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DIY High Pressure Aeroponic System?

E

eburna

New member
Hey, I was wondering if anyone on this website could help me out. I'm a noob to aeroponics but I really want to build one for my next set up ( after reading this thread and this one) I've searched online, but I can't seem to find a detailed enough explanation about how to construct a true, high pressure aeroponic system. I've heard that nutrimist and others create "dry fog," which is apparently undesirable. Could anyone provide any information about how I could construct a system myself?

Thank you! :tiphat:
 
I

IronLion

eburna said:
Hey, I was wondering if anyone on this website could help me out. I'm a noob to aeroponics but I really want to build one for my next set up ( after reading this thread and this one) I've searched online, but I can't seem to find a detailed enough explanation about how to construct a true, high pressure aeroponic system. I've heard that nutrimist and others that create "dry fog," which is apparently undesirable. Could anyone provide any information about how I could construct a system myself?

Thank you! :tiphat:
Click to expand...

http://youtube.com

a DIY aeroponics system search should get you started.
 
E

eburna

New member
IronLion: I've already searched "diy aeroponics" on many websites. All of the systems I've seen on youtube have been low pressure sprayer hydro systems, not true aeroponics. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. But thanks anyway.

I'm sure someone on this website knows/knows where I can find out how to build a high pressure aero system.:joint:
 
I

IronLion

Couldn't you just up the pump size? Bigger pump = more pressure....
 
E

eburna

New member
IronLion: 50, lol. It's not about getting a larger pump, it's about getting the proper droplet size.

Would I need an accumulator and solenoid valve if I were to use a pump like this?
 
E

eburna

New member
hm, then I'll either have to find a quiet pump (if it's been invented yet), or I'll have to insulate a container for it.
 
E

eburna

New member
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1006716&postcount=49

Podracer suggests that you don't need an accumulator with a variable speed pump, but I also know he was using much longer misting intervals than PetFlora suggests.

https://www.icmag.com/modules/Journal/viewentry.php?journalid=328&page=3

Me2, however, says that the pressure achieved by variable speed pump isn't high enough to reach the desired micron size. He also points out what Pod Racer said in his post, that it takes a time for the pressure to be reached with a variable speed pump, causing non uniform droplet size. But that didn't seem to be as much of a problem for Pod Racer because he was running longer misting intervals anyway.

Has anyone had experience with running either a variable speed pump or a pump with an accumulator?
 
E

eburna

New member
another question, if I were to use an accumulator would something like this suffice? What type of solenoid valve would I use?
 
T

thefatman

First off I must say there HP and TAG growers who will disagree with me. Of course there will be. There are always different opinions in these forums and outside of these forums. There are many people who settle for what they consider good enough and there are others who are not willing to settle for what others consider good enough. There are naturalist soil growers who say HP are and air atomized aero systems are a waste of money and that they systems (to include low pressure aero systems) can not deal with power outages that prevent plants from getting nutrients. Yes there are aero systems that can not deal with power outages, especially low pressure systems with high wattage pumps and no battery back ups.

These are opinions based upon systems I have built like some of those built by a few people on the other forum site and the alternative air atomized systems I built and now use exclusively to replace the, in my opinion substandard problem prone HP systems that are ridiculously expensive to turn into systems as good as the air atomized systems I herein describe.

Probably the best thread on Hp aero systems is not on this forum but is on another forum and it is an older locked thread. The main problem with the other site is that they were systems built that did not adequately dealing with the issues of the residual pressure drain off after the spray cycle and the poorly sized droplet size that is emitted due to the fact that the pressure of the fluid sprayed in the short burst is far from completely within the desired droplet size as they use just one solenoid at the accumulator tank. This means that the fluid left in the long length of tubing between the accumulator tank and the nozzles is sprayed at low pressure as it is not pressurized between spray cycles.

The best way to deal with this is expensive as instead of having one single solenoid at the accumulator tank there needs to be a solenoid at each pod as close to the nozzles as possible. It would be great to have a separate solenoid for each nozzle with the nozzles attached directly to the solenoid but that would be prohibitively expensive as a solenoid that can consistently and for a long term (long life span) handle 60 to 75 psi would mean buying quality solenoids costing at least $50 each.

The commercial Atomix system came close to getting around this issue by using air atomization but the still did not go far enough as they cheaped out and used siphoning to feed the fluid to the nozzles and they also used a recirculating system rather than a drain to waste system. This still means for short spraying cycles a good deal of the atomized droplets are still outside the desired droplet size as a good deal of that time too much of the air is used to start the siphon at each cycle as the siphon tubes drains between each spray cycle. The alternative is that as you do not need high air pressures to atomize droplets to a consistent 50 microns you can use two cheap $10 solenoids for each nozzle with the nozzles attached right to the side of the solenoids. You do not even need a expensive solenoid at the air tanks as you are only using air at 5 to 15 psi which is easily handled by cheap solenoids at each nozzle. Plus the cheap solenoids only have plastic in contact with the corrosive nutrients rather than in contact with the typical brass solenoid used with HP system. Plastic solenoids will not deal with the HP systems high fluid pressures. A stainless solenoids is about $250 plus so most HP growers that use solenoids on accumulator tanks use brass solenoids that often only last 4 to 6 months before needing to be replaced.

With the air atomized system with cheaper plastic solenoid for nutrients and cheap solenoids for air at each nozzle the lines without fluid and air are only about 3/4 inches long. There is also the issue that roots release exudate and that this and salts on the roots not taken in by the tips of the hair roots need to be washed off between spray cycles as this Ph is not controllable otherwise. This is handled by supplying fog to the plants growing chambers at all times. Fog will not supply the needs of fast growing aero plants like a 50 micron atomized spray as a fogger even running constantly will not delivering enough nutrient both in quantity and never in a ideally desired droplet size. The fog does however wash off exudate and salts between each spray fluid thereby always assuring the roots are always supplied the properly sized atomized mist at a proper and consistent Ph. Ideally the nutrients should be supplied by drain to waste as this means your assured that the plants are constantly being fed nutrients that are consistent in composition strength and Ph. They are not recirculated so they are not constantly being altered by the addition of partially used nutrients to the reservoir tank that has the desired nutrients.

The Hp and air atomized systems are so efficient that the amount sprayed and the amount that is wasted to a drain is so small that the cost in nutrients is cheaper than a recirculating reservoir used in low pressure system or other hydro systems where the media is over water and therefore has altered nutrients always draining to the reservoir which means that the reservoir needs to be dumped and refilled regularly/often to assure that a good portion of the time properly balanced nutrient are being fed to the plants. Also there is a fine line between spraying to little and therefore having a too efficient system that dwarfs the plants too much therefore producing plants too small for large yields and spraying too much and getting plants that have too much energy into producing an excessively large roots systems with too few hair roots meaning you are growing leggy plants with internodal spaces that are too big thereby growing substandard airy buds on plants that grow no faster than low pressure aero or soil grown plants. I.e. the plants in the TAG growing systems in the threads in this forum. Can a HP pressure system work well without n accumulator tank. No as the pressure is not consistent enough because the pressure is nowhere near immediately at the desired pressure when the pump si being turned on an off ta each cycle. A accumulator system without the multiple expensive solenoids capable with dealing with high pressures is not great but it is much better then a system without an accumulator tank and not using any solenoids or only one solenoid. Also the preferred diaphragm pumps have a short life span when being constantly turned on and off. So the costs for a good system HP is unrealistic unless it is a small system with just a few nozzles for just a few growing chambers therefore need only a few solenoids.

The air atomized system herein described use a higher priced air compressor ( higher priced then the diaphragm HP pumps) and large air tank but they use cheaper plastic solenoids and have more consistent spraying (droplet size). However for the expansion to a larger system, as is more desirable, the air atomized system is more practical and more adjustable and cheaper to run but the metal nozzles are are more prone to clogging then the plastic HP nozzles as well as being more expensive. But metal nozzles last much, much longer than plastic nozzles (and are available in many more spraying volume sizes).

Having built and used both systems I have chosen to abandoned HP systems and use h just air atomized gravity feed nozzle systems.

Is either system a cheap system to build no. They are however cheap systems to operate and grow plants with shorter internodes as well as quicker then any other systems. However the time to learn what works best is not short and it varies with each different strain and phenotype. Figure several grows with each different strain/type etc. to really dial things in for each different clone strain/types etc. Plus it is more difficult to dial in the spray cycles for tall plants the spray cycles then for SOG Or SCROG grows. The HP and air atomized systems tend to favor growing plants with very short internodes and dwarfed. It is quite easy to grow a 24" tall very short internode sativas with the same clones or seeds that will typically grow a 4 foot plants with most other system with the same number of internodes much further apart.

Neither system is what I would recommend for a person new to mj growing. Nor for a person wanting system that is cheap to build. They are the least forgiving systems one can build unless using a battery back up system and large air tank or a large HP accumulator tanks that use low wattage solenoids and low wattage timers. I use a 92 gallon air tank per each 6 to 12 pod system and a large server UPS system that will supply up to 1950 watts for up to three hours so with my low wattage timers, low wattage solenoids and low wattage foggers I get atomized nutrients and fog for over 6 hours without the regular 120 volt volts being supplied by a utility service. The battery back up system will not supply enough power for the air chillers, their pumps, the lights or the dehumidifier but they will supply atomized nutrients and fogger mist so the plants can survive for the 6 hours until power is restored. So far the longest power outage I have had to deal with has been 34 minutes long.

I have read only one post in this forums threads where a grower used a fogger in conjunction with the HP nozzles and he did not deal with the inherent HP pressure changes and its large percentage of poorly sized droplet problem.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
thefatman rocks!

Excellent info: There is also the issue that roots release exudate and that this and salts on the roots not taken in by the tips of the hair roots need to be washed off between spray cycles as this Ph is not controllable otherwise. (I knew this, but not know how to resolve it. I D2W, so it's just a matter of piping in the fog. How do you cool it?)This is handled by supplying fog to the plants growing chambers at all times. Fog will not supply the needs of fast growing aero plants like a 50 micron atomized spray as a fogger even running constantly will not delivering enough nutrient both in quantity and never in a ideally desired droplet size. The fog does however wash off exudate and salts between each spray fluid thereby always assuring the roots are always supplied the properly sized atomized mist at a proper and consistent pH.

Yes HPA is probably not the best choice for commercial growers. Too many steps- tank, solenoids, pressure valves, gauges... to have issues with, especially for a commercial grower.

Can a HP pressure system work well without n accumulator tank. No as the pressure is not consistent enough because the pressure is nowhere near immediately at the desired pressure when the pump is being turned on and off after each cycle.Small or personal use growers can put together a relatively inexpensive HPA system with/without an accumulator. I have stubbornly chosen the sans accum route.

It took me 3 full grows (and a lot of tips from experienced accum growers) before I was able to dial it in, and finally get fluffy (cotton candy) roots loaded with tiny root hairs, so it can be done, but one must be on top of it to know when/how to adjust the dials so to speak:

I run stiff wall 3/8 OD tubing and very short runs- less than 4ft after my Aquatec 8800 pump. My rez is higher than the mist heads which keeps the nutes from draining back.

Being pragmatic, I think I am pretty damn close, while avoiding a lot of additional expense, let alone the additional expertise needed to control all those extra variables. Hell, it took a lot of discipline to get to where I am, finally, at, BUT forever tweaking and learning how to improve on where I am now.
Would love to know more about the air system.

If you visit my journal put it in perspective. It's a couple years old, and I have learned a lot since then. I have tried to go back and update it with current info.

hth
 
E

eburna

New member
thefatman: thanks for all the great information. :thank you:
I have never heard of an air atomized system. I must admit, I'm still unclear about the details of how to assemble one. :chin:

I'm not going to be running a commercial size grow, so I think the high pressure system may still suit my needs while delivering droplets within the correct range for a true aeroponic system. Would I be able to minimize the effects of residual water in the tubing resulting in uneven droplet size if I simply placed my accumulator and pump 2 feet from the growing chamber?

I was thinking about running a growing chamber with 6 plants in it, covering a 4' by 6' space. I was thinking about using the aquatec 5800 with an accumulator (I can't seem to find one large enough), 12 volt high pressure normally closed solenoid valve, a pressure regulator with gauge, and 6 mister heads. The root chamber would drain to waste and the pump would draw from an external reservoir. :artist:

I'm having difficulty figuring a few things out: first, how would I power a solenoid and connect it to a timer? Would it simply hook up to a timer like the sentinel DRT? Should I use pressure switch to automatically pressurize the accumulator?

Second, is there anyway to control the vertical root growth? I plan on scrogging them at 12 inches, would that effect root stretching? I notice that it seems like no matter how tall the growing chambers all, the roots always hit the bottom, compromising the aeroponic nutrient delivery. I want my root chamber to be at least 2' deep, is that sufficient?

I didn't know that you could have problems with salt build-up in an aeroponic system, but if a fogger can fix that, it seems simple enough. Has anyone ever got nute lockout running an aeroponic system?

Thanks for the help!:tiphat:

PetFlora: Hm, so you didn't need the accumulator in the end, you say? It would really simplify the set-up if I could eliminate the need for the solenoid and accumulator but I wonder why you didn't notice any problems in root development if the supposed reason that aeroponics is superior is that the droplets are small enough for easy uptake and varying sizes would presumably negate that. I really appreciated your journal by the way, it was excellent to learn from. :thank you:

hmm, some food for thought: the reason that people use solenoids with accumulators instead of running pumps alone is because the pump depressurizing causes larger micron droplets. also the reason thefatman runs a system where he controls depressurizing at the nozzle is because the depressurizing of the solenoid controlling the accumulator likewise causes larger micron droplets. So it seems that thefatman has perfected the problem of aeroponic design by putting a valve on the nozzles themselves and eliminating the space for depressurized water to collect. Can minimizing the effect be as simple as placing the pump very close to the nozzles?
 
T

thefatman

Without the use of an accumulator and a solenoid located very close to the spray nozzles you loose quite a bit of the control over just how long your nozzles spray and control over the droplet size for a good length of the spray time. It does eliminate the chances of dwarfing the plant by spraying too little, but it greatly increases the chances of your ending up with unnecessarily long and large roots system thereby requiring much deeper growing chambers to try to prevent roots from accumulating on the floor of your chamber(s). Some people just give up on trying to prevent the roots from laying in water at the bottom of the chambers by just considering the bottom of the growing chamber as being equivalent to making the lower root structure more of a DWC root system.

Without the use of an accumulator and a solenoid located very close to the spray nozzles the droplet and spraying time problems will be especially noticeable when spraying for short time periods like a half a second or a few seconds as your nozzles will continue to spray until most of the pressure is released from the delivery pipe between the solenoid and the spray nozzle. This can take as long as 20 to 40 seconds. This tends to make your grow more similar to a TAG system that does not allow the roots sytsem to develop many hair roots. Plus the droplet size will vary more with the solenoid(s) near the tank rather than near the nozzles also causing the system to operate more like a tag system. So as to keep expansion of plastic tubing from occurring between the tank and the solenoid just use stainless steel tubing in that location. 3/8 or 1/4" interior diameter stainless steel tubing is easy to obtain and does not increase the system price a great deal. Using an accumulator tank on a small system along with the addition of a pressure switch means the accumulator will run for a short period of time every few hours. That increases the life of the pump and decreases the time span you must listen to the pump running.

Yes you can get some of what some call nute lock out running a HP aero or air atomized aero system without the addition of the fogger or some sort of rinsing sprayer/mister due to changes in Ph and due to ion inbalance/changes of the nutrients as nutrient salts and exudate from the roots remain on the roots between sprays if the salts and exudates are not rinsed off between sprays. Then their are the obvious effects nute problems caused by using recirculating reservoirs to include increased chances of nute lock out. Some people try to avoid this by daily adjusting the EC and pH of recirculating reservoir nutrient water, yet few actually use a seperate rinsing spray system or rinsing fogger system so few truly address the pH problems and EC problems caused by not rinsing. The associated problems of not rinsing and and using recirculating reservoirs are noticeable as often seen nutrient deficiency signs. As spray cycles are short and nutrient nutrient EC's are low nutrient deficiency problems can occur much more in non rinsed HP and air atomized systems and systems, especially if they are not drain to waste and also not rinsed, then would occur with soil growing systems or many different hydroponic systems.

Most HP aero growers tend to use many more spray nozzles then needed which increases the problems already mentioned such as droplet sizes and spray on problems until piping pressure is let off when not using a solenoid close to the nozzles or when not using one at all. Ie it is IMHO better to use two larger nozzles spraying for the same time periods then using for an example 4 smaller volume nozzles spraying for the same time periods. Less tubing between the nozzles and pump with out an accumulator or between the solenoids and nozzles when using an accumulator means less problems of spray on and varying droplet sizes.

As I said before these problems are easier and cheaper to minimize with a gravity fed air atomized system than with a HP aero system.

There are illustrations of atomix air atomized commercially built and sold systems on web sites. I have not seen and photos of DIY air atomized systems online. They are really not difficult systems to build but they do require the money to be spent to purchase an oil less air compressor. The Atomix uses a compressor system that uses a refrigeration type compressor that is pretty quiet but it does use oil in the compressor which must be topped off at times. This means you are continuously spraying small amounts of oil on your plants roots. Even they are unreasonably priced. Ie a $1000 dollar or so. Myself I buy army surplus Air Technigues brand (top of the line brand) oil less dental compressors from ebay sellers for less money even figuring in the higher shipping costs for the larger units. http://cgi.ebay.com/Air-Techniques-...356?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb7168a5c Plus they are much better built and have a much larger air production capacity and use no oil. I use a much larger air tank in addition to the Air Techniques supplied tank so as to have many hours of misting capacity during a power outage..
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
eburna said:
thefatman: thanks for all the great information. :thank you:
I have never heard of an air atomized system. I must admit, I'm still unclear about the details of how to assemble one. :chin:

I'm not going to be running a commercial size grow, so I think the high pressure system may still suit my needs while delivering droplets within the correct range for a true aeroponic system. Would I be able to minimize the effects of residual water in the tubing resulting in uneven droplet size if I simply placed my accumulator and pump 2 feet from the growing chamber?

I was thinking about running a growing chamber with 6 plants in it, covering a 4' by 6' space. I was thinking about using the aquatec 5800 with an accumulator (I can't seem to find one large enough), 12 volt high pressure normally closed solenoid valve, a pressure regulator with gauge, and 6 mister heads. The root chamber would drain to waste and the pump would draw from an external reservoir. :artist:

I'm having difficulty figuring a few things out: first, how would I power a solenoid and connect it to a timer? Would it simply hook up to a timer like the sentinel DRT? Should I use pressure switch to automatically pressurize the accumulator?

Second, is there anyway to control the vertical root growth? I plan on scrogging them at 12 inches, would that effect root stretching? I notice that it seems like no matter how tall the growing chambers all, the roots always hit the bottom, compromising the aeroponic nutrient delivery. I want my root chamber to be at least 2' deep, is that sufficient?

I didn't know that you could have problems with salt build-up in an aeroponic system, but if a fogger can fix that, it seems simple enough. Has anyone ever got nute lockout running an aeroponic system?

Thanks for the help!:tiphat:

PetFlora: Hm, so you didn't need the accumulator in the end, you say? Being pragmatic I asked myself how much might I give up vs any other grow style?

It would really simplify the set-up if I could eliminate the need for the solenoid and accumulator but I wonder why you didn't notice any problems in root development if the supposed reason that aeroponics is superior is that the droplets are small enough for easy uptake and varying sizes would presumably negate that. I really appreciated your journal by the way, it was excellent to learn from. :thank you: Thanks. I learn more and more with each grow

hmm, some food for thought: the reason that people use solenoids with accumulators instead of running pumps alone is because the pump depressurizing causes larger micron droplets. It's more involved than that. also the reason thefatman runs a system where he controls depressurizing at the nozzle is because the depressurizing of the solenoid controlling the accumulator likewise causes larger micron droplets. So it seems that thefatman has perfected the problem of aeroponic design by putting a valve on the nozzles themselves and eliminating the space for depressurized water to collect. Well, sort of... it's also a factor of time to reach 50+ psi at the mist head. Time is shortened with short tubing runs, and tubing wall thickness/stiffness. My rig fills a 30 gallon pod in under 2 seconds at > 50+ psi with minimal spittle.

With my system a moderately advanced grower can grow 4-6 killer quality plants. as easily as one.

The accum crowd can only grow the same per specified grow area, and their yield may only be at best 20% higher, but with al those extra variables?????? So...? the faster the pressurization. Can minimizing the effect be as simple as placing the pump very close to the nozzles?
Click to expand...

At the end of the day, we choose systems (or versions of systems) that we like. There is no absolute, though I admit HPA/TAG + accumulator is pretty close to ideal, but, you need to be able to handle hardware failure on the fly or you could lose an entire grow. I don't like the odds.

At this level, you will be growing some outrageous weed. no matter how advanced you want to take it. Personally, the easier/simpler, the better . hth
 
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