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Advice wanted on feeding plan and bush/guerilla friendly nutrients.

laszlokovacs

Well-known member
I am growing my plants outdoors directly in the ground in holes amended with cheap compost combined with the native soil. I have been trying to think of nutrients to use that will work best and do not want to attract animals-some plants are caged, not all but I dont want any animals trying to dig up shit. It would seem then that a lot of organic/animal product fertilizers would be a no go because they attract animals. To get around this I am hoping to use a combination of organic and synthetic nutes but I have no experience so I am having trouble thinking of a feeding schedule/regimen. So far I have watered my plants once with a MiracleGro All purpose 24-8-16 and they have been in the ground 5 days.

I am considering a few types of nutrients, I think a bunch of the organic options are off the table. Thinking of doing a very straightforward approach to feeding, will try a two part regular synthetic feeding schedule either something close to the lucas formula or an all purpose + bloom booster approach. Here is a list of nutrients I have thought of using divided into whether they CAN or CANNOT be used outdoors without attracting animals. The area they are in has lots of vegetation and trees soil is fairly neutral ph and gets plenty of water through rain. Any nutrients would be mixed into well water that is potable and is fairly neutral with a ph in the high 6s.


CAN be used outside-
ORGANIC
-
Worm Castings
Bat Guano
Compost
Molasses
Brewed Teas made of grass/clippings/weeds/comfrey etc.
SYNTHETIC-
MiracleGro fertilizers i.e all purpose, bloom booster etc...
General Hydroponics flora series bottles 2part of 3part series
Jack's fertilizers either 20-20-20 or something else

CANNOT be used (without attracting animals)-
Blood Meal
Fish Emulsion (Neptune's Harvest etc)
Bone Meal
Chicken Manure
Espoma Gardentone/Jobe's organic tomato food granular fertilizers

Alfalfa Meal

Please add to it or correct me if I am mistaken about any of these fertilizers. If anyone knows or has any experience with feather meal or cow manure let me know whether or not they attract animals. Thanks!
 

f-e

Well-known member
Mentor
The ground is a food source. We add amendments to get it in shape for our purpose. However, that does mean we need to know what needs mending. Soil samples are your friend at maybe $50 and will pay for themselves as your plants will do better with a balanced food source.
Often people will have a particular element in abundance. If you use an all round feed on such land, it can become toxic. Clay soils are at real risk of this. While sand generally has little in it, and as it holds so little, needs regular applications.

Your starting point is knowing your soil. Sand, Loam or clay usually. Wet some and try to ball it up in your palms. Sand will be hopeless. Clay will ball up. Loam... well.. you know.

I have never had problems with things digging for blood fish and bone, but there was once signs of something having a good lick around. I tend to broadcast it over a wide area. Including the surrounding bush, as I want that to do well as cover. The varmints are then spoiled for choice. Walk about everywhere, but can't determine much beyond this dusting over everything.

I really can't recommend you give them anything, until soil type is established. It could be just poison. I have fried many plants in clay, using a chicken based all purpose that's just not suited to local conditions. Fine in the next county though.
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
Mentor
Amended with cheap compost combined with the native soil will do fine. If the plants are looking good you don't need anything. You stated the area they are in has lots of vegetation and trees, and soil is fairly neutral ph and gets plenty of water through the rain. Thats all you need and is kick-ass growing conditions. To activate the compost and keep the microbes happy you could add a little sugar as a top dressing and then mulch the plants. Don't push your plants, let them show you what they need before adding anything.

I have added stuff to outdoor plots and messed things up because the plants didn't need anything. If you have beautiful plants now, and they look healthy, just leave the soil alone. Happy plants are mulched plants. 😎
 

nono_fr

Well-known member

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laszlokovacs

Well-known member
Not surprised with the answers I'm getting. I had a feeling I was being a bit overzealous and there is decidedly food in the soil and plenty of organic matter and many worms in the soil. I do plan on feeding things at some point but I think you all are definitely right about needing more information to figure out what to feed. I am going to get some soil analysis done, I emailed the local extension office about submitting a sample and will hopefully send it in by next week. I have actually been looking to get soil testing done for my garden anyway so these answers convinced me to go ahead and just do that.
Your starting point is knowing your soil. Sand, Loam or clay usually. Wet some and try to ball it up in your palms. Sand will be hopeless. Clay will ball up. Loam... well.. you know.

I have never had problems with things digging for blood fish and bone, but there was once signs of something having a good lick around. I tend to broadcast it over a wide area. Including the surrounding bush, as I want that to do well as cover. The varmints are then spoiled for choice. Walk about everywhere, but can't determine much beyond this dusting over everything.
The soil is some form of silt loam probably fine for this. The patch of plants are surrounded by 2-3 foot tall ferns in a pretty lush clearing next to some woods. I was getting mixed answers searching online as to whether or not some of these fertilizers attracted animals although your tip makes a lot sense about spreading it in a wide area so I will do that if I end up using those fertilizers

Thats all you need and is kick-ass growing conditions. To activate the compost and keep the microbes happy you could add a little sugar as a top dressing and then mulch the plants. Don't push your plants, let them show you what they need before adding anything.

I have added stuff to outdoor plots and messed things up because the plants didn't need anything. If you have beautiful plants now, and they look healthy, just leave the soil alone. Happy plants are mulched plants. 😎
This is helpful, thank you. One plant has been there over a month and growing a tiny bit slowly, the other 10 were transplanted just about a week ago. I need to see how they settle in as the growing season only started 3 or so weeks ago. If I were to top dress some sugar how much/what kind would you recommend?
If you find something similar, it is good for guerilla .
That looks interesting, I cant seem to find something similar but from what I can see its some thing that adds/speeds up humus in soil? How do you use it when you grow?
 

nono_fr

Well-known member
How do you use it when you grow?
They are granules, and dissolve every time you water. It lasts a few months.

It is also sold by terralba on another brand - here the description by alchimia growshop :
Terralba's Soluble Bacteria are perfect to enhance the microbial life in the substrate, activating the composting process and facilitating its transformation into humus.This product is made in France by Marcel Mézy under the name of Bactériosol and is suitable for organic farming. It contains a mix of microbial life beneficial for cannabis plants plus 55 nutrients.
Thus, Terralba's bacteria improve both the rooting and the health of the plants, protecting the root system against pathogens. Bacteriosol is made of a concentrate of organic and mineral matter and a selection of composted vegetables.
These bacteria, already available in Alchimiaweb, allow a slow release of nutrients (around 2 months), thus being perfect for cannabis farming, either indoors or outdoors. Just put the bacteria on the surface of the soil before watering.

Terralba's Soluble Bacteria features:​

  • Suitable for organic farming according to rule CE834/2007
  • Origin: France (Marcel Mézy)
  • 2,8% total nitrogen (1% organic nitrogen), 2,3% phosphorous (P2O5), 1,6% potasium (K2O)
  • 35% organic matter. pH=8,4
  • Dosage: 40gr/m2 or 10gr/plant
 

f-e

Well-known member
Mentor
When I go cycling on forestry commission land, they set up courses that don't cross the fire break roads. They have a wheel wash station to use between runs. Limiting the cross contamination. It seems there is more than one healthy balance, and it's kind of tree dependent. In recent years, I have noticed more and more packs of dust at the DIY type outlets. Tests have found some have a symbiotic relationship with cannabis, and some are of no real use.

SouthernAG do a product with this in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_amyloliquefaciens
It's useful where the land is good, but you want extra protection against molds that can cause us problems.

It wouldn't hurt I don't think. Some canna based brand asks a whole lot more for a bottle with little in it. Overdose is not a good idea though, as it will grow a yeast like goo in hydro systems, that only h2o2 can really fix.
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
Mentor
This is hard to post but I'm going to post it anyway.

I had to try this and check it off the bucket list of experiments before I leave. This Sunflower plant only got peed on and nothing else. No watering just peed on, because I keep reading and hearing that urinating would act like fertilizer. I've wondered about this for years but I've never tried it until this year. I just step out and pee on the plant and yes it works very well as you can see. It's the tallest I have growing now. . 😎

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laszlokovacs

Well-known member
I think its incontrovertible that urine is indeed a fertilizer but I haven't done the uh *hands-on* research you have creeper. You could also extract the urea from your urine and make a 'real' fertilizer:) Probably more fun to just pee on the plants though...
 

laszlokovacs

Well-known member
Ok. I have obtained results from my soil test for the immediate area I currently have plants in. I would love to hear other's thoughts on nutrient needs given these results. Right off the bat I will say I am surprised by the lower than expected pH value of the soil. My earlier attempt to measure soil pH using a coffee filter with soil and well water were much higher around 6.5-7 pH. Additionally while I understand aluminum is problematic in soil at lower pH, it would seem they are rather high (another plot nearby had even larger values)- similarly the iron and manganese values seem far greater than the given 'optimum levels' and I am unsure as to what to make of this. Obviously it seems I will need to supply phosphorus for my plants based on these results and likely potassium and nitrogen to some extent as well. Never had any soil test done before so I dont really know how to react to these results yet. Broad strokes purposes is this looking like good/bad soil as is?

My plants are currently in the ground in holes filled with a 50/50 mixture of the soil tested above and cheap bagged compost I purchased. I'm hoping the compost will feed them at least a little bit until I can visit them again and feed/amend.

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goingrey

Well-known member
Ok. I have obtained results from my soil test for the immediate area I currently have plants in. I would love to hear other's thoughts on nutrient needs given these results. Right off the bat I will say I am surprised by the lower than expected pH value of the soil. My earlier attempt to measure soil pH using a coffee filter with soil and well water were much higher around 6.5-7 pH. Additionally while I understand aluminum is problematic in soil at lower pH, it would seem they are rather high (another plot nearby had even larger values)- similarly the iron and manganese values seem far greater than the given 'optimum levels' and I am unsure as to what to make of this. Obviously it seems I will need to supply phosphorus for my plants based on these results and likely potassium and nitrogen to some extent as well. Never had any soil test done before so I dont really know how to react to these results yet. Broad strokes purposes is this looking like good/bad soil as is?

My plants are currently in the ground in holes filled with a 50/50 mixture of the soil tested above and cheap bagged compost I purchased. I'm hoping the compost will feed them at least a little bit until I can visit them again and feed/amend.

View attachment 18726056
Seems like the aluminum is well in the common range, not so far off the average: https://www.alcanada.com/pdf/Tech_B...ns/533-Metal_Concentrations-Natural_Soils.pdf

Wouldn't worry about it.

Don't know what to think about the Manganese and Iron, are you seeing brown spots on the leaves?

Probably a 50/50 mix with bagged compost is just fine. For extra N and P maybe add some bone meal or chicken manure.
 

@peace

Well-known member
Ok. I have obtained results from my soil test for the immediate area I currently have plants in. I would love to hear other's thoughts on nutrient needs given these results. Right off the bat I will say I am surprised by the lower than expected pH value of the soil. My earlier attempt to measure soil pH using a coffee filter with soil and well water were much higher around 6.5-7 pH. Additionally while I understand aluminum is problematic in soil at lower pH, it would seem they are rather high (another plot nearby had even larger values)- similarly the iron and manganese values seem far greater than the given 'optimum levels' and I am unsure as to what to make of this. Obviously it seems I will need to supply phosphorus for my plants based on these results and likely potassium and nitrogen to some extent as well. Never had any soil test done before so I dont really know how to react to these results yet. Broad strokes purposes is this looking like good/bad soil as is?

My plants are currently in the ground in holes filled with a 50/50 mixture of the soil tested above and cheap bagged compost I purchased. I'm hoping the compost will feed them at least a little bit until I can visit them again and feed/amend.

View attachment 18726056
I see that you mention earlier in the thread that these plants are located near ferns and a forest. What type of forest and what heading (N, E, S, W) from that forest? Ferns typically only grow in shade and typically only appear inside of or on the North side of forests/ tree lines. I also ask because of your soil test. In my area at least it is rare to get a true 5.5 pH soil from a soil that also measures 16 CEC, but our local parent material is limestone and gypsum. The only time I have seen that, the soil sample was taken far too wet, which can impact pH. A CEC of 16 indicates there is likely a heavy clay content. Your soil is too acidic (6.2 -6.8 is ideal) according to the test but I don't necessarily trust the result.

The interpretation at the bottom is telling you most of what you need to know. You have virtually no P, was that composted manure that you put down? That will help a lot if so. The bone meal as goingrey mentioned is also a good idea.

An OM reading of 9.3% is very high, in a good way. Did you brush back/ remove native vegetation on the surface before taking the sample? Also how deep did you sample? There are standards in different areas. A common depth is 6" for many soil tests though. Overall you can work with this soil, if the pH reading is real, then you will want to add dolomitic lime. If you could post a picture of the area that may help put some context to the test. Is your area also typically sandy? It seems odd that they consider 1094 ppm ca as optimum, the same with magnesium.

Manganese becomes more available as the pH lowers and can get to toxic levels. Google "spectrum analytics manganese". They are a US lab and have a very good library with articles on different nutrients.

If this were my soil and the test was accurate, then I would add powdered dolomitic lime, bone meal, and an all purpose tomato fertilizer.
 

Ca++

Well-known member
High Mg makes for bushy plants. It's not really a problem. I have a high Mg site and like it.
Where you able to say you were growing drug type cannabis and want a high yield? I guess you told them something, as they have an idea what you want.
No Boron. It's not a very hip field then.
Calcium base saturation is low. 33 when 50-80 would be nice. Not sure why the chart then says it's optimum. It's not a canna chart is it?

That low Ca and P look like a good reason for bone meal. Then a basic 1-1-1 + micro's to address N and K and B.
When I say 1-1-1 I mean anything, such as 7-7-7. Just to get the numbers up a bit. It's the bone meal really fixing things.

If you used well water for the pH test, what was the well water pH.
 

laszlokovacs

Well-known member
Seems like the aluminum is well in the common range, not so far off the average: https://www.alcanada.com/pdf/Tech_B...ns/533-Metal_Concentrations-Natural_Soils.pdf

Wouldn't worry about it.
Thank you for the reassurance! I think I was just put off by the column labeled "optimum range" and as a noob/layperson the idea of 'high' levels of metals in soil sounds alarming to my unscientific brain. I was only able to check on the plants 10 days after transplanting but they seemed happy and no discoloration/spotting/weird growth or anything so i may wait to see how they respond. I have also fed 2x 10 days apart using miraclegro 24-8-16 in water. I will visit them next week and hopefully weekly after that. Bone Meal/Chicken Manure sounds very promising, I was hesitant at first to use them for fear of attracting critters but I will likely do what @f-e suggested upthread when using them.

High Mg makes for bushy plants.
Where you able to say you were growing drug type cannabis and want a high yield?

That low Ca and P look like a good reason for bone meal. Then a basic 1-1-1 + micro's to address N and K and B.
When I say 1-1-1 I mean anything, such as 7-7-7. Just to get the numbers up a bit. It's the bone meal really fixing things.

If you used well water for the pH test, what was the well water pH.

Thats good news as I would certainly love to harvest bushy plants. I was mainly concerned about Manganese but as @Peace helped me understand this can be mitigated through raising pH if necessary.

No I did not disclose to the testing people that I want to grow monstrous trees with a ton killer herb lol. I got a standard home garden soil analysis test from a university and selected the vegetable garden option as I felt it was the closest thing (I also got a soil test for my actual vegetable garden done as well) there was no option for cannabis recommendations- this is decidedly not a canna chart! I could probably ask them via email but I think people here have a much better idea of what should be done for cannabis and there is zero mention of the word cannabis on their soil testing page(s).

I will definitely use bone meal. When you refer to a 1:1:1 do you mean a granular dry amendment or water-soluble synthetic or would either work? Is it possible to use some thing like a Jack's all purpose fertilizer as a topdress around plants or would that be too strong even if used in very small amounts?

Can I expect to supply all my boron/other micros through something like neptunes harvest (website claims 2.5ppm boron) and typical organic dry amendments? I have espoma garden-tone and jobes tomato feed that I plan to use unless they are not sufficient.

Been a few months since pH testing well water with drops. Will need to check/double check it again but last I recall it was almost exactly 7.0 straight from the kitchen sink. This was probably what messed up my attempt to measure/estimate soil pH earlier.
 

troutman

Seed Whore
I've used cow manure and bone meal in a guerilla setting with no issues. The secret with stuff like bone meal is to broadcast all over the place like your feeding a lawn vs feeding just where your plants are. The reason is most animals will give up if they have to dig up a field and broadcasting will reduce the chances of them finding your plants.
 

laszlokovacs

Well-known member
I see that you mention earlier in the thread that these plants are located near ferns and a forest. What type of forest and what heading (N, E, S, W) from that forest? Ferns typically only grow in shade and typically only appear inside of or on the North side of forests/ tree lines.
These plants are in a clearing made many decades ago a few thousand sq ft on the edge of acres of woods. North and to the east of the site is a large pasture/field and to the northwest the forest continues. Many acres of woods/forest in the surrounding areas to the south. Here is a blurry aerial view plants are in the northern area of the circle. This is a forest in the northeast near new England. Not too good with trees but the forest is largely made up of hardwood trees (fair bit of maples) as well birch and a lot of what I think are pine trees or some type of needley/coniferous trees. The clearing is basically entirely covered in ferns with a few brambles- This picture of the plot was taken while clearing before transplanting. You can see some of last years weeds/fern stems that are still on the ground. You can see some of the trees in the background although a bit blurry.

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In my area at least it is rare to get a true 5.5 pH soil from a soil that also measures 16 CEC, but our local parent material is limestone and gypsum. The only time I have seen that, the soil sample was taken far too wet, which can impact pH. A CEC of 16 indicates there is likely a heavy clay content. Your soil is too acidic (6.2 -6.8 is ideal) according to the test but I don't necessarily trust the result.

An OM reading of 9.3% is very high, in a good way. Did you brush back/ remove native vegetation on the surface before taking the sample? Also how deep did you sample? There are standards in different areas. A common depth is 6" for many soil tests though. Overall you can work with this soil, if the pH reading is real, then you will want to add dolomitic lime. If you could post a picture of the area that may help put some context to the test. Is your area also typically sandy? It seems odd that they consider 1094 ppm ca as optimum, the same with magnesium.

Manganese becomes more available as the pH lowers and can get to toxic levels. Google "spectrum analytics manganese". They are a US lab and have a very good library with articles on different nutrients.

5.5 Seems a bit low although not impossible the other area i tested came back at 4.9 . This area often gets a lot of water and the ground stays wet however during the spring/summer the ferns and surrounding vegetation drink it up and it is relatively normal. I tried my best to take a good sample following the instructions given. I gathered soil from the top 1-6 inches using a trowel to slice a section down and took soil from a few spots as per the instructions I was given but the sample may have been slightly more biased towards the top few inches. I pulled out the native vegetation by hand 10 days before taking the sample and was sure to dry for several days and remove almost all roots in the sample i gathered before submitting. I could probably have taken a better or slightly deeper soil sample but I think the results are relatively accurate as is.

Thank you for that suggestion. I found that spectrum analytics page and interestingly enough it stated that soil pH of 5.5 or lower can often cause manganese toxicity- very helpful information I will need to keep that in mind as I observe the plants.

If this were my soil and the test was accurate, then I would add powdered dolomitic lime, bone meal, and an all purpose tomato fertilizer.

Great! I will strongly consider doing this. Bone meal seems like a universal recommendation! I have some jobes tomato feed I wanted to use anyway so will go ahead and add it. All these can be top dressed on my plants correct? Lime would additionally be spread out over the area correct?
Thanks for the help!
 

laszlokovacs

Well-known member
I've used cow manure and bone meal in a guerilla setting with no issues. The secret with stuff like bone meal is to broadcast all over the place like your feeding a lawn vs feeding just where your plants are. The reason is most animals will give up if they have to dig up a field and broadcasting will reduce the chances of them finding your plants.
Thanks mr. trout- @f-e recommended this approach as well. Glad that I will be able to use organics on these babies! Do you think scattering these ferts in and around a 10 foot radius around all 11 plants is enough or should I aim to cover something like 2x the area of the total plot (currently around 200 sq feet probably)?
 
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