Everybody a breeder ?

[bombadil.360]

Yeah because it's working well there's elites all over the show isn't there? btw how did you evaluate that male? but by all means go for it.. not sure quite how that would work though.. presume from the 20 bags you're just inbreeding so why you'd just use 1:1 there I don't know... I mean I could take a shit and hope that gold drops out, it's unlikely but there ya go! I'd just sooner pay for some gold that I know is gold than go searching and hoping..


not at all, like mofeta put it's not where you find the gold... that said being able to replicate that gold is something many of you fail to be grasping imo....

since cannabis is illegal, the environment to play around looking for special specimens in a traditional selective breeding way is pretty limited.

this is mainly the reason why most of the commercial seed lines come from a time where regulations where less lax; lets take skunk No.1 as an example; that was selected out of tons of plants at a time when it was easier to have large grows, same goes for haze etc...

it's not because the potential to find gems out of a bunch of bagseeds is not there, rather, it is because of the potential of getting caught that many of us are discouraged to do so.

personally, I've found parents out of small numbers, 50 or so, in a backyard, said parents produced really good consistent offspring. did not keep at it because of security issues, and just kept on planting only for head stash.

to replicate 'gold', as you put it, all it takes is to use the same parents to produce seed, not much else.

again, the issue lies in keeping those parents safe, which is pretty complicated, considering safety and all.

those few who have all the conditions needed to keep parental stock for long periods of time, do so and have offered us their seeds, Tom included, before the whole high-tech issue was even a thing to consider.

high-tech itself won't produce so-called elites, it can only help us understand at a deeper level what makes an elite an elite, and provide certain pointers for future selections, with trial and error nonetheless, and risks to security as well.

having said that, if and when cannabis becomes free of its current unreasonable status, at such time, we can surely start to see many great selections becoming available, with and without the help of cutting edge technologies.

peace

 

[stickshift]

since cannabis is illegal, the environment to play around looking for special specimens in a traditional selective breeding way is pretty limited.

Indeed it is, so given that and the time scale for breeding lines without the likes of selfing, seems idiotic doesn't it? we should use ALL known shortcuts...

those few who have all the conditions needed to keep parental stock for long periods of time, do so and have offered us their seeds, Tom included, before the whole high-tech issue was even a thing to consider.

but now it is. and in all of the said seed lots produced by these parents they still are not giving you elites you still have to search, the fact that many more elites have come from random pairings says enough! and then there's inbreds that are likely results of some selfing.....

what would you buy.. someones female seed lot of a clone, or their outcrossing of it, or the clone itself in a form?

having said that, if and when cannabis becomes free of its current unreasonable status, at such time, we can surely start to see many great selections becoming available, with and without the help of cutting edge technologies.

it will be with!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]high-tech itself won't produce so-called elites, it can only help us understand at a deeper level what makes an elite an elite, and provide certain pointers for future selections, with trial and error nonetheless, and risks to security as well.[/FONT]

it will help with the replication of said elite. It will help with markers to select certain plants for certain traits.. just like with poppies...

Four single crosses (VG20 × SGE48, SGE48 × SG35II, VG26 × SG35II, and SG35II × VG20) in opium poppy (Papaver somniferum L.) were analyzed to study the gene actions involved in the inheritance of quantitative traits, namely plant height, branches/plant, capsules/plant, peduncle length, capsule index, stigmatic rays, straw yield/plant, and morphine content. Simple additive, dominance, and epistatic genetic components were found to be significant for inheritance pattern. Dominance effect (h) was higher than additive effect (d). Digenic interaction indicated the prevalence of dominance × dominance (l) followed by additive × dominance (j) type epistasis. The significance of dominance (h) and dominance × dominance (l) indicated duplicate epistasis for all the traits and crosses except SG35II × VG20 for stigmatic rays. Biparental mating followed by recurrent selection involving desired recombinants may be utilized to improve the component traits.

We should always be looking to improve and utilise all we can IMO

 

[mexcurandero420]

Can we fight hunger with modern breeding methods, just ask this Indian farmer

Science today still believe in the first book of Justus von Liebig, although 25% of the farmland is heavenly exhausted.Indonesian rice farmers who survived the tsunami at the end of 2004, were having 9 months later the biggest rice harvest of their life.

If modern breeding methods are so great how come there is today a bigger demand for old wheat varieties like Spelt or Kamut, well i'll give you the answer modern varieties although they give a bigger harvest per acre, the wheat grains of those modern varieties are hardly to digest, that's why coeliac disease is on the rise in the west.

Modern science is not a panacea, but that counts also for modern breeding.Like i said before it is handy to know the books of breeding, but mother nature is far more complex Cannabis incl that we know today.

Keep on growing

 

[YosemiteSam]

You still have to separate science for the sake of science and science for the sake of profit. Monsanto is science for the sake of profit.

To downgrade all science based on this example is to ignore what truly makes all of our lives better than our ancestors...pure science.

 

[xmobotx]

indeed i would hate to see that tired 'feed the world' argument dragged into this

if anything conventional farming is setting future generations up for starvation much the same as the romans farmed N africa into a vast wasteland/desert

i see that happening to day in the grain fields of central to eastern WA ~one day that will all be desert and its because the farmers {or somebody} are too greedy to leave a few damn trees in there

and i say 'or somebody' because its more likely the banksters driving the farmers to pay the loans they had to take to buy seed and machinery

*interesting that india/rice article 'plant less harvest more'

 

[bushweed]

Ironic to think that the marijuana revolution in the US occurred just as the great financial empire was unravelling. In the near future, farmers in third world countries like the US and UK will, I suppose, inevitably go back to more traditional/primitive/proven selection methods.

Then we really might start seeing those elites being produced in greater numbers. Fuck knows where the Chinese and Indians will take the nascent field of cannabis selection science...

 

[frito bandito]

in an attempt to drag this thread somewhat back on topic:

hey tom i have a question for you. in lieu of working with large plant numbers, due to space limitations, what do you think about this strategy:

1. using a topcross (in my case im using Paco's Lashkar Gah which I really like) against several good cuts which have the maximum number of "good" traits i'm looking for.

2. growing out the offspring from each of those in batches of 20-30, selecting heavily for a SMALL number of traits in each line, based on what each line needs most. the emphasis at the beginning is on selecting for "vigor" and "hardiness" type traits. i.e. mold resistance, fast rooting, insect resistance, strong stems/roots, etc.

3. working each "sub line" a generation or two to fix in certain traits and reduce variation

4. then gradually crossing each sub line together and merging it all together into one main line.

what immediately jumps out at you as pros/cons to this strategy? the goal is to be able to select heavily for certain traits, even though working with small numbers, and to then combine the lines together so that maximum genetic diversity will be preserved at all stages and in the end product.

thanks for all thoughts or opinions

 

[xmobotx]

i like to hope that the scientific approach is more from the perspective of a 'steward of the land' than that of Dr frankenstein

and that the 'collapse' is more about leveling the play field

 

[frito bandito]

heres some pics of my project:

first pic from left to right:

* Lashkar Gah x Bubblegum. some stray pollen must have created this because i did not specifically pollinate the BG. i ended up with 2-3 seeds of this and this is the first one i flowered. i call it "hairy" because its super hairy i.e. good insect resistance. gonna outcross this one and see about bringing that trait to other lines.

* two LG x (NHxSSH) phenos. another deal with stray pollination i think. i ended up with 10-15 seeds and just sprouted a few to see how they turned out. one of these phenos is really nice IMO. the mom was a 14-16+ weeker with big foxtailed nugs. the LG brought down flowering time considerably and added lots of density, stronger stems and roots.

other two pics:

LG x Blue Dream S1. im very happy how this one turned out. there is some variation but overall lots of uniformity in the F1. from the first 15 seeds i sprouted, i ended up with these two keepers. i planted 20 more which are in veg now and will be ready for cloning soon.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Can we fight hunger with modern breeding methods,

Why don't you ask Norman Borlaug if we can fight hunger with modern breeding methods?

just ask this Indian farmer

That's a nice link there, although they didn't breed anything.

Thank goodness the Cornell professor Norman Uphoff was around to tell them about the SRI methodology they used to achieve those yields.


btw- coeliac disease is not on the rise because of modern breeding methods, it's an autoimmune disease, we're getting better at screening for it.

 

[frito bandito]

Lashkar Gah x Agent Orange. i already have three females and one male from this cross which passed my first tests and were selected for best and fastest rooting in the cloner. those four are vegging out and will go in flower soon for evaluation. i then sprouted another 30 or so which you see here. this particular pic is a few weeks old and i have already taken cuts from these and put them in the cloner a few days ago.

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

Ironic to think that the marijuana revolution in the US occurred just as the great financial empire was unravelling. In the near future, farmers in third world countries like the US and UK will, I suppose, inevitably go back to more traditional/primitive/proven selection methods.
..

It was the same with alcohol prohibition. Alcohol was very much illegal until the great depression. Quite a few people made big money bootlegging during this period which finally gave way to legalization as the system collapsed. It's funny how the system can so quickly change its tune as they scramble for new sources of revenue.

 

[festivus]

73 pages later...

Everyone's a breeder that makes seeds. The question should be "who are the good breeders?" If a vendor is releasing shit genetics, out the mofo's right here! Name names, so peeps know who to avoid.

There's been an explosion of new seed vendors so do your homework. Do they test prior to release? Are their crosses hermi prone because they depend too much on s1's? Do they back their gear when there's an issue? Trust Seedbay and SeedBotique because of the info you can find here on ICM.

Check shit out, and it ain't too hard to see who's in the game for the $$ vs. those in it for the love.

 

[PhenoMenal]

Everyone's a breeder that makes seeds. The question should be "who are the good breeders?" If a vendor is releasing shit genetics, out the mofo's right here! Name names, so peeps know who to avoid.

I'd give my shit a miss

 

[offthehook]

Off topic but on your request Festivus, eheh.

Integracy and customer service on behalf of the breeder are indeed to decide what keeps me coming back ...or else, never again!

Iranian auto flower by Dr. Greenthumb for instance... Was NOT an auto flower AT ALL, was a complete wasted 245 euris for 22 seeds, NO back funding.

That guy just lost a paying customer and will be bad mouthed by me whenever I get an opportunity to do so. ^^

His firm goes by the name Gen Tec btw. Rite, well, Gen Tec my ass, pff

If they can't even get their names right... pfff, what do I need to say more?

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity once more Festivus! > Much better now

 

[Raco]

73 pages later...

highly xplosive thread

keep it civil amigos

X18 x Uzbeki -F2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Igb5Yors4

 

[Jbomber79]

woowzers that looks spanktastic man what cross is that?

 

[CHillTowneGenes]

It was the same with alcohol prohibition. Alcohol was very much illegal until the great depression. Quite a few people made big money bootlegging during this period which finally gave way to legalization as the system collapsed. It's funny how the system can so quickly change its tune as they scramble for new sources of revenue.

I personally don't see the humor, rather sad that they put people, and families through such unjustifiable nonsense. you'd think that with things being in the current condition they are that they would be more inclined to save than waste but... taxes seem to work on everything that's bad for the people, why not something good for people?? ill never understand it...

 

[pip313]

I dont like how people (breeders) say it takes 40 or more seeds to find a keeper and thats the way it is yet they dont offer any kind of bulk offer for 40 to 100 seeds. I mean if I have to buy bulk for a real winner why do I have to pay retail for small quantity? 6 or 7 hundred us dollars for a hundred seeds would be reasonable imo for buyer and seller. 100 seeds 90 germinate 45 females to search for the winner.

Im one unsatisfied customer of dj short. $350 into 20 seeds and i got nothing but mutants. He has a special blueberry male. Yea its special it passes mutant and hermie genes, research for yourself im not the only pissed customer. From experience grape crush and true blueberry are total 100% complete garbage. Horrible horrible stuff.

 

[Infinitesimal]

I dont like how people (breeders) say it takes 40 or more seeds to find a keeper and thats he way it is yet they dont offer any kind of bulk offer for 40 to 100 seeds. I mean ifI have to buy bulk for a real winner why do I have to pay retail for small quantity?

Im one unsatisfied customer of dj short. $350 into seeds and i got nothing but mutants. He has a special blueberry male. Yea its special it passes mutant and hermie genes, research for yourself im not the only pissed customer. From experience grape crush and true blueberry are total 100% complete garbage. Horrible horrible stuff.

Remember, we are talking about breeding here, not popping beans to find a keeper mother plant to grow for personal/commercial/medicinal use

it does not mean that one must buy forty seeds to find a single plant that they like and want to keep...

if the quality of the average individual from a given strain is high... then you needn't grow out 40 to find one you like to grow and want to keep...that is NOT what he is saying...

what he is saying is... that if someone is trying to BREED... that in order to advance the variety and not digress the strain into something less desirable than the F1, or parent strains... one must only be using the very very best individuals from that given family line (which typically show themselves at a 5% rate) and not the average (though the average still may be very good and desirable), if the average individual is used... how would the strain have any chance at becoming anything above average?

and... someone could get lucky and find that 1/40 female from just 5 seeds... odds are against it but I mean it happens cause that 1/40 has to be found among a pack...

for those interested in breeding...
it seems many things are miscomprehended or are misconstrued by some of those reading Tom's and others posts... I will do my best to translate the gist of things into my Native tongue it's called Layman


hypothetical situation​

so lets say we find the 5%er female from a single pack and we want to breed with it... why not, it is easy to see that it is an amazing rare expression, so lets do it right? Should we just pop a pack of some seeds... pick a male, (based on what... I couldn't tell ya without a test cross), chuck pollen on to this super duper sexy keeper lady, and... whammy new killer strain?



well, lets look a little deeper... we have gotten crazy lucky and found a female of the top 5% from a single pack...



now, chances are that we are not likely to replicate this luck, and, by some magical happenstance find that the male selected from a single pack is of the top 5% among the population also... and do we want to cross just an average or maybe even sub average male to our new wonder plant? O'course not... otherwise we are just watering down something awesome with something less than, thereby lowering the average quality of the population and likely the peak quality as well...


So what do we do???


well what we need to try and do is mate the 5% female with a 5% male...


how can we do this?


well without spending 20 years isolating, test crossing each male and growing out each of their progeny to determine which one is that 5%er... we could do a couple things... either way we need to start 40 plus seeds (the more the better) which would likely leave us with around 20 males, of which, odds are that at least one of them is the 5% male we want.

the first... and easier way would be to... take our known 5% female and do an open pollination with all 20 males in order to guarantee that the one 5% male dusts our lady, thereby insuring that around 1/20 seeds is a pairing between the two 5%ers... then rinse and repeat the same process for the next generation...

the other way would be to, first start with even more than 40 seeds... then while doing the open pollination keep an eye on the males and make an educated guess as to which ones are the most desirable (remember though, out of 20 males odds are only one is the 5%er... so this is risky)... after selecting a half dozen or so males we think may be the ONE... we take clones of those selected males into isolation and breed all of them to clones of the same mother plants... then grow and compare their progeny to determine which one passes on the desirable traits at what frequency and or if our educated guesses were correct or not and cull any male that proves not to be one of the 5%... with this technique (I think) it IS POSSIBLE to do a monogamous mating (one male x one female) using only the top 5% of the population... but only if we; start with a strain that has a really high average value, have a really good eye for male selection and beat the odds by getting lucky when choosing our 6 males from the population...

and there in lies the risk... it is possible that none of the six males chosen for testing are the one 5%er (the one among a twenty male population, two among a forty male population etc etc...) and all those seeds we made during the test crosses must be scrapped and we must start another large batch of seeds to start the process all over again...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this helps some people understand the difference between how many seeds you need to find a "keeper plant" and how many you need to find a "breeder plant"

and I also hope this helps those of you who are designing your own breeding plan to understand the importance of numbers/test crossing... I hope it gives you something to think about as well as illustrate what should be done and why...

you can still find the 5% females from small populations if you get lucky and beat the odds... but even with test crossing it is near impossible to guess which male is the best (outside of dumb luck), so your chances of finding the right male from a restricted population is Infinitesimally small

Peace,
Infi