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Everybody a breeder ?

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pip313

Member
Yea this thread is about bs "breeders" passing crap but its still frustrating to buy from a BREEDER and get nothing of worth at a high cost. Then to be told that its normal to go through bulk amounts of seeds for a 5% plant as you call it but no bulk offers are not normally an option only many small overpriced retail packs. If I buy 10x as many as a retail pack i should save a few bucks. I mean 1 customer buying 10 customers worth has to be appreciated by seed sellers right?

Also it seems a lot of this thread is discussing if breeders are worth the markup or if your better off making your own f1's and considering those as keepers also as a 5 or 10 pack of seeds does not represent all possible gene combos that that strain has to offer and buying many packs is cost prohibitive.
 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
Yea this thread is about bs "breeders" passing crap but its still frustrating to buy from a BREEDER and get nothing of worth at a high cost. Then to be told that its normal to go through bulk amounts of seeds for a 5% plant as you call it but no bulk offers are not normally an option only many small overpriced retail packs. If I buy 10x as many as a retail pack i should save a few bucks. I mean 1 customer buying 10 customers worth has to be appreciated by seed sellers right?

if you bought a pack of seeds and didn't find a single plant worth growing again it is either one of two things... either your environment wasn't adequate for the variety you were growing so the phenotypes didn't get the triggers necessary to express their desirable qualities (remember Genome + Environment= Phenotype) or you were growing a strain with a very low average quality... which is a sign of poor quality and a case where one must buy a lot of seeds to find a keeper but also those type of strains should be really affordable $2-$3 a seed



I think what part of the problem is, that, most breeders rarely even advertise the actual progeny of their crosses most of the time it is just the mother used... then when they do... they don't say how many seeds they grew to find that pheno or how often it showed itself among the population (could be one in hundreds)... so the customer is sold on the idea that they can buy a pack of the seeds and find that exact same pheno... which may not happen if a rare pheno is used in the marketing

one way to be aware of what you are buying is by looking for several grow logs on the strain by independent growers... ask them questions then decide if desirable plants show up often enough to justify spending the money on the seeds... it's not that hard to do

but most strains (that I am interested in anyways) have a good enough average quality where I can find a really really good keeper plant for my and others gardens from one pack or less...

for instance BOG's SOUr Bubble was awesome for a ratio of keepers... I found many excellent plants in Rez's Chemdog Double D... my own strains The China Syndrome and Sour Purple too show very high quality among the average individuals...

which means, from those strains (and others too) I can find great keeper plants from 5 seeds i.e. 2-3 females... but if I want to breed those lines more I will pop no less than fifty... because while the average plant found in the line may very well be an awesome plant... the BEST one in the whole family is undoubtedly going to be better... and is why when breeding we want to use the best one and not the average...



someone who is just growing... or making their own crosses for fun, needn't be worried about having the BEST phenotype from a specific line, just find ones you like...

now, If it is in your mind to have the absolute best phenotype available for any given strain then... guess what... YES you should invest in 50-100 seeds... that is the only way to have the odds slightly in your favor.




it is 100% impossible for every seedling to be equal to the best... or even be the same phenotype so no matter what there will always be another phenotype that may be better... So, unless the breeder markets only the Average phenotype among a population , no matter what they may say, they cannot guarantee that you'll find a certain phenotype without popping a lot of beans... the best they could do is give you a ratio... 1/3, 1/4, 1/10

if they only market the average phenotype (which in some strains is still really awesome) then they can say... pop 10 seeds and you'll find it... cuz you are only hunting for the average... but there will still be one that are better than average

ya dig?
 

pip313

Member
None of my other strains had a problem right next to them. The plants were the typical mutants you can expect when the dj short male is used. It seems to be known that his plants are deformed. I wish I knew that then, everything I read about blueberry was good. Damn high times.

Live and learn I guess but I had heard the name of that breeder so many times that I never hesitated to place a order for whats a lot of money for me.
 

pip313

Member
The question remains if you want the best of the best should you buy a pack then open pollenate and grow out a couple hundred f1's?

If yes then pollen chuckers are ok by me as long as they say thats what they are and they sell cheap so you can buy the numbers you would need at a reasonable price.
 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
None of my other strains had a problem right next to them.
not for nothing, but that doesn't really matter...

Im one unsatisfied customer of dj short. $350 into 20 seeds and i got nothing but mutants. He has a special blueberry male. Yea its special it passes mutant and hermie genes, research for yourself im not the only pissed customer. From experience grape crush and true blueberry are total 100% complete garbage. Horrible horrible stuff.
The plants were the typical mutants you can expect when the dj short male is used. It seems to be known that his plants are deformed. I wish I knew that then, everything I read about blueberry was good. Damn high times.

yeah, you can't trust high times that's for sure!


and yes, DJ's work is well known to have mutants, runts, low yields, slow veg and nutrient sensitivities all at a high price... but... the look, smell, taste and effects of good mother plants make it all worth it when you take cuttings and flower each individual.


Question... did you grow all the female seedling all the way through harvest... or did you cull the mutants and the runts right away?

The question remains if you want the best of the best should you buy a pack then open pollenate and grow out a couple hundred f1's?

well that would make a couple hundred F2s... if you pollinate the same variety...


but no,
that won't give you the best of the best... that would give you best of the average... as you see... you will be unlikely to find the best breeding female from a single pack (of any seeds) and you definitely won't find the best of the best male and female from a single pack... IMPOSSIBLE... so what that would accomplish is stretching the genome out based on AVERAGE individuals not the BEST (and that is the issue with pollen chuckers, most often than not they are not using exemplary individuals but instead they use the average individual, cause most of the time that is all that is to be found within small populations)... though... you could then run a couple hundred F2s and do a half sibling pollination by removing half of the females that are less impressive... thereby effectively breeding the F2 5%ers... if you did that again maybe a couple times more... you just may see higher quality individuals appear when you grow out 40 plus seeds and find those 5% phenotypes..
but...
if you Really... Really want the best of the best... you need to save $500-$800 and buy 50 seeds or more of the best strain you can find... to save some time, instead of making F2s and 3s first...
find the best female(s) cull the other half of the females and pollinate them with all the males... this insures that you mate between the 5%er male and the 5%er female... that way you have your best 5% female of the best strain and thousands of seeds to look through to find more and or better females and make more selections and seeds for the future.


(FYI:Bodhi seeds has one of the best price vs quality I know of, you could have gotten 50 seeds of one strain for the same price you spent on two different Dj strains... found a 5% female and started breeding it)...


:tiphat:
 

bombadil.360

Andinismo Hierbatero
the idea behind finding a 'keeper' is to take cuttings from this 'keeper' and flower them for stash production, not to breed it.

you can breed with it, sure, but it is not a guarantee that its offspring will carry on the characteristics of said 'keeper'.

I agree with Pip, if you need to pop 100 seeds to find 5 keepers, seed providers should sell 100 seed packs at a very reasonable price, no more than 150 usd if you were to ask me.

just the risk involved of popping those 100 seeds to look for 5 potential keepers, justifies a low tag price.

peace
 

rhinoman 1

Active member
in an attempt to drag this thread somewhat back on topic:

hey tom i have a question for you. in lieu of working with large plant numbers, due to space limitations, what do you think about this strategy:

1. using a topcross (in my case im using Paco's Lashkar Gah which I really like) against several good cuts which have the maximum number of "good" traits i'm looking for.

2. growing out the offspring from each of those in batches of 20-30, selecting heavily for a SMALL number of traits in each line, based on what each line needs most. the emphasis at the beginning is on selecting for "vigor" and "hardiness" type traits. i.e. mold resistance, fast rooting, insect resistance, strong stems/roots, etc.

3. working each "sub line" a generation or two to fix in certain traits and reduce variation

4. then gradually crossing each sub line together and merging it all together into one main line.

what immediately jumps out at you as pros/cons to this strategy? the goal is to be able to select heavily for certain traits, even though working with small numbers, and to then combine the lines together so that maximum genetic diversity will be preserved at all stages and in the end product.

thanks for all thoughts or opinions :tiphat:
Hey Frito Bandito, Nice breakdown. I think that works very well.:biggrin:
 

rhinoman 1

Active member
picture.php

and all the time i thought breeding was adapting your fav. strain to your environment. What was i thinking? Looks like back to the drawing board.
 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
View Image
and all the time i thought breeding was adapting your fav. strain to your environment. What was i thinking? Looks like back to the drawing board.

lol... no you are right man (to an extent)... just out of context... you see, we are talking about seeds bred for retail market not ones bred for your microclimate... so, how would having a strain bred specifically for your environment going to help the billions of people that don't live where you do or have your exact setup?

it definitely couldn't hurt using larger numbers and only selecting the higher quality and more well adapted individuals to use for each successive generations, to accomplish your goals, could it? (I mean expect for where the law is concerned, maybe, depending of where you live)

keep doing what your doing... but don't be afraid to do something else too.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
the validity of the argument pip313 is making is why I put the value of breeding onto the consumer. The results the seed BUYERS care about matters more then the tech breeders care about, not because the science doesn't matter but because the consumer perception matters MORE. That is one of the basic tenants of marketing.

I have worked in the IT field and have for decades and I deal with PHd decision makers all day long (most common education among my clientele as well as in my family). I don't sell technology based on HOW it works I sell it based on the BENEFIT it offers. Most decision makers buy off promised benefit even people with doctorates.

Here is a common marketing example using a drill. Do people by a drill because they want a drill? or do they buy it because they need to make a hole?

This is were the thread has diverged and need to the back on track if it is to have any value in building a better understanding between breeder offerings and the purchasing consumer. This has been why i was asking for comparative values all this time, it is IMPORTANT in marketing to illustrate value in terms the consumer readily understands.

All of that being said, I would love to hear from various seed vendors on the difference between the ratio they use to find breeding stock versus the difference in ratio for finding keeper stock.

The science being put into the thread has apparently shot the breeders using it in the foot because now people think they need to buy 1000 seeds to find keepers. Great job guys!

See how important customer perceptions are?

:thank you:
 
The science being put into the thread has apparently shot the breeders using it in the foot because now people think they need to buy 1000 seeds to find keepers. Great job guys!

that just shows the ignorance of the likes of yourself.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
that just shows the ignorance of the likes of yourself.

Im just going by the observations of Tom.Bombodil and PIP313 in the posts right before mine. This does not show my ignorance it illustrates your capacity for reading comprehension.

I never said you needed that many beans to succeed at growing or breeding. On the contrary.

here is some hack genes from Rez

picture.php
picture.php
 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
what he is saying is... that if someone is trying to BREED... that in order to advance the variety and not digress the strain into something less desirable than the F1, or parent strains... one must only be using the very very best individuals from that given family line (which typically show themselves at a 5% rate) and not the average (though the average still may be very good and desirable), if the average individual is used... how would the strain have any chance at becoming anything above average?


It's not just talk...


3 purple kush mix and 1 ken father x alpha diesel

 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
that just shows the ignorance of the likes of yourself.

yea you didn't get what he was saying...

though... people are getting the misunderstanding that they need to pop 50 beans to find a plant worth growing which is not true

with a good strain you can find a nice plant worth growing (compared to the average available clones) from a ten pack or less... but not all strains are the average plants of that quality... so indeed with some strains one may need to grow 30-40 seeds to find a winner (but it still may not be the best)...


also someone has to get lucky I mean out of 100 packs some people have to end up with the five packs that contain the best examples the strain has to offer... and THOSE plants are what should be used for breeding... so if ones intent is to breed for the market they should be using the most exceptional males and females the line has to offer not the average males and females the line has to offer... they should also work their lines some too... but people want F1s and if every strain was worked thoroughly then there would be a lot lot less strains.
 
Im just going by the observations of Tom.Bombodil and PIP313 in the posts right before mine. This does not show my ignorance it illustrates your capacity for reading comprehension.

I never said you needed that many beans to succeed at growing or breeding. On the contrary.

View Image

So you didn't go through shit and make your own observations? you don't understand how to utilise the math in your favour? you wanna talk about ignorance, shit go ask rez what he made off marketing... (bx bx Bx) most buyers don't care shit for the plant they want a product to grow and sell... hence clones are ruling the day.....


This is were the thread has diverged and need to the back on track if it is to have any value in building a better understanding between breeder offerings and the purchasing consumer. This has been why i was asking for comparative values all this time, it is IMPORTANT in marketing to illustrate value in terms the consumer readily understands.
oh now you want it back on track? after all your own waffle.... jesus wept, the purchaser gets told facts they choose to ignore them!!

This does not show my ignorance it illustrates your capacity for reading comprehension.


oh I see you can give it out but start to cry the minute someone slings it your way?

 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
nice seed collection... but fuk u gotta buy 5-10 or more packs to find a keeper??? if that be the case, someone ain't doing their job...

no, lol, there should be tons of really really nice plants in there... my goal is to find the best breeding females and MALES (mostly) each line has to offer for the traits I wish them to pass on
 

Easy7

Active member
If it's an F1, your going to need a few packs to find the best. Honestly though, for the home hack, a pack can be good enough. I'd rather go though a pack of more stains, then go through more plants of the hack. Most breeders are hacks anyways. Not everyone can have a thousand plants? Lol
 
yea you didn't get what he was saying...

pretty sure I did,

The science being put into the thread has apparently shot the breeders using it in the foot because now people think they need to buy 1000 seeds to find keepers. Great job guys!

If he and others are ignorant to think this and do not understand how to get round the odds.. they are ignorant..... he assumes everyone is as thick and ignorant as himself.
 
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