I say give a pass, with some climates and varieties tomatoes just water stress.
Some tasty looking vegetables there IMHO.
Check out this on -NPK ratios- Canadian University study
- Thread starter Tomatoesonly
- Start date
Some tasty looking vegetables there IMHO.
led05
Chasing The Present
Here I'll help you out......
"Hey Ledo, how come a small % of your tomatoes have cracks on tops"
"Cuz I'm a one man show & Gentleman farmer (look up definition please) and they sit on the vine way past they should & often"
I walk outside, see what needs harvesting and harvest, this happens all the time, those are just a few days of many each year pictured, rinse repeat... and this is not my career friend, not by a long shot..... Just a dudes backyard, exactly as I said in a large neighborhood surrounded by others grass.....
Can we see what the queens of Marietta Grow please. all your stuff, cannabis too - thank you...?
any tomato will crack, especially big heirlooms will when sitting on the vines too long, in the sun when it's weeks on end 90's + and dry, always..... Give a pass, lol....TY I guess
Gentleman Farmer " a man who farms mainly for pleasure rather than for profit."
and trust me, we have so much abundance I can't even give enough away, my compost pit gets fed very well... Next year though my kids will be old enough I've built them a stand to sell to our neighbors so they can learn a bit of business on the fly...
Man are folk wound up tight in Marietta Ohio...
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Hiddenjems
Well-known member
I’m just jabbing, 99% of everything looked delicious.Here I'll help you out......
"Hey Ledo, how come a small % of your tomatoes have cracks on tops"
"Cuz I'm a one man show & Gentleman farmer (look up definition please) and they sit on the vine way past they should & often"
I walk outside, see what needs harvesting and harvest, this happens all the time, those are just a few days of many each year pictured, rinse repeat... and this is not my career friend, not by a long shot..... Just a dudes backyard, exactly as I said in a large neighborhood surrounded by others grass.....
Can we see what the queens of Marietta Grow please. all your stuff, cannabis too - thank you...?
any tomato will crack, especially big heirlooms will when sitting on the vines too long, in the sun when it's weeks on end 90's + and dry, always..... Give a pass, lol....TY I guess
Gentleman Farmer " a man who farms mainly for pleasure rather than for profit."
and trust me, we have so much abundance I can't even give enough away, my compost pit gets fed very well... Next year though my kids will be old enough I've built them a stand to sell to our neighbors so they can learn a bit of business on the fly...
Man are folk wound up tight in Marietta Ohio...
I’m not even from Marietta. We drive hours to go there for tomatoes. It’s a flat flood plain of the Ohio river that’s constantly very humid without getting very hot.
Ca++
Well-known member
In trying to work with this study, I have realised some crucial info is missing. There is nothing related to water or feed uptake. No idea of top up volume, or changing nutrient concentration. In the feed or tissue. I can't estimate based on temperature or RH as both are also missing. Perhaps a put to much faith in such data, but with K being thought of as a major factor in water movement, and water movement being how some things make it from tank to plant, I see water uptake as important. Many a grower lowers EC when it's hot, so they don't eat too much, then raises EC when it's cool, and water transport is lower.
I feel, to really understand their grow, I need that bit more info about water usage. General environment. Things that a commercial study should be looking at.
I feel, to really understand their grow, I need that bit more info about water usage. General environment. Things that a commercial study should be looking at.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Oh... you want a REAL study then. Most studies I read these days are very similar in missing vital info for a full picture.
shishkaboy
>>>>Beanie Man<<<<
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Cactus Squatter
Well-known member
Wowza that’s a healthy looking harvest for sure! Beautiful work!
When I looked at different studies from different labs, I realized that they never publish all the data. And sometimes the article does not describe important nuances and it is not possible to get the desired result. This reminds me of how I was looking for information for my essays on global warming to be published at https://edubirdie.com/examples/global-warming/ and also faced an acute lack of information. It seems to be a popular topic, there are many scientific articles. But there is almost no actual data from scientific research in the public domain. I think this is normal, because if someone pays for research, then he wants to keep some secrets. But understanding the information can be very difficult.
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Old Uncle Ben
Well-known member
Frontiers | Optimisation of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium for Soilless Production of Cannabis sativa in the Flowering Stage Using Response Surface Analysis
Following legalisation, cannabis has quickly become an important horticultural crop in Canada and increasingly so in other parts of the world. However, due t...www.frontiersin.org
I don't know what to think about it. Lots of info, and some of it is exactly opposite of what I thought was fact. In particular the amount of N they ran during flowering. I always heard you'd grow nothing but fluff garbage bud with that much nitrogen.
You've been brainwashed, as have 100's of others, into believing the prevailing myths found in cannabis forums which have been carefully engineered by vendors who sell all their "cannabis specific" crap.
I have been preaching the need for using plenty of N during flowering to retain healthy productive leaves for decades on a dozen cannabis forums. Ironically, I just posted about hitting an indica with a 25-5-15 about 6 weeks into flowering. https://www.icmag.com/threads/yello...em-with-a-high-n-food.18126823/#post-18341421
Thanks for sharing. Myths need to be put away like the high Mg, Ca, flushing, leafing drills, etc. It's just a bunch of cannabis internet rubbish.
It's leaves that produce buds, not bloom foods.
I also grow tomatoes, all year in the greenhouse, and tropical fruits - dragon fruit, avocados, annona (cherimoya), citrus, maters, herbs, mangos, etc. Been seriously grafting the finest varieties to rootstock since I erected the greenhouse in 2012. My trees get Osmocote Indoor-Outdoor Plus, 15-9-12, as did my cannabis garden this year.
Have been harvesting 100's of citrus for months. Got 223 Meyer lemons off one tree for example. 4 varieties of oranges including blood, limes, etc. My avocados are creamy, rich. Kona Sharwil, one of Hawaii's best. Small seed, creamy.
Moro blood orange, pure juice, has a background taste of berries. I eat a freshly picked orange every morning.
Uncle Ben
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Ca++
Well-known member
6 weeks later... I found it
That's a bigger outdoor study with the same findings. Higher N than typical, and K has little relevancy
That's a bigger outdoor study with the same findings. Higher N than typical, and K has little relevancy
Tomatoesonly
Active member
Any chance you can break that down a bit for simpletons like myself? I understand PPM of liquid feed. I don't know lbs per acre and all that.
What did they ultimately conclude?
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
It looks like deficient soil was helped the most by application of nitrogen.
I noticed:
Zero tissue samples for nitrogen.
Zero cannabinoid results.
Zero stem/leaf/flower ratio info.
Another incomplete and mostly useless study. *sigh*
Ca++
Well-known member
Well they only looked at N and K. Nowhere responded to different K rates. One site didn't respond to N either. They seem to of made no other comment on that site. They did about 6 sites, and the report concentrates on 3 of them.
Looking at N, as K didn't matter, 1lb/a =0.5ppm So thier maximum dose of 200lb was 100ppm of N. That dose is making some nice looking bushes. Books on hemp seed production suggest 100-150lb so I see why they chose 200lb as there high dose. It looks like they could of gone higher, but I don't know if the weather there would support the 150ppm+ that indoor grows might have. There are also the other conciderations with farming, such as how far you can really go with amending the whole range of things plants need. Which with indoor hydro, is no issue. I like their 100ppm/200lb bushes. I think they did alright with these tests.
Ca++
Well-known member
The soil had to be deficient. How would you test at 25ppm, if the soil already had 50ppm. It's like hydro guys using RO to take out everything, to decide what goes in. Plus how many fields are not deficient for growing such plants, year after year.
I noticed N tissue samples taken every 2 weeks
Cannabinoid testing at clear, milky and amber was done, in a different report.
Dry bud weight was given, at different N levels, showing a pretty linear response. As it was a floral study. Do you need twig weight? What are you selling Doug?
We won't ever see a single study give answers. Here we saw a group of studies. One site saw no response to N. Another saw a 1:1 response. Another a Quadratic response. This shows that other forces are at play. We are still looking at NPK studies, feeling P is lacking information. There are no sufficiency ranges for things like Zn for our crop. We have to look to other crops, which is a poor substitute. A least here, we see N at a few different sites, all done by the same study group. Put it beside the topics hydro test results. You become the academic, sifting through all the data, the data collectors can give you. This thread had half a dozen reports of N being good and K being marginal at best.
Our bloom foods decrease N and increase K. Does that seem right.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Edit... too early today for me
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Dr.Dutch
Active member
Hey guys, first of all, hello to everyone. This is my first post here, I have been active in other forums before.
Regarding the study from the first post: It has been discussed before, and I took a closer look at it a few days ago and noticed some things. I am particularly critical of the test nutrient solutions and the graphs derived from them.
Basically, GPT also sees the analysis critically.
In addition, with the few data points, we do not even have enough for these three graphs. Some corner point data are missing, which they then interpreted from the 16 test solutions. For example, only one test was carried out with 20 P.
If we now look at other studies (North Carolina and Utah State University), we can see, in my opinion, that phosphorus at 40 or 60 ppm is far too much.
Sustainable Cannabis Nutrition: Elevated root-zone phosphorus significantly increases leachate P and does not improve yield or quality
Hemp Leaf Tissue Nutrient Ranges: Refinement of Reference Standards for Floral Hemp
Utah Hydroponic Solutions
In addition, there are also some very high Ca and Cl values in their tests. Overall, the paper provides, in my opinion, no useful information. There are many nice graphics, but they don't say anything.
Do you all see it the same way when you take a closer look, or did I make a mistake somewhere?
Regarding the study from the first post: It has been discussed before, and I took a closer look at it a few days ago and noticed some things. I am particularly critical of the test nutrient solutions and the graphs derived from them.
Basically, GPT also sees the analysis critically.
In addition, with the few data points, we do not even have enough for these three graphs. Some corner point data are missing, which they then interpreted from the 16 test solutions. For example, only one test was carried out with 20 P.
If we now look at other studies (North Carolina and Utah State University), we can see, in my opinion, that phosphorus at 40 or 60 ppm is far too much.
Sustainable Cannabis Nutrition: Elevated root-zone phosphorus significantly increases leachate P and does not improve yield or quality
Hemp Leaf Tissue Nutrient Ranges: Refinement of Reference Standards for Floral Hemp
Utah Hydroponic Solutions
In addition, there are also some very high Ca and Cl values in their tests. Overall, the paper provides, in my opinion, no useful information. There are many nice graphics, but they don't say anything.
Do you all see it the same way when you take a closer look, or did I make a mistake somewhere?
Cerathule
Well-known member
So you did tissue sample analysis every 3 days but you cannot show some pics of your plants from flower week 1, 2, 3 etc ?!? Though you are experimenting with crop steering?
I'd really like to see your documentation but you will not publish it as you don't have it. It's just been a defensive move to change the subject when you don't show pics (the status of your plants will give many infos out, and no, noone here wants to locate your IP etc)
That's such an illogical response I don't even know what to respond to this WTF! It is you YOU who brought the topic of crop steering up, not the person you replied to. And the reason for wanting to see your plants is different, unrelated to crop steering. And then to present a rethorical proof that crop steering exists by photoperiodically initiating flowering is also WTF Jesus....
Old Uncle Ben
Well-known member
I don't over think this nutritional biz, it's second nature to me for starts, nor do I consider some of the studies relevant to what I want to do - grow a few healthy plants. Been using Osmocote Indoor-Outdoor Plus 15-9-12, 5-6 month, and it's doing a fine job easy peasy......as it does on all my plant material whether it be field grown commercial tree seedlings, tropical fruit trees, new plantings of vineyards, veggies, herbs, etc.
As you can see here with folks throwing everything they can at their faves because someone said "it works", this stuff can drive you crazy. Take Ca for example - my cannabis gets very little if any. Well water is high in Ca bicarbs and occasionally I throw in a cup or two of gypsum into my custom soil mix, but that's it. I doubt if cannabis grows in limey type soils, so it naturally doesn't need a lot of this secondary element. At least I don't worry about it like some.
Hope to wrap up this indica (Monkey Balls) within a couple of weeks.
Uncle Ben
As you can see here with folks throwing everything they can at their faves because someone said "it works", this stuff can drive you crazy. Take Ca for example - my cannabis gets very little if any. Well water is high in Ca bicarbs and occasionally I throw in a cup or two of gypsum into my custom soil mix, but that's it. I doubt if cannabis grows in limey type soils, so it naturally doesn't need a lot of this secondary element. At least I don't worry about it like some.
Hope to wrap up this indica (Monkey Balls) within a couple of weeks.
Uncle Ben
Ca++
Well-known member
Dood. I see a notification you have quoted me, and my heart sinks. It's always the same. Some disagreement because you don't understand what you read. Your memory is good, and will get you through uni. Everything you add that's original, is generally a mistake though. I have already offered the info I'm not meant to have. I have also explained why it's no use to anyone. In a post you laugh at 5 weeks later, but others love. You are not in the crowd of peers I talk to, or the group that want help. You don't recognise when you are proven wrong. You are blinkered, and as yet, I'm not sure you have ever grown anything decent yourself.
You are here looking for recognition. You would like to be at the top of the ladder, but you are not climbing any higher by trying to push people off. Your worth is fetching good links for us to read ourselves.
I'm happy for you to of placed yourself beside a quote of mine in this manner. I know who will like the fact you had a crack at me, and who will see your ill fitting opinion. I'm just going to leave it there, as I feel you have said enough yourself. Though you will never actually see what a muppet you really are.
Ca++
Well-known member
Good entrance.
I also had thoughts revolving around the spread of test groups. I wondered if some of these groups reflect growers they visit off-site. As there isn't the even spread of tests I expected.
I also looked at the Ca and Cl values, and tried to think outside my box to explain them as some sort of balancing. It made me wonder about my own mixing, as I never use an app or program. My calculator is made by Casio. I couldn't draw a conclusion, but thought I would come back to this, with a proper app. To see how one adjustment by me, might lead to others being made by the app. I feel I'm missing something. I can't even see which element the Cl might be coming with. Though as Cl is tolerated over quite some range, it's an easy way of adding single elements, without rocking the cart.
I also noticed that their 180/60/200 gives an EC of 1.9
Most people given such a feed in a bottle, would dose around 65% anyway. Giving perhaps 120/40/125 which is just normal except for that K figure. Ca85 Mg30. Grouped as 125 85 30 a lot of the older farmers would see a fair ratio. The numbers are not wild when scaled back, and resemble some coco feeds. So maybe scaling these more typical figures back up to 180/60/200 is just an indication of expectations. In a great room (perhaps needing co2) is it that much of a stretch?
I have worked that 120/40/125 almost. Flowering with grow feed. I was hitting the mark, so I'm not sure what the 180/60/200 room would actually do. By my standards, there just isn't room for a 50% improvement. Though I did work backwards from their figures and see a 900g per meter suggestion. So perhaps I need to try harder.
I wouldn't say there was no useful information in that study. It could tell us more, but there is data to interpret. The stand out fact of which, is the weak response to K.
Your interest in P tests of lower amounts, isn't their direction. They want to go higher in the future. I expect they will disprove the high P advice often seen. They did do 4 40ppm studies though, and that one 20ppm study. Which doesn't ignore the papers that often don't pass 40ppm.
Welcome to the forum.
