issue for yield, but antagonises Fe. It couldn't be there in quantity if the Fe isn't. Both favour a low pH, but especially Zn. If pH is a driving problem, look for signs of each.


Damn. I sound like an expert. I need to get out more

 

[Coconaut81]

eBay had EDTA. That's all the choice I got. However it does seem to come up a lot in trials. Where it's effectiveness beside the sulfate option is usually part of field tests.

I use 0.01g per liter for a 1.3ppm lift. Most shop feeds contain 0.3 - 3.6 ppm. I seem to keep buying the 0.3ppm ones and getting problems. Leading me towards 0.02g per liter.

If your feed is low on Fe it's likely to be low on Zn also. Zn is a big issue for yield, but antagonises Fe. It couldn't be there in quantity if the Fe isn't. Both favour a low pH, but especially Zn. If pH is a driving problem, look for signs of each.


Damn. I sound like an expert. I need to get out more

No, please don't get out more! We neeeeeeed you in the lab! Lol. Your knowledge is priceless to us all!

so if iron is antagonized by zinc, would you advise just using a complete boost in ALL micros instead of just Zn and Fe?

 

[Three Berries]

Couple of 16 d nails, one plain and the other galvanized should provide iron and zinc over a grow in soil.

 

[Coconaut81]

Couple of 16 d nails, one plain and the other galvanized should provide iron and zinc over a grow in soil.

Would nails work in a rez??

 

[mexweed]

I got some reddish fan leaf stems but they're also probably like 8 weeks veg in 1 gallon the chemdawg is probably 3ft

I flowered out my last round what I would consider not bad since it was my first run growing a way I never had before

 

[Three Berries]

Would nails work in a rez??

If the pH is under 6.0 I would say yes.

 

[Coconaut81]

If the pH is under 6.0 I would say yes.

Hmmm. Which Iron and zinc would that turn into in the water? Oxides???

 

[Three Berries]

Hmmm. Which Iron and zinc would that turn into in the water? Oxides???

The acid should release free elements, so Fe+ and Zn+. Once exposed to oxygen then it would bind.

 

[f-e]

Have you seen the price of nails these days. It might actually cost less and be easier to dose chelates.

I have a trace mix I use from Canna. While I can easily double everything else with it, it has hardly any Fe in it. It wouldn't work alone. I think they keep the Fe out, as it's a deficiency that comes up all the time, and is often treated individually. Such as when using calmag, that tends to contain some in the small print as a deficiency is so likely.

Zn is just worth looking for, as an indication of pH problems. Though if you do raise Fe, it's almost a shame not to raise Zn, after reading some of the remarkable field tests. You need next to nothing though.

Joking aside, I'm not sure how you would dose nails. In a 200L tank, I would be using 0.5g of elemental iron. There at every feed like a nail in soil. While in a tank, the nails slowly, continually, add some. I know many people are happy with unknown teaspoon sizes in unknown gallons, but me... I'm just too science led to ever use either. I have seen deficiency and looked over lots of bottles to see why I'm getting one. As such, there is no number of nails I was missing, or should target. I just can't quantify that.

 

[Coconaut81]

Have you seen the price of nails these days. It might actually cost less and be easier to dose chelates.

I have a trace mix I use from Canna. While I can easily double everything else with it, it has hardly any Fe in it. It wouldn't work alone. I think they keep the Fe out, as it's a deficiency that comes up all the time, and is often treated individually. Such as when using calmag, that tends to contain some in the small print as a deficiency is so likely.

Zn is just worth looking for, as an indication of pH problems. Though if you do raise Fe, it's almost a shame not to raise Zn, after reading some of the remarkable field tests. You need next to nothing though.

Joking aside, I'm not sure how you would dose nails. In a 200L tank, I would be using 0.5g of elemental iron. There at every feed like a nail in soil. While in a tank, the nails slowly, continually, add some. I know many people are happy with unknown teaspoon sizes in unknown gallons, but me... I'm just too science led to ever use either. I have seen deficiency and looked over lots of bottles to see why I'm getting one. As such, there is no number of nails I was missing, or should target. I just can't quantify that.

I completely agree, I need something I can actually measure and see with my own eyes. I like working with salts and measuring quantities and taking notes. Nails are a great idea, that I'll definitely explore when growing organic.

So you aim for 1.3ppm boost in iron,, which would bring your total to what level? The masterblend im running, has 2.64ppm iron at full strength. Also has .33ppm zinc. So the MB has about 10% less iron than Jack's, and over twice the amount of zinc.

I usually start off feeding pretty low early veg which is when I saw issues. I think I should keep all the micros at full strength when running lighter macros, till they are able to take full strength feeds. I read so many people running high ppms from start to finish. I'm kinda leary to. I've toasted quite a few plants in my day.. and it's heart breaking lol

 

[f-e]

I have settled around 3.5ppm of iron. I know it's at the upper end of commercial supplies, but iron toxicity is a rare thing and comes from other sources such as rusty pipes. I bet I could go lower, but it would just be to save a little money. My last couple of feeds that stated it, were under 1ppm and gave problems. At first I give 2ppm which was fine, but raised it more when I also started giving some zinc.

Zinc was just 0.3 in my feed. That sounds far ahead of Jacks, which is known to be good. Tap generally provides about half our zinc needs, so I wonder if the jacks for RO might contain more.
I have Canna's Trace Mix here. It's used between 1 and 2ml per liter, and at 1ml it provides 3ppm of zinc. That's masses more zinc. I'm using it at just a 10% dose, to double my zinc while keeping it real. Zinc problems had been seen in my grows sometimes, and there is some confusion online regarding some pics being used for both Zn and Mg deficiency examples. I had some very bold stripes that avoided the leaf edges and veins like they were drawn on. Mg couldn't fix it, but they are now absent.
This is a Mg pic, but I don't belive it is. It's just to bold.

Oh yes.. new forum.. hows this work

It worked well (bit big though. Maybe I'm still learning)