Cannabis and Canine Lymphoma

[LouDog420]

As good a place as any to start a discussion... Most here are likely already aware of the benefits of cannabis for those battling various cancers. Dr. David Allen and Dr. Dennis Hill speak quite well on the subject and their research into both THC, CBD, and other cannabinoids and the effect on cancers and in general our homeostasis (if unfamiliar, take 10 minutes to google some of their ^^ interviews).

I'd like this to be a place where we can talk about our four legged friends, and their battles, benefits, share info, and document. There's already a nice thread here which has some useful information that's definitely worth a read: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=289456


BACKGROUND
Lymphoma in particular, a pretty nasty, aggressive form of cancer from what I've read/heard/learned. There's the possibility of remission with a combo of conventional treatments, but you're never going to beat it. Remission might end up being a year or several in the best scenarios. There’s plenty of info out there on the types, treatments, stats for all conventional options, and absolutely all have their time and place in my opinion.

Approached by a friend with an older girl battling lymphoma, who doesn't feel like conventional treatment is the way to go given her age and various other factors. So that leaves cannabis oil. Luckily, there is a high quality source of oil from non-hemp varieties, with varying levels of CBD:THC, ranging from 40:1 on both ends of the spectrum (high CBD and high THC), to 1:1s right in the middle. That does make things nice for math and monitoring dosages. For those without access, you can always make your own with what’s available, but I have heard of some success with the over the counter CBD oil from hemp as well, mainly with seizures. Google, again your friend, there are plenty of legal CBD supplement options.

First step was considering dosage and things to look out for. It turns out dogs have an extra sensitivity to THC due to their brain structure. Of all mammals, dogs have the highest measured amount of CB1 receptors in their brain, generally in the areas related to coordination. I’m no means a vet and stole that info directly from one, so I’ll let these vets explain it much better than myself. Check out this link with great info on our furry friends and their body's interactions with cannabis (link doesn't work, IC won't let me post it without the s in the https... Copy the link and delete the first s, and then the link should work... sorry...): https://hawthornevet.com/resources/medicinal-cannabis-pets

Basic summary, dogs have a THC sensitivity. To maximize cannabinoid intake, we’re going to focus on CBD here with a little supplementary THC. I’m a firm believer that a wide array of cannabinoids is the best for any treatment. Full plant extract and oils; which is what we’re going to be working with here.

Recommended dosages (from the link):
1 mg/kg/day oral CBD
0.1 – 0.25 mg/kg/day oral THC

Warning Signs of Overdose (again, from the link):
Swaying/disorientation
Drooling
Accidental urination


MEET THE WILD DOG
So now we have a baseline for treatment, dosages, and a basic understanding of how it will affect our pup and the things to look out for. I think a great time to introduce our girl. 9.5 year old, black lab mix. 57 pounds (25.9kg). A friend that approached me. She was diagnosed with B cell Lymphoma at the end of July 2017 and started her cannabis oil treatments on July 31 (effectively August 1st for easy recordkeeping)… Supposedly it was one of the earliest cases they’ve come across at the vet in terms of the diseases progression, so a good thing it was caught quick, and she was started on treatments immediately (same day we got the news).

She’s a healthy girl, and does about 3 miles a day where she can run full speed, wild dog style, with her dog pack. Great health aside from a few problems when she was younger, all unrelated I believe. So the goal is quality of life here. Of course we’re trying to fight off the cancer, but let’s not be under any delusion in thinking it will go away completely. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but best to keep our expectations in order. So, we want to make sure she can still run her loop every day, with good coordination balancing cannabinoid intake with daily life, but definitely maximizing ingestion in hopes of fighting the cancer and maybe some additional pain relief and immune system boost.

Oh, and here’s the wild dog, cause the thread's gotta have a hook

 

[LouDog420]

DETERMINING DOSAGES
We’re going to get a baseline for doggie dosage based on the vet numbers provided, but also, I think, valid to compare to a more generalized cancer treatment regimen. A fairly standard is 60 grams of oil in 90 days. Of course, vastly varying concentrations of what constitutes oil, so that statement could lead to very different dosing, but a baseline nonetheless. Assuming our average person is 150 – 200 pounds, we’d be looking at 1/3 to ¼ of those values for our girl here. (very rough math considering all the assumptions we are making). So our chosen target here (for this aggressive cancer, let’s err on the side of caution as long as no significant side effects) of 20-30 grams in that same 90 day period.

This comes out to 200-300mg/day for the full duration (again rough math)…

Now, let’s compare the vet dosages, and now a great time to go into our cannabis oil. As mentioned, we have tested oil, now the accuracy of the testing, always taken with a grain of salt, especially in markets where higher test scores justify higher prices… But, this is a great quality oil, from a compassionate provider, that is at least close to what they say it is. It’s a 60% CBD and 1.5% THC for a nice 40:1. The oil comes in a syringe, and its density is close enough to 1 where 1mL is 1 gram.

Knowing this and the recommended dosages from the link and using the upper limit for an aggressive cancer, we get the following (replace 25.9kg with your dogs weight if looking to figure out dosage for another pup):

And from our interpolation of the 60g in 90 days treatment, we got 300mg/day raw cannabis oil previously. So let’s see what those numbers would come to if we followed that treatment regimen knowing our oil is 60% CBD and 1.5% THC (replace the 0.6 and 0.015 with your corresponding CBD and THC testing percentage if you have them and are figuring dosages for another pup. 60% = 0.6 and 1.5% = 0.015. Also, re-figure your target dosage using your pups weight):

So, if we model our treatment after what a lot of medical patients are doing (60 grams in 90 days), we end up right in the sweet spot for THC dosage, but about 7x the recommended concentration for CBD. Well, considering THC is the main issue and concern with toxicity, I’d rather up the CBD than the THC, especially when going after cancer, so it’s time to start the trial runs.


STARTING TREATMENT
If the goal is 300mg raw oil per day, it’s definitely best to split it up. So I wanted to see how she would respond to a full 100mg dose. If she wouldn’t have taken it well, it only would have been about double the recommended CBD dosage, with significantly less THC as well, so worst case, she would sleep it off and we’d adjust the next day and try again.

She was given 0.1ml (100mg) of 60/1.5 cannabis oil. She certainly napped a little harder. She was voraciously hungry (as noticed by multiple people that succumbed to her begging). There was a bit of drooling, but nothing excessive. She was always a drooler, and it was only a little more than usual. There was no disorientation, no sway, clumsiness. She was monitored throughout the day, babied in fact, to watch for any adverse reactions. About 5 hours after the dose was administered, when it no doubt would have been fully in effect, or starting to wear off a bit, they went for their usual walk. There were no coordination issues what so ever. Energy was there, really great results. So, after getting back, she got her second dose before bed, and settled in the first day at 200mg.

The second day, we planned the full 300mg, spread out in the morning, afternoon, and night time. Of course monitoring response and watching for any warning signs. She took it like a champ.


ONGOING TREATMENT
We’re now 2 weeks into our treatment, with a steady 300mg/day of the 60/1.5 cannabis oil (and of course daily walks where she still runs like the wild dog she is, with no side effects). I think important to reiterate this is high CBD oil and again refer to this link with some of the risks with dogs and THC (again, delete the first s in the https... or just google 'medical cannabis pets') https://hawthornevet.com/resources/medicinal-cannabis-pets

So, hopefully some of this info can help someone. We’ll be sure to update with wild dog’s progress and may increase to 400mg/day here soon given how well she seems to be handling it. While it is certainly early, there was a lot of lymph node growth right before and during the first week of treatment. They got big fast, going from barely swollen where you might think, maybe she has an infection, to some pretty large lumps. While it’s hard to tell exactly, the aggressive growth has certainly stopped and overall they’ve gotten a little smaller (maybe??)... 300mg of raw oil for a 50 pound dog right out of the gate is no small dose however, so we’ll see. In the meantime, we have a happy, wild, running, coordinated dog that hopefully gets a little pain relief on top of the cancer battle the cannabinoids are waging.

Good vibes to all the pups and pup lovers out there. Comments, questions, stories of course welcome, and a big Fuck You to cancer!

 

[Tacoavenger17]

Best of lucky to you, my prayers are with you and wild dog.

 

[LouDog420]

Thank you for the kind words in the thread and through rep messages. I've forwarded those messages and general good vibes.

Quick update. General life expectancy without treatment, 1 month, maybe 2 if there is little additional organ/bone marrow issues. We were diagnosed, for ease of recordkeeping, on August 1st, so we're a little over six weeks in at this point.

Lymph nodes are still swelling throughout the body. They did seem like they stalled there for a bit, but when they started back up again, it was pretty vigorous growth. Neck, back legs, shoulders, armpits, pretty much all nodes are now significantly swollen.

Other symptoms, are basically non-existent. There's a little change in breathing, as it seems like the lymph nodes in the neck may be pushing on the wind pipe a bit. It's more pronounced when active and panting, but doesn't seem to bother the pup other than an auditory change to the owner. Otherwise, still active, happy, the same running, wild dog as always.

Lots of treats, so the wild dog is a bit more emboldened and now won't leave you alone until you give up a slice of deli meat or something tasty. Either get a treat, or deal with constant head butts until you decide to give in. Fully aware of the fact that they're getting spoiled, and are taking full advantage...

Starting in week 6, we upped the dosage to 100mg, 4x a day, 24hr clock, administered every six hours roughly... 400mg raw oil daily, or 240mg CBD and 6mg THC. Little to no side effects.


Good vibes friends

 

[Kook]

Stop packaged foods and give him some coloidal sylver 5 ppm 30 ml x3 by day mix whit regulat pro
You can fuck the cancers whit the rigth things ,most important is your food and water . Try this book WORK WONDER RAW MEETY bones


Good luck guys

 

[Gry]

What an amazing thread.

 

[LouDog420]

November update. Originally diagnosed the last day of July. We've knocked out three months and now working on the fourth.

The wild dog is down quite a bit in weight. The swollen nodes around her neck seem to vary in size, and depending on the day, interfere with swallowing if too large. Sometimes that means pureed food or a little coaxing, but still eating well, and when she gets going, still has quite an appetite. Preferring to be hand fed due to lack of neck mobility and the swollen nodes, and we oblige gladly, not sure if it's out of necessity or she likes the pampering... Now mostly on a custom diet of whatever she's feeling that day. Eggs, chicken breasts, beef roasts, hot dogs, etc, we change it up to keep her interested and as well fed as possible.

Running into a few immune system issues. Treated an eye infection and ear infection, but a quick shot of antibiotics (drops) and those cleared right up. I'm sure the oil is providing some sort of immune boost, but has to be working overtime trying to battle a continuously spreading cancer throughout the entire body, and just needed a little help with the eye and ear gunk. All cleared up in a couple of days, no problem.

Daily walks are still greatly enjoyed, we move a little slower now, but still hitting half mile(s) daily, sometimes multiple times each day, rain or sun, she's happy to go and moving well still (running, jumping, etc, just a bit more gingerly).

Cannabis oil is still steady. 400mg raw oil seemed hit or miss depending on the exact time, so we've pretty much maintained at 300mg, sometimes hitting 400mg on a day she's doing particularly well, but rarely. 300mg of this specific oil, hitting the targets listed above for CBD and THC seems to be her sweet spot.

Of course a single case only, so take all with a grain of salt. At 3 months and still kicking, the cannabis oil seems to be at least as effective as Prednisone, if not more so. (Prednisone is a steroid commonly used as a treatment option for lymphoma outside of chemotherapy.)

I see chemo sometimes adding 12-18 months to a lifespan... If you've got a younger dog and are considering, I'd think a combo including cannabis oil during and after with chemo would absolutely be the best bet.

In my uneducated opinion, it could (theoretically) significantly extend that remission duration with continued cannabis oil treatments after chemo, allowing the cannabis oil to fight and much weakened cancer and fend off the diminished cells for longer. Maybe more so in conjunction with prednisone (of course as advised by your vet)... And if she was a younger girl, probably would have gone that way, but going on 10, I can't say I'll ever know which was the right call...

Hope this helps someone else out there trying to decide what's best for their pup.

Good vibes all,
LD

 

[woolybear]

Best of luck, sending good vibes and love to doggy and family!!!

My baby turned ten this year, no problems so far. Cheering you on!

 

[nattyroots]

This is so cool. Big up. I'm sure it will offer guidance other dog owners in similar situations.

 

[LouDog420]

Absolutely, the goal is to help others facing the same tough decisions. Surely its just anecdotal, but one more point of information when making those calls...

Figure an update is warranted to wrap up the thread since it got bumped...

Our girl passed about two weeks after my last post in November. She almost made it a full four months after diagnosis. We made the choice to bring her in and put her down, she did not pass on her own. As lymphoma progresses, one of the systems it attacks is the gastrointestinal, limiting or taking away the dog's ability to digest and process foods and nutrition. Our old girl slowed down and while still eating, starting having trouble passing her meals and continued losing weight and energy where we knew she wasn't getting the life quality she deserved, so we made the tough call.

We were active and going on walks up until the very last day. Obviously she slowed down as the disease progressed, but I think ultimately it was the inability to process foods and lack of energy. I had to carry her in after doing our last ~1/4 mile short walk. That inability to make it back was the final nail and imo her way of saying it was time to go.

Comfortable, happy, active until the end. Maybe prednisone or actual chemo treatment would have extended her lifespan, but given her age (10.5 at time of diagnosis) and the unknown effectiveness of treatment, I think we made the right call.

Always a very personal, and very situation specific decision, but hopefully these walls of text help out someone else, whatever they decide.

Good vibes to all

 

[Andyo]

Raw meaty bones!

Raw meaty bones!

Stop packaged foods and give him some coloidal sylver 5 ppm 30 ml x3 by day mix whit regulat pro
You can fuck the cancers whit the rigth things ,most important is your food and water . Try this book WORK WONDER RAW MEETY bones


Good luck guys

,

Too right Raw meaty bones ,free range eggs and fresh sea caught fish.
I watched my dog recover from a wasting disease.A