Breeding Vigor / Growth

[PolyChucker]

My friend accidentally made some seeds in his disorganized grow room and gifted them to me. I thought it would be fun to try breeding them. They were pretty weak to begin with but I’ve been able to improve frost, potency, effect and smell over 3 generations. What I’m not getting is the insane growth rates of some professional strains.
I’ve read the Soma book a couple times, and he said “put the seedlings under 24hr light for the first month, until they are about 1 foot tall.” I am definitely not getting that kind of growth. I’m lucky if they’re 3” across after 2 weeks and maybe 7-8” tall after one month. Recently I sprouted the cross of my two biggest plants just to see if I could get some quick growth rate and then blend that into the other plants but these seedlings are growing pretty slow.
It seems I’ve been able to improve a lot of aspects of the plants through inbreeding, but I’m wondering if I need to outcross to get that crazy growth.
I think plants that are super vigorous have other benefits, like they’re easier to clone because the roots are growing so fast and they show sex as soon as 6 weeks instead of 7-8+. Seems like my breeding project would be faster and easier if they had crazy growth.
For breeders out there - have you worked with slow growing plants that had great bud and were able to push the size up slowly or did you have to outcross to get those fast growth genes?

 

[Growenhaft]

hey, you are not allowed to transfer everything you read to all strains.
I assume it is an indica-heavy one. You have to treat indicas very differently from sativa-heavy ones.

 

[PolyChucker]

Hey it’s a polyhybrid, maybe GSC x Harlequin.
The grandmother from F1 I picked because she was the only one with good frost and the best effect, but she’s very tiny. I got a GSC OGKB (OG KushBreath) clone from the club for comparison and she is very similar to my grandma, very slow growth and similar structure.
I’m on F3 and I have plants with a lot of frost like grandma and they grow like 5x as fast as grandma but still not impressive growth. So I’ve seen huge leaps in some traits though I think the rate of improvement must slow as I filter through the best of the gene pool.

I have a universal growth metric which is to measure the largest dimension of the plant. I’ve plotted a few on a graph and it makes an almost perfect straight line. In the same way that doctors can predict a child’s height within an inch by doubling the height at like 5 years old, I can predict the size by making a few data points in the first two months and the line will point to where the plant will end up on a certain date. I was kinda surprised how straight this line ended up. This only works for veg.
The fastest grow at about 1/2” per day (that’s width or height depending on which is largest) and the next tier down is 1/4” per day. I think 1” per day is a reasonable rate to shoot for, just wondering if people have been able to push up the growth rate through selection to 2x or if those kind of genes just aren’t in my pool.
I was reading about Romulan and the people who were working on it were shooting for 1% improvement in growth each gen (IIRC). I used a compound interest calculator like for real estate and it would take 69 generations to double the growth rate. That’s kind of the crux of the question is what genetic drift can you get just through selection.

 

[Growenhaft]

I know that is not the core of your question, but maybe the core of your answer.

what temperatures do you have during the light phase and what temperatures do you have during the dark phase?

 

[MJPassion]

How many beans can you plant at a time?
Your best bet would be to plant as many seeds as you possibly can and toss any plants that don't perform as you wish.

Also, the fastest growing plants I've ever seen were always F1s made using 2 well bred lines. That is why it is referred to as "hybrid vigor."
IDK why but breeding with poly-hybrids does not seem yield the hybrid vigor that we desire.

 

[PolyChucker]

I got some bagseed from a friend and the biggest is 3” wide at 2wks so seems like a common rate for my setup.
Indoor here during this time is about 65-70 degrees during the day and 45-50 at night. I see what you’re getting at - maybe a heat lamp would speed things up.

 

[cbotany]

If it was me, i'd take a landrace male(Indian, mexican, even a sturdy Afghani plant) cross it both ways, lr(m)x (f) your genetics and then vice versa lr(f) x your genetic male, then back cross the plants and select, if you're not feeling a landrace just choose something sturdy, skunk #1, White widow, Early pearl so on and so forth, and you'll see vigor return

 

[PolyChucker]

How many beans can you plant at a time?
Your best bet would be to plant as many seeds as you possibly can and toss any plants that don't perform as you wish.

Also, the fastest growing plants I've ever seen were always F1s made using 2 well bred lines. That is why it is referred to as "hybrid vigor."
IDK why but breeding with poly-hybrids does not seem yield the hybrid vigor that we desire.

I have about 200 seeds from the original batch, they were almost all pretty low quality before inbreeding. I usually do over 50 at a time because I know it’s a numbers game. Always the biggest is 3” at 2wks. This sets the growth trajectory.

I have two small batches of bagseed, Sugar Kiss is not doing that well, only 3/10 small and relatively healthy sprouts - feels like herm seeds. Then I have some “mid grade sativa dom” from a friend - 25/30 look vigorous and good - hoping m-f regular seeds so I can breed this line independently and cross with my other lines to get that hybrid vigor.
If I’m understanding correctly - the regular seed breeders have a method to protect their intellectual property. They’ll use a proven male, like a G13 resinous 8wk indica, crossed with an interesting sativa dom inbred line female - then the seeds they produce will have that hybrid vigor and get a lot of interesting plants. But once the buyer tries to inbreed their favorites, they’ll lose some vigor so they won’t be able to make seeds as good as they bought. I’m interested in these types of strategies as I think I’ll spend over 5 years developing something good, and hopefully won’t lose everything once I share it with people.

 

[PolyChucker]

TBH I’m trying to make a cool strain, and not really into selling, but want this hobby to be self sustaining. So far I’ve got maybe $1500 into materials and lights etc - not hard to cover that cost if I make something desirable. The plants seem to get better each gen, so the outlook is good - would be nice to break even on costs at some point - I think I’ll get there.
In one group of F3s over winter, I got three plants whose leaves turned almost black. It’s an interesting phenotype, not much effect on the smoke but super cool looking - fun to dig up these kind of phenos. Would really like to find more unusual types - this keeps me inspired and looking for more.

 

[Growenhaft]

at your temperatures it will hardly be possible to maintain the same rate of growth as someone who adapts his climate completely.

do you have a friend who adjusts his climate? then let him grow a few of your nuts with you. to see how the genetics behave at adapted temperatures.
if you have a rather cold climate over the long term and the temperatures between night and day differ widely, it would be better to cross a 100% indica.
one which comes from the cold mountain regions. because these would still produce an acceptable growth pattern in cold weather.

 

[PolyChucker]

I have a friend with a pretty impressive grow op, high tech and seems to be close to maximum nutrients and production. He gets clones at 1ft tall and they’re 3 feet tall a month later. He’s offered to try one of my plants in his setup - he thinks it’s neat I’m trying breeding since most growers don’t bother with seed. Not worth losing a month to sprouts when you could get clones for $20/ea.

Regardless of how a maxxed out nutrient schedule affects growth, it seems most people wait a while before giving the plants much of anything. I give them some good soil, maybe .5-.5-.5 with bacteria and fungal amendments, and spritz them with some homemade kelp water - but this is not far away from almost no nutrients for the first month. The first two weeks especially seem like the plant is mainly just multiplying cells, genetic processes unfolding. Some weed plants just grow like dandelions, almost regardless of any other factors. It really seems to me the growth in the first 2-4weeks is 90% DNA and 10% care

 

[PolyChucker]

Update: I have some reference points

The gushers cut I got from a friend is growing very fast - looks different every day - this is the kind of growth I like! Outpacing everything else.
One group of the bagseeds is growing very well. I got 15 thriving plants out of maybe 23 seeds. Biggest was 8” wide at 4 weeks which is better than my poly hybrid seeds (which max out at around 6-7”). This is the bagseed my friend called mid grade sativa dom. Has a very hybrid look to it, with fat leaves on bottom, skinny leaves on top - will see about the stretch. They will be 8wks on Friday hopefully have preflower by then. I think I see little nubs in their nodes. Very happy with these. Hopefully will get a good male to continue this line separately.
my vigor x vigor poly seeds are 10wks, no preflower, varying degrees of leaf shade - some iron cal mag deficiency or something. Some are very deep green while others are lime green or chartreuse, mainly on top. They are getting 5-1-1 like all the plants but it seems some are not processing nutrients well. The mother was vigorous and stayed lime green in veg. The father was dark green. Hard to know what’s pheno versus deficiency but i gave them some calmag and the ones with veining evened out very quickly. I’m throwing all 27 of these in the flower closet to force gender out of them. I also noticed they got bleached pretty bad when I moved them outside which the other plants barely noticed. I’ve found when you work with some random poly seeds you get a lot of annoying traits that would’ve been eliminated by a breeder. But the unpredictability is kind of exciting and sometimes you get some good traits.
The sugar kiss bagseeds - I got only 3 normal but very small seedlings. All the seeds sprouted but most failed at various early stages. The three that seem to be developing normal-ish are like 6” tall at 7 weeks but I recently uppotted to 1 gal and the roots are strong and leaves a deep green so maybe they’ll take off.

 

[JockBudman]

MJPassion had the answer pal, your no gonnae see the same growth rate from a polyhybrid inbred line as from a F1 hybrid cross. It's the same for all plant breedin.

The grow am runnin the now, there's two inbred hybrids ma mate made an next tae them is a F1 ah made. Ma F1 had way better growth rates, stretched more an is just generally a quicker plant. Nothin wrong wi ma man's work, but F1 will always be more vigorous than inbred, that's just genetics.

 

[PolyChucker]

MJPassion had the answer pal, your no gonnae see the same growth rate from a polyhybrid inbred line as from a F1 hybrid cross. It's the same for all plant breedin.

Thanks I will inbreed these lines separately until the plants are uniform and ready for cross.

 

[Fuel]

What I’m not getting is the insane growth rates of some professional strains.

Heterosis-effect put aside (for F1), this is mostly due to the level of compatibility of the final parents in term of productivity (photosynthesis, roots, hormones (branching, cloning etc...). Blend twos distinct "unbreakable" lines fully breeded outdoor since at least 3 generations (from seed to seeds), then voilà ... you got your green-monster-truck growing fine everywhere. The example is a bit simplistic but it stay a good synthesis. You can extend the concept for potency, flavors, colors ... in adding in the equation the "artificial leverages" and/or even the luck.

I’ve read the Soma book a couple times, and he said “put the seedlings under 24hr light for the first month, until they are about 1 foot tall.” I am definitely not getting that kind of growth.

Soma is not specially my guru, but i'm using this strategy since a while now for a stupid reason : it drastically increase your process of selection in term of time when you're handle it the right way (adapted nutrients, adapted root management ...). The "foot tall rule" don't have any sense for me, i've an africaan hybrid which reach this height within twos week and also an inbred sweet tooth #3 wich play it "low rider" when the month is reached : a lot more large than tall until the stretch is triggered with the light. Count the inter-nodes instead, it's a more universal "checkpoint" and a more reliable/fast one when you have to deal with numerous plants for selection.

I firmly think that it's a mistake to think that it (24hrs) will drastically change or disturb the DNA potential during this early phase.

I’m wondering if I need to outcross to get that crazy growth.

Absolutely not a need but a choice. Outcrossing your lines in an early stage of a (in)breeding plan is just like to randomize all you have done, and to restart from scratch the mapping of the expressed linked traits you're knowing. The heterosis is not a magic trick, it don't necessary output a crazy vigor btw. To stay on my stupid example with the wish to stay simple : take a handfull of seeds in your batch, throw it in your garden as it (for real) and let it grow. Let the males going matures after July, harvest the seeds of the most vigorous female (the one which is not stopped in her development in August/September by the pollen and the young seeds everywhere, which don't mean specially the biggest or the more fat). Sow again if you want more vigor or use this single generation if you only want to "refresh" your lines without outcrossing it. Off course you can extend that stupid (but valid) strategy with more advanced ones in your process of selection, indoor.

I think plants that are super vigorous have other benefits, like they’re easier to clone because the roots are growing so fast and they show sex as soon as 6 weeks instead of 7-8+.

I've more specimens in mind (since the 90's) ultra vigorous, which are woody early and are shitty to clone as fck than the reverse. The cloning performances are more related with the hormonal production of the specimens than specifically their vigor. I've also a bunch of weak specimens in mind who can be cloned in a simple glass of water within one week, but than are an hell to transplant and get back in a productive vegetative stage. Roots are like the buds in a way, a result of production. A final product. It's not because your buds are bigs than they are necessary good with ton of trichomes and full of flavors.

Seems like my breeding project would be faster and easier if they had crazy growth.

I agree 100% with this philosophy, but it's also a matter of personal choice. Not a matter of an universal rule. A bunch of the breeders have fantastic weed breeded from weak phenos.

I’m on F3 and I have plants with a lot of frost like grandma and they grow like 5x as fast as grandma but still not impressive growth.

Keep in mind than you're not starting with a monster, at the basis. Harlequin and GSC are not fat skunks able to grow careless everywhere. Just a reminder.

I have a universal growth metric which is ... This only works for veg.

I don't have the intention to be salty but it's the point of the use of the word "vegetative" in the vegetative stage. You can reach the same conclusion with a ton of others methods, more or less esoteric. I repeat again, don't focus on height for vigor but swear by the whole structure only. The overall balance of the specimen in the vegetative stage in all its critical traits. You absolutely don't want in your genpool a tall lady with a small mass of thin roots, which fade out or stop to grow when the stretch is triggered because she can't feed it. Imagine loaded with seeds now. It's an example.

just wondering if people have been able to push up the growth rate through selection to 2x or if those kind of genes just aren’t in my pool.

200% growth rate isn't impossible with this plant in using only what you have in the genotype (no outcross), but the real question is : at what cost and for which priority ?
The case where you want to preserve everything intact but increasing the vigor by 200% can take a lifespan too reach, or never be entirely reached. That's the real game, it can eat your life like an ogre if too much passion is involved for a line. With breeding, compromises are sometimes a better way to reach your goals than obsessionnal choices.

I was reading about Romulan and the people who were working on it were shooting for 1% improvement in growth each gen

1% of vigor don't have any sense, in practice. I mean for your dirty hands that manipulate the plants. Seedlings killed, overall vegetal mass (roots + aerial), "vegetal mass produced per day ratio" during vegetative stage, "vegetal mass produced per day ratio" during flowering stage, "minimal watt/sqm intensity" to reach xxxgr/sqm etc ... it much more "concrete" for my black nails.

That’s kind of the crux of the question is what genetic drift can you get just through selection.

It's exactly the compromise i was talking about. It's a choice in fact. At which cost you want to increase the potency ? the flavor ? the color ? etc ...
Genetic drift exist, but it's not specially contextual there.

If I’m understanding correctly - the regular seed breeders have a method to protect their intellectual property. They’ll use a proven male, like a G13 resinous 8wk indica, crossed with an interesting sativa dom inbred line female - then the seeds they produce will have that hybrid vigor and get a lot of interesting plants. But once the buyer tries to inbreed their favorites, they’ll lose some vigor so they won’t be able to make seeds as good as they bought.

It's an interresting example because the G13 donor can be considered as a particularity. It's not a good plant, but produce often incredible lines. So, in a way and even if you have the incredible level to "reverse-engineer" the line ... you will not get what you're expecting lol The source of the hybrid you will like in F1 is the F1 itself. And it's more often the case than the reverse.

In the absolute and if you have the time, a solid/proven methodology, the experience and the space for that ... you can push the hybrid to a point of segregation where you can extract something very close to the P1. But you have to be mad or very very passionnated, it's more easy and much more interesting to start from scratch from close genetics than doing that.

Now, you have to understand than a lot of people don't care much about the qualitative approach. "Something similar" is enough for them and i respect that also. From this point you have to known than entire feminized catalogs, supposed to be not reliable as genetic material, are used to be "hacked" just by double-feminization. And people are buying it, and are happy with it.

In a way, there is no way to "protect your intellectual property" (wtf lol). Life always find a way to teach you that you're not a god ^^

I’m interested in these types of strategies as I think I’ll spend over 5 years developing something good, and hopefully won’t lose everything once I share it with people.

Don't send seeds to anyone, and you will be "safe". Salty mode (without "mean intention at all", just realistic humor) : If you're developping something good (by that i mean "competitive"), people will know your breeder's name as fast that the name of the strain. Some will buy the "original" to work with it, others will buy hybrids more compatible with their taste, some others will just fem your females and sell it, cross it with hemp ... if you reach this state, you will be enough supported to don't give a fck about that, focused on your next projects and harassed by your fans and/or your partners all damned days.

TBH I’m trying to make a cool strain, and not really into selling, but want this hobby to be self sustaining. So far I’ve got maybe $1500 into materials and lights etc - not hard to cover that cost if I make something desirable.

It's matter of time, but in this game if you want get back your teeth fast you have to become industrial fast. No matter the philosophy, i don't judge. Making a fem catalog as fast than you can, working decades on three lines, trading cuts and playing with it ... but the old way ? ^^ 80's-90's are over for good bro, it's much more hard than you think from the point where you enter in the game for the very first time. The competition is rude, a lot of people are already working on stunning weeds since a while ... it's not a piece of cake.

Not worth losing a month to sprouts when you could get clones for $20/ea

Not exactly. It's not worth to spend an half year to set a weed in your cash crop that no one is asking by pounds. More easy to get a clone of OGK or Blue Dream or any "other flavor of the year" ... because it will pay the bills fast and easier ^^

It really seems to me the growth in the first 2-4weeks is 90% DNA and 10% care

When you throw the seeds in an unworked raw soil, just as it like it's falling from the plant in natural environment. It can be the case. The 10% variation can be seasonal (rainy year, sunny year, animals etc ...), the genetic driving everything else.

In a fully artificial environment, indoor, it's a bit more complicated to set any absolute percentage like that. And per strain, not as a whole specy.

I’ve found when you work with some random poly seeds you get a lot of annoying traits that would’ve been eliminated by a breeder.

If you eliminate something, you're in the DNA engineering not longer in breeding. In breeding you're "streamlining" something by the averages to give more priority to an adverse expression, i simplify by you're unbalancing something in regard of something else in the core of a given equilibrium. Let the line survive years outdoor, and you will see fast that nothing was "erased". It's just a temporary mirage if you don't write the breeding plan for the grand sons of your grand sons.

I hope to have shared some stimulations

 

[PolyChucker]

Thanks for your in-depth response Fuel.
I’ll just have to keep selecting for the best plants and go from there. Anything I like I will keep veg clones and breed further.
Rating plants seems to be a question of values. I started working on a point system that will give a numerical rating. This is a semi-objective method but helps give clarity to the quality of the plant. One such example is potency. The plant gets 5 points if it’s very potent. I’ll take two puffs and if the effect is overwhelming that’s a 5. If it’s a noticeable effect that’s a 3. If it seems to do very little that’s a 1 or 2. I’ll resample a second time to try and get an accurate number. There are also points for any other desirable traits but less points available for lesser traits so they’re all weighted.

obviously the most important quality is the smoke. But many with the best smoke are also small and slow growing. I started this post trying to see if other people were in the same boat after breeding for best smoke and then trying to make the actual growing and breeding aspect better.

One group of bagseeds is better than my usual plants in all practical aspects - growth rate, resistance to pests etc. so I might work on this line for a while

 

[PolyChucker]

Unknown bagseed. 11.5 wks. Big one here is 39” tall. No neem spray - they seem resistant to spider mites and thrips and other pests. 5-1-1 fish fertilizer with every watering. I have 15 of these good ones and 3 runts, (one runt pictured left). Out of about 25 seeds

Sugar Kiss bagseed. About 15 seeds. 4 pretty normal plants though very small at 17” (also 11.5wks). Showing some signs of nutrient def. though improved with cal mag in the fish fertilizer.

 

[PolyChucker]

15.5wks on the bagseed. Seem to have the vigor and pest resistance I wanted. Hopefully the flower is good