Effects of Phosphoric Acid on MicroFlora?

[Scrogerman]

Hi there IC Heads.
Straight to the point, ive read that commercial farmers are using phosphoric acid to correct PH of liquid solutions in a soil enviroment. Ive also read that it can be used as a sterilising agent, but i would of thought in much larger amounts than a PH correction. so this leads me to the primary question. Can we use any form of Phosphoric(there are several)Acid to lower PH of a liquid solution safely in a soil enviroment(for the water or nutrient solutions im talking about). you see i regularly see people using phosphoric for liquid solutions PH adjustment in a soil enviroment but the rules of organic MJ growing for the most part are its damaging to the micro flora, but the way i see things is, i & other users of phosphoric acid to lower ph of liquid solutions in soil, use it in such a small amout that the damaging effects on the microflora are none existent. Is this true?. Ive checked several papers on this but none of them clarify this point. Also, id like to add that ive seen & read commercial farmers that grow several dfifferent species of plant are also using Phosphoric acid with Humic acid to very good effect, so how is this detrimental to soil microflora. The sheer amount of papers on the Net on this subject is ridiculous, so id appreciate any IC members in the know, preferably people who know for a fact what they are talking about, im sure this post will clarify & help many people on IC. Why do we (MJ growers) say dont use it in a in your liquid solutions for changing ph, when in a soil enviroment, yet commercial farmers are using it with humic acid to better effect.?
Something id like clarified as we dont use the stuff to sterilise, we want to use a minimal dose to lower PH-not sterilse', which should not bother microflora at all!
Any thoughts from you scientists!
Remember i said a couple of drops per Gal, no amount to sterilise! & if you do know the figures or amounts that would be safe to use with a living soil please comment! if there is a safe amount at all, thats what im asking????

You know i feel like im kicking a fkin Hornets nest here, waiting to get stung, lol!

 

[grapeman]

Hi there IC Heads.
Straight to the point, ive read that commercial farmers are using phosphoric acid to correct PH of liquid solutions in a soil enviroment. Ive also read that it can be used as a sterilising agent, but i would of thought in much larger amounts than a PH correction. so this leads me to the primary question. Can we use any form of Phosphoric(there are several)Acid to lower PH of a liquid solution safely in a soil enviroment(for the water or nutrient solutions im talking about). you see i regularly see people using phosphoric for liquid solutions PH adjustment in a soil enviroment but the rules of organic MJ growing for the most part are its damaging to the micro flora, but the way i see things is, i & other users of phosphoric acid to lower ph of liquid solutions in soil, use it in such a small amout that the damaging effects on the microflora are none existent. Is this true?. Ive checked several papers on this but none of them clarify this point. Also, id like to add that ive seen & read commercial farmers that grow several dfifferent species of plant are also using Phosphoric acid with Humic acid to very good effect, so how is this detrimental to soil microflora. The sheer amount of papers on the Net on this subject is ridiculous, so id appreciate any IC members in the know, preferably people who know for a fact what they are talking about, im sure this post will clarify & help many people on IC. Why do we (MJ growers) say dont use it in a in your liquid solutions for changing ph, when in a soil enviroment, yet commercial farmers are using it with humic acid to better effect.?
Something id like clarified as we dont use the stuff to sterilise, we want to use a minimal dose to lower PH-not sterilse', which should not bother microflora at all!
Any thoughts from you scientists!
Remember i said a couple of drops per Gal, no amount to sterilise! & if you do know the figures or amounts that would be safe to use with a living soil please comment! if there is a safe amount at all, thats what im asking????

You know i feel like im kicking a fkin Hornets nest here, waiting to get stung, lol!

I am not an expert like CTGuy or MM on the life cycles of benes, but I tend to agree with you that a few drops of phos acid don't hurt anything. I hand water my plants and make a 4.5 gal bucket of fish food, tea, water or whatever, I tend to always ph the water to @ 6.3. (even though I'm told it's not necessary). This takes about 1 ml of phos acid in 5 gal of mix. i just can't see how that would be enough to damage the benes. Maybe someone more knowledgeable then me will weigh in.

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Bro Thanks for the reply,
Im using alot less than a ml in 5 litres too, around 1/8ml, maybe a little less but its nothing, like 6 drops per 5 litres of water,(EDIT- oh 1 ml to 5 Gals, around a ml to 50 litres id be adding. & like ive said im seeing commercial farmers using it along side Humic Acid, so why would they(Farmers) be using it if its detrimental. I struggle to see how such a small amount is damaging to Microflora, but i dont know the answer to this question, tis why i started the thread. Your a commercial Grape farmer are you bro?Cheers mate!
btw, if you know experts in this field could you ask them to maybe comment on this thread please bro, Nice one!

 

[VerdantGreen]

why wouldnt you use citric instead scroger? much cheeper and also it is what canna use in their organic pH down. phosphoric acid is used as an antibacterial in dentistry, albeit at higher concentrations im sure, but why use it when there is a known safe cheep alternative which has other good side effects too imo

VG

 

[Scrogerman]

I read the first line bro, you are one of the very few talented growers on the whole of IC imo & i hope you take that as its meant in truth bro!
Why not use it is my question, ive ran out of Citric(lol) but im seeing commercial farmers using Phos & Humic together with great effect so why are we told not to use it, was the point of my question, not argument at all bro! as a PH adjustment NOT a sterilising agent!

 

[grapeman]

Hey Bro Thanks for the reply,
Im using alot less than a ml in 5 litres too, around 1/8ml, maybe a little less but its nothing, like 6 drops per 5 litres of water,(EDIT- oh 1 ml to 5 Gals, around a ml to 50 litres id be adding. & like ive said im seeing commercial farmers using it along side Humic Acid, so why would they(Farmers) be using it if its detrimental. I struggle to see how such a small amount is damaging to Microflora, but i dont know the answer to this question, tis why i started the thread. Your a commercial Grape farmer are you bro?Cheers mate!
btw, if you know experts in this field could you ask them to maybe comment on this thread please bro, Nice one!

I am a commercial grower of other crops and I do use phos acid with good results. For the last 20 years of so I've used way less phos acid through the drip irrigation and used foliar phosphites instead. I still would like to know at what point the phos acid becomes toxic to the benes.

I like you, have a phos acid on hand (1 gal of 52% food grade) and would just like to use it up without making a change. I asked Microbeman to comment. Don't know if he will.

 

[Microbeman]

3% phosphoric acid puts microbes into a dormant state. This is the amount added to fish hydrolysate to stabalize it for storage. This amount does not kill 'all' of the microbes but it must be thoroughly diluted before adding to soil without doing damage. So, when you use lesser amounts, you are likely not doing a great deal of damage microbially. As for doing something because commercial farmers do it....well they have been doing stupid things for years.....unless you were referring to commercial organics? What are the good results? and why are they using it?

I myself would only use it for putting microbes to sleep. I'm not into the pH manipulation thing but I don't see that minor amounts are worse than anything else which manipulates pH. (bacteria = towards alkaline: fungi = towards acidic)

 

[grapeman]

3% phosphoric acid puts microbes into a dormant state. This is the amount added to fish hydrolysate to stabalize it for storage. This amount does not kill 'all' of the microbes but it must be thoroughly diluted before adding to soil without doing damage. So, when you use lesser amounts, you are likely not doing a great deal of damage microbially. As for doing something because commercial farmers do it....well they have been doing stupid things for years.....unless you were referring to commercial organics? What are the good results? and why are they using it?

I myself would only use it for putting microbes to sleep. I'm not into the pH manipulation thing but I don't see that minor amounts are worse than anything else which manipulates pH. (bacteria = towards alkaline: fungi = towards acidic)

TY MM. so if I am using 1ml of phos acid for ph adjustment I am well below the 3% threshold. Also, I see there you mention fish hydrolysate. So if I use that, I am also below the 3% since I would only be using about 1 tablespoon/gal when watering.

When my phos acid is all gone (in about 7 years) I'll switch to something else. LOL

 

[Scrogerman]

Wow, Thanks alot Grapeman & Microman,
You have both confirmed what i thought all along. i think!.
Heres one of the pieces i was reading, it involves mexican Avacardo Seedlings, where the farmers were using Phosphoric Acid & Humic acid with very good effect. http://www.avocadosource.com/WAC5/Papers/WAC5_p395.pdf
Several paragraphs down the page is the interesting bit, not so much the first couple! it wont let me highlight n copy.
I also found out that Citric acid is an Antimicrobial agent, dont sound too good for soil mj growers, but again i would of thought that the amounts that we use in MJ growing are so small & diluted that it is probably harmless to microflora also.
So when i dilute 1ml to 50,000mls(50 litres) of water, its a very safe amount to use?
Ive been using Phosphoric Acid 81%(H3PO4), to adjust my PH, its such a small amount, really diluted i dont think this will set the microflora into dormancy, its knowhere near the 3% required for dormancy, more like 0.001% solution(something so small), so am i fine to be using this stuff? Thanks again guys for your replys.
BTW, Did you know that Bone contains amounts of phosphoric acid? is that right microman?

Also, whats the best PH? or the best balance of PH for both Bacteria & Fungi- is it Neutral as rain water is supposed to be?, it is by me btw(PH-7.0)?? I never knew one preffered an acid enviroment & the other an alkaline, interesting stuff.

 

[VerdantGreen]

.....

I myself would only use it for putting microbes to sleep. I'm not into the pH manipulation thing but I don't see that minor amounts are worse than anything else which manipulates pH. (bacteria = towards alkaline: fungi = towards acidic)

really Mm? i would have thought something like citric acid, which is a natural root exudate and a low molecular weight organic acid, would be better than most.

for instance this link suggests that citric acid has some large benefits in mobilization of organic phosphorous. be interested to know your thoughts on it.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/wxk176161037p352/


scroger, if you look up the preferred pH for hemp, it says 7.5 - but hemp is grown for fibre and pH over 7 makes nitrogen more available, so it is usually plants that are expected to produce lots of leaf/plant material that like a pH over 7. cabbages/brassicas for example.
plants that are expected to produce lots of fruit or flowers generally like a more acidic pH - tomatoes for example, so i would expect cannabis grown for flowers would be similar.

VG

 

[Scrogerman]

Nice One Verd, we know the best range for Mj in soil is 6.3-6.8. Ive recently found out that Citric acid is an Antimicrobial, so again we use the stuff in such a small amount this quality of citric acid doesnt come into play, or it too wouldnt be used to lower PH in solution when soil growing, im looking into this further. Cheers again buddy!
My point of this thread was to find out why we cant use Phosphoric Acid instead of Citric, then i find out that Citric is damaging to microbial life, obviously in larger quantitys though.

Interesting point there too Verd, my friends dont PH. In veg their plants look great but come the end or Harvest time their plants have all sorts of def's and are really shagged, why i wanted to get this PH thing straight in soil growing. I have really Alkaline water, its Soft water (less than 120ppms) but has a PH of over 8.2 atm, its usually 7.9, still a little too Alkaline for my liking! & now its 8.2+ i thought that cant be much good for my purposes!

I was reading a thread by Tom Hill the other day & his tap water was a similar PH to mine & he was adjusting his down from the high 8.2 range to a more suitable PH. cant remember if he mentioned what he was using to drop it though.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i spoke to my water company recently (im in UK) and they add lime to the tapwater because (they said) drinking water should be pH 8-9.

i know i bang on about citric acid but i reckon it has a lot of good side effects on the grow above and beyond lowering pH. i keep finding little bits and pieces like the link above that seem to indicate the same. i bring my tapwater down to somewhere around 6 before watering.

VG

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Grapeman,
have you heard of or ever used Agrizest on Grapes & our beloved MJ, just wondering because i read a few good things about it in the commercial fruit world & wondered if maybe you have tried it? sounded like it may be good for MJ too! quite remarkable feedback from grape growers! More interesting stuff!

 

[Scrogerman]

Maybe you can help me out Verd, im struggling with PH in my soil experiments(Liquid irrigations), while using both Citric ~& Phos to lower PH. im giving 6.5-6.8ph on my water irrigation cycles, but thats in soil, 6 would be too low, wouldnt it, Ok for hydro though bro. My problem is the Canna terra, ive just started using the stuff & im seeing improvements but on the Canna website they say give it at 5.8-6.2 but im sure they are reffering to their own peat based soiless mixes & the soil terra line, they say it can be used for soil too but donr specify a ph range for their product apart from the word "Other", what does that mean? Im wondering if i increase the ph to 6.5 for the feed irrigation am i gonna lock stuff out. Ive been advised to give the terra at 6.3 by other users that use it & grow in soil but on a couple of my plants the margins are turned right in signelling something like K or Mg is getting locked, no Mg def is visible though, just this turning in of the margins, im putting it down to the 6.3 or low PH, any thoughts mate.? Where can i buy cheap Citric from mate, does the chemists like boots sell it, is there a specific one i need? i have been using citric acid BP i dont know if there is a difference? i cant afford the Canna 50% version & the shop is some miles from me! why ive switched to the Phos bro!

 

[grapeman]

Hey Grapeman,
have you heard of or ever used Agrizest on Grapes & our beloved MJ, just wondering because i read a few good things about it in the commercial fruit world & wondered if maybe you have tried it? sounded like it may be good for MJ too! quite remarkable feedback from grape growers! More interesting stuff!

No i have not. I'll look into it and get back to you.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey scroger i sent you a pm

boots/holland and barrett might sell citric acid but i buy mine off ebay. dirt cheep.
5.8 - 6.2 sounds about right to me.

VG

 

[Scrogerman]

Cheers man, so why does all the lit n stuff say 6.3-6.8 for MJ is the best range for soil, not soiless, ok 5.8-6.2 for soiless peatbased mediums. but isnt this low for soil bro?
Thanks mate ill check H&B & also the Net if its just a few quid i should be able to handle that, times are hard bro! Thanks for the PM bro, you are a major help to me right now!

 

[VerdantGreen]

no worries scroger, with the lime for buffering i think you can afford to go lower because the pH will sweep back up again within a few hours.

VG

 

[Scrogerman]

Soo you think 6.2-6.3 should be just fine then man with the Canna terra nute. OK ill stick with it n go for it, shall i stick with the 6.5 for my water irrigation! or 6.3 too?
really appreciate the help man, your the only one on this issue out of a ton of people ive asked for any help, cheers mate! Big thanks to Grapeman & Microman too!

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey scroger i would stick to 6.3 for the water too.