chemical seed scarification

Creeperpark

Well-known member
Pure bubbled water with a low pH will do the same thing but without the extra acidity. I never soak seed in H2O2 because that is very unnatural and can cause problems if the seed tail is exposed to Hydrogen and the H2O2 is too concentrated. .Hydrogen peroxide has pH values of 2.5 to 3.5 and is commonly due to the Hydrogen content. The more hydrogen the seed is exposed to more the shock to the embryo. The acid that dissolves the seed coating also dissolves any root hairs on the root tips it's exposed to. If you water the hydrogen down and dilute it until the pH is 6 something, then it's no different than good old fashion water. Soaking seed in any liquid is not a guarantee. The mixture he used is just plain water after diluting the peroxide with water. and nothing special. Using a substrate that is in the low 6s pH will stratify the seed coat just fine and better than an H2O2 soak. I don't fall for that crap because it's snake oil Sorry. 😎
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
Store-bought Hydrogen peroxide at 3% has a pH of ~6 and mixed with tap water will lose its hydrogen content. Base molecules take precedence over hydrogen molecules because of the charge. One water molecule gains a hydrogen and therefore takes on a positive charge, and in this case, the water molecule loses a hydrogen atom and therefore becomes negatively charged making base content. So the mixtures you see all over the internet are fake and do nothing but sell a lot of Hydrogen Peroxide.

Seed coats have nothing to do with germinating cannabis seeds, the coat's function is for protection from external threats. Water enters the seed either through a tiny opening in the seed called the micropyle. The seeds use imbibition to awaken the embryo. Imbibition is a process of absorption of water by solid particles of a substance without forming a solution. The substance which absorbs the water is called imbitants, and the liquid is called imitate. For the imbibition process to occur, the imitate needs to be hydrophilic as a hydrophobic substance cannot imbibe. Hydrophilic as a hydrophobic substance cannot imbibe means to use proper pH water. Here's a photo of a micropyle of cannabis seed.
 

Attachments

  • photo2101024.jpg
    photo2101024.jpg
    53.2 KB · Views: 7
  • photo2101025.jpg
    photo2101025.jpg
    55.5 KB · Views: 7

44:86N

Well-known member
Seed coats have nothing to do with germinating cannabis seeds, the coat's function is for protection from external threats. Water enters the seed either through a tiny opening in the seed called the micropyle. The seeds use imbibition to awaken the embryo. Imbibition is a process of absorption of water by solid particles of a substance without forming a solution. The substance which absorbs the water is called imbitants, and the liquid is called imitate. For the imbibition process to occur, the imitate needs to be hydrophilic as a hydrophobic substance cannot imbibe. Hydrophilic as a hydrophobic substance cannot imbibe means to use proper pH water. Here's a photo of a micropyle of cannabis seed.

That's some great botanical info, there! For the new growers, when planting directly into the soil, that is the part of the seed that is oriented down.

It's been a long time since I have soaked, or paper toweled seeds, but I have a commercial greenhouse (ornamental plants) and the option to use a mist bench. I honestly can't recall the year I began to use Zerotol in my mist lines (I now use Sanidate 5.0), which is a commercial 20% H2O2 product, also containing a stabilizing acid.

The way I sow all my seeds, including my hobby cannabis plants, is on somewhat dry germination mix (cannabis seeds get inserted about 5mm into the soil, micropyle down!) and then exposed to mist (supplemented with H2O2) on timers. After 24 hours the soil is evenly saturated, but not soggy-wet, and I will start backing the mist times down. It is possible to over-saturate the soil, so diligence is required.

I am not sure how many plants, and I'm talking a wide variety of perennials, annuals, herbs and veggies, I have started over the past 24 years from seed. I've got a good solid 40,000 seed to sow over the next 3 months (all by my hand) and I am expecting maybe one or two things to fail, and that's the seed, not me!

I have just sprouted 12 cannabis seeds on my benches, under H2O2 mist (and yes, it is an oxidizer. Dosage amount matters. It can and does cause cell damage. In any living tissue), and will try get some new pics of this setup soon.

All this is to say, as a commercial grower who has sown and grown probably close to 1,000,000 plants from just seed (not talking cuttings here, that's another story) over the past 2 decades, I would not want to roll without H2O2 in my mist lines!!!!

Here's 1,800 seedlings, out of 1,954 seeds, and they were not "fresh," all sprouted under H2O2 mist, and watered with H2O2 water. I am on a well, which is good for this type of setup. I do not like tap (chlorinated) water, and I have not grown using that type of water since 1996!


Click image for larger version  Name:	Greatest Cannabis Moment.jpg Views:	1 Size:	81.6 KB ID:	18035817
 

44:86N

Well-known member
As I roll this around in my head, it is obvious that the primary difference between what Creeperpark and I are saying is this:

If you already have decontaminated water (chlorinated tap), then the addition of H2O2 is going to adversely affect the pH.

If you are using well/dirty water, the addition of H2O2 will oxidize the extra organic load resulting in (I think, please check my chemistry) extra available Oxygen and Hydrogen, without affecting the pH (my pH stays stable after the addition of H2O2, in the range of 6.4 to 6.6)
 

xylemhort

New member
Pure bubbled water with a low pH will do the same thing but without the extra acidity. I never soak seed in H2O2 because that is very unnatural and can cause problems if the seed tail is exposed to Hydrogen and the H2O2 is too concentrated. .Hydrogen peroxide has pH values of 2.5 to 3.5 and is commonly due to the Hydrogen content. The more hydrogen the seed is exposed to more the shock to the embryo. The acid that dissolves the seed coating also dissolves any root hairs on the root tips it's exposed to. If you water the hydrogen down and dilute it until the pH is 6 something, then it's no different than good old fashion water. Soaking seed in any liquid is not a guarantee. The mixture he used is just plain water after diluting the peroxide with water. and nothing special. Using a substrate that is in the low 6s pH will stratify the seed coat just fine and better than an H2O2 soak. I don't fall for that crap because it's snake oil Sorry. 😎

Chemical scarification with h202 is a well established process in the greenhouse industry. There are dozens of plant trials that have proven its efficacy in increasing germination ratios in many hard to propogate species.
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member


That's some great botanical info, there! For the new growers, when planting directly into the soil, that is the part of the seed that is oriented down.

It's been a long time since I have soaked, or paper toweled seeds, but I have a commercial greenhouse (ornamental plants) and the option to use a mist bench. I honestly can't recall the year I began to use Zerotol in my mist lines (I now use Sanidate 5.0), which is a commercial 20% H2O2 product, also containing a stabilizing acid.

The way I sow all my seeds, including my hobby cannabis plants, is on somewhat dry germination mix (cannabis seeds get inserted about 5mm into the soil, micropyle down!) and then exposed to mist (supplemented with H2O2) on timers. After 24 hours the soil is evenly saturated, but not soggy-wet, and I will start backing the mist times down. It is possible to over-saturate the soil, so diligence is required.

I am not sure how many plants, and I'm talking a wide variety of perennials, annuals, herbs and veggies, I have started over the past 24 years from seed. I've got a good solid 40,000 seed to sow over the next 3 months (all by my hand) and I am expecting maybe one or two things to fail, and that's the seed, not me!

I have just sprouted 12 cannabis seeds on my benches, under H2O2 mist (and yes, it is an oxidizer. Dosage amount matters. It can and does cause cell damage. In any living tissue), and will try get some new pics of this setup soon.

All this is to say, as a commercial grower who has sown and grown probably close to 1,000,000 plants from just seed (not talking cuttings here, that's another story) over the past 2 decades, I would not want to roll without H2O2 in my mist lines!!!!

Here's 1,800 seedlings, out of 1,954 seeds, and they were not "fresh," all sprouted under H2O2 mist, and watered with H2O2 water. I am on a well, which is good for this type of setup. I do not like tap (chlorinated) water, and I have not grown using that type of water since 1996!



Wow, I love your setup! Do you use gravity-activated misters or are your misters on a timer? I hope you don't mind me asking what kind of lighting are you using over your mister's? Do you use peat or coco as your main substrate? When ICmag opens up its commercial forum for commercial growers you could share what you know if you didn't mind. I really like your start-up setup! Your information is super, Thanks for sharing 44😎
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
As I roll this around in my head, it is obvious that the primary difference between what Creeperpark and I are saying is this:

If you already have decontaminated water (chlorinated tap), then the addition of H2O2 is going to adversely affect the pH.

If you are using well/dirty water, the addition of H2O2 will oxidize the extra organic load resulting in (I think, please check my chemistry) extra available Oxygen and Hydrogen, without affecting the pH (my pH stays stable after the addition of H2O2, in the range of 6.4 to 6.6)

Water purity is what I'm talking about, H202 mixed with unpure reg water will cancel the effects. When mixed with tap water the mixture is worthless.😎
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
No disrespect intended, and the point I was making was that bubbled water with an air stone will do the same thing except without the Hydrogen. I don't use any kind of fungicides, but you can, and no offense. 😎
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
There are so many products on the market that are just plain lies and take advantage of people not knowing the difference, for company profits. Most especially in the cannabis world, home growers and do it your self-ers, can get boned pretty easy and not even know it.. 😎
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
BTW 44, Sanidate 5.0 and Zerotol are not plain 3% hydrogen peroxide, they are both fungicides that have a lot of hydrogen peroxide added. Sanidate 5.0 having 20% H2O2 and also"peroxyacetic acid" in it which helps stabilize your well water. I'm not talking about using fungicides, I'm talking about mixing plain water with 3 % Hydrogen Peroxide won't make any difference with germination and is snake oil! 😎
 

44:86N

Well-known member
BTW 44, Sanidate 5.0 and Zerotol are not plain 3% hydrogen peroxide, they are both fungicides that have a lot of hydrogen peroxide added. Sanidate 5.0 having 20% H2O2 and also"peroxyacetic acid" in it which helps stabilize your well water. I'm not talking about using fungicides, I'm talking about mixing plain water with 3 % Hydrogen Peroxide won't make any difference with germination and is snake oil! 😎

Yes, they are similar, but at the same time different. But, as I said above, these products absolutely make all the difference when germinating seed or rooting cuttings (it's the extra oxygen, and the bubbler systems you mentioned does the same thing at a different scale) I've used Sanidate 5.0 to cauterize small cuts, it's that strong. And it is also much more stable than the store bought 3%.

In terms of the mist bench set-up, they are run off a side-line to the main water supply, after going through the Sanidate 5.0 injection station (Biosafe Systems looked at a water test for us, and made a dosage recommendation of 0.75 oz. per gallon for a stock solution through a 1:100 Gator Injector).

The misting is controlled by 2 timers -- a 24 hour timer (with 15 minute increments) controls a 10 minute timer (with 1 minute increments). The 10 minute timer controls a celluloid valve (standard irrigation valve), which turns the mist on and off. Just water pressure driving the mist lines.

The lighting is a fixture from SANSI, purchased off Amazon, here's that blurb:
SANSI LED Grow Light with COC Technology, 70W Grow Lamp (700 Watt Equivalent), PPF 112 umol/s LED Full Spectrum with Optical Lens for High PPFD, Energy Saving Plant Lights for Seeding and Growing

I specifically purchased these lights because they are waterproof. They are not for growing cannabis, but for providing longer daylight during the winter, and some added intensity. This really helps speed up rooting times on my unrooted annual cuttings (I've got 24,000 booked for spring 2022, and still need to book another 6,000 mums and perennials).

There's really no way I can verify the light spectrum on these lamps, but they do a good enough job. I would really like to get some other benches setup with lighting for growing on, using Samsung's newer horticultural LED strips. Samsung did a lot of research around 10 years ago into hort led's, and I am very impressed with what they have come up with. On my bucket list.

And thanks for your kind words, Creeperpark. I appreciate your posts, too, and will be happy to add in my experiences with a commercial range.
 

CannaRed

Cannabinerd
Recent scientific studies back up the effectiveness of chemically scarifying seeds by soaking them in a solution of hydrogen peroxide and water. Hydrogen peroxide is thought to increase germination rates by breaking down the seed coat, thus allowing the seed to take in more oxygen. In a study reported in the journal "HortScience," aged corn seeds (Zea mays L.) treated with a solution of 15 percent hydrogen peroxide germinated at a significantly greater percentage (nearly 95 percent) than seeds treated with aerated water but no hydrogen peroxide (67 percent germination rate). In addition, oxygen consumption rates of seeds soaked for 24 hours in the hydrogen peroxide solution were approximately twice as high as seeds soaked in aerated water for the same time.

Better Chance of Sprouting
A similar study, this one using seeds of eastern gamagrass (Tripsacum dactyloides), compared the effectiveness of stratification and hydrogen peroxide soaks. As reported in "Acta Horticulturae," the publication of the International Society for Horticultural Science, soaking seeds in a 15 percent hydrogen peroxide solution was most effective at breaking seed dormancy and inducing germination. Gamagrass is hardy growing in U.S. Department of Agriculture plant hardiness zones 8 through 11.

Help Your Seeds Breathe
It's easy to improve your at-home germination rates by using hydrogen peroxide in your pre-planting routine. Simply add 1 ounce of 3-percent hydrogen peroxide to 1 pint of water; choose one of the following three methods. One, soak your seeds for 18 to 24 hours, rinse and plant. Two, place your seeds on a length of paper towels, use a mister filled with the hydrogen peroxide-water solution to thoroughly dampen (but not soak) the towels and the seeds, then roll up the towels loosely or simply fold them over so that all sides of the seeds are in contact with moist paper towel. Mist them lightly each day (or when the towel dries out) and plant them when sprouts emerge. Three, just rinse your seeds with the solution, then plant.

https://www.hunker.com/12629366/how-does-hydrogen-peroxide-affect-seed-germination
 

44:86N

Well-known member
Hydrogen peroxide was initially recognized as a toxic molecule that causes damage at different levels of cell organization and thus losses in cell viability. From the 1990s, the role of hydrogen peroxide as a signaling molecule in plants has also been discussed. The beneficial role of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] as a central hub integrating signaling network in response to biotic and abiotic stress and during developmental processes is now well established. Seed germination is the most pivotal phase of the plant life cycle, affecting plant growth and productivity. The function of hydrogen peroxide in seed germination and seed aging has been illustrated in numerous studies; however, the exact role of this molecule remains unknown.

Good discussion! H2O2 does make a difference in propagation,when used at proper rates (more is not better with H2O2), for both seed and cuttings, in my experience. Just a little poking around with the right search key words yields some interesting links and info, like the above quote. I very much appreciate the sentence,
The function of hydrogen peroxide in seed germination and seed aging has been illustrated in numerous studies; however, the exact role of this molecule remains unknown.

That's from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740362/

And "
Presowing treatment of seeds with hydrogen peroxide promotes germination and development of plants":

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ment_of_plants
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
Good discussion! H2O2 does make a difference in propagation,when used at proper rates (more is not better with H2O2), for both seed and cuttings, in my experience. Just a little poking around with the right search key words yields some interesting links and info, like the above quote. I very much appreciate the sentence,

That's from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740362/

And "
Presowing treatment of seeds with hydrogen peroxide promotes germination and development of plants":

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ment_of_plants

Super Info and thank you, The main point I was making is mixing 3% H202 with tap water is not effective. 44, do you have any problems with phytotoxicity on your greenhouse plants using Zerotol? What is the starting ppm and pH of the water before you add Zerotol?😎
 
Top