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Old 12-11-2009, 12:10 AM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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True Aeroponic Grow with Adv Mist System/UFO 90

Edited 5/10/2012

The purpose of this journal is to help you decide whether True Aeroponic Growing (TAG) can be reduced to High Pressure Aeroponics (HPA). The difference is that in my hpa I do not use an accumulator, solenoids, or < 1 second timer. I postulated that since THPA is the 'best' then by coming close, I can get similar results. I have included my missteps, from assembling the hardware to caring for the plants, so that you can avoid them and reap the rewards.

TAG 2.0 Introduction

Some 10 years ago TAG pioneers began to transition NASA's research for feeding astronauts to mj. TAG is a system (or set of systems) that focuses on optimizing everything inside the root chamber- space around each root, optimizing the delivery of nutrients using a combination of high pressure (>50psi) and low flow mist heads to atomize the nutrients (20~80 microns), making them easy to ingest, RH (relative humidity) and feeding frequencies; all to develop bigger, fatter, tastier fruits/veggies/herbs in the shortest time, using the fewest amount of nutrients and the least amount of waste.

Although confusing (such is the nature of trail blazing), I read the 8 -10 year old 53 page TAG thread 4-5 times.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=15115&highlig ht=on%2Foff+times+mist+fog

My Journey to TAG Enlightenment

In early July 09, (with the blind leading the blind- me) I put together my first DWC system; drip/bubble using a single 18G tote, a low pressure pump and a 15 min on/off timer that ran 24/7, recycling my nutes, I lost 2 grows due to root rot.

I dropped the drip, salvaged 2 plants- one a 6" runt. I replaced the drip with ultrasonic fog (UF); I went through 3 discs and two transformers before learning that they cannot tolerate >400 ppm! FYI UFs provide 5-10 micron of dry fog which is all but useless for growing beyond rooting clones, which can easily be done with a buubler anyway.

Although my plant was a 2 ft cola, the roots looked like a tight ball of twine. Looking back, I now know they were barely functioning- somehow my plant survived my ignorance.

I added a spraybar to my low pressure pump, and a variety of mist heads.

After all this tale chasing, thankfully,
I came across the TAG thread

Within DAYS of incorporating EXL heads (+/- 50 micron) I began to see new roots that resembled fishbones; a prime indicator that the root environment had improved, but I was still using a lp pump.


The plant responded with considerable new bud and root growth. A couple weeks later, thinking I was 5-7 days from harvest, I replaced the low pressure pump/UF/spray bar with a high pressure set up that I purchased from Reptile Basics (8800 Aquatec pump, fog head assemblies, tubing…). The money I pissed away on the lp experiment would easily have paid to go hp in the beginning- but I didn't know.

In the next two weeks, the bud size doubled, and trics exploded. I finished with 1.2oz of killer weed, saving me $350-400, or 25% of my grow investment.

Aeroponics is Misunderstood

Many think that as long as roots are hanging in space that they are using the most advanced aeroponic grow technique.
True Aeroponic Growing does no begin until you incorporate a deep cycle timer, high pressure pump and mist heads that will atomize the nutrients into a soft fog like mist that gently falls onto the awaiting roots.


These roots developed under high pressure, but not ideal feed times. At first I used a crude timer whose minimum feed time was ~ 25 seconds! Today, my feed intervals during early veg ~is 4 seconds on with a 3-3.5 minute pause- this is not a misprint. If you compare the above root photo to any roots grown using low pressure (or DWC), it should be obvious why hpa is better.

Note that the roots are fluffy and airy, with many layers of fishbone roots. Ideally, each bone should be filled with peach fuzz (think pipe cleaners). The fuzz provides more surface area for microbes to attach. Assuming other important elements are properly controlled like; lighting, air circulation, relative humidity, reservoir temps, pH and nutrient strength, you are assured of growing healthy, disease-free, phat nuggz in the shortest amount of time; typically 20-30% faster with 20-30% greater yield, using far fewer nutrients. Today (May 2012) I am not so convinced

Due to the advances in equipment, and the collective TAG growing experience, I call my version...

TAG 2.0


You can assemble a TAG system with just a few basic tools. Maybe a month into this journal, I was contacted by a fellow grower who introduced me to the concept of pressurized accumulator tank. These tanks hold the nutes under pressure, and deliver fully atomized nutrients in under one second! SWEET but you need a timer capable of sub one second "ON" intervals.

As a personal use grower, I am trying to get close to what Advanced TAG does, without adding the additional hardware and complexity, however, it is most def worth investigating.


Feeding Schedule

In order to provide < 4 second feed times (24/7!), you will need to invest in a digital timer. The Sentinel DRT/MDT 1 are good choices, unless you plan on using an accumulator, at which point you want a timer accurate to one-half second.

Sentinel Timer

Edit 10/15/2011. FYI:
As all my growing lessons, this one was learned the hard way. Let's begin with that for an expensive timer it sorely lacks a status button so you can check all events.

I have been struggling with wilted plants every morning, and little to no runoff. This I was blaming on the small DMfit filter clogging with a micro-colony (which it was) but I resolved that last week, by adding the irrigation filter inside the rez, but still awoke to extreme wilted plants. The roots were not getting fed during lights off. Checked both filters, they were clean. WTF?

3/4 plants have 'recovered' but the roots are mostly dried out, and totally dry every morning, meaning the roots have lost most of their ability to feed the plants. The promise of HPA was not happening.

Looking back, I sent my previous MDT 1 back for repair. I never thought to check the on/off light settings, thinking it was automatically 24/7. WRONG.

It occurred to me to review the directions, Turns out the timer can be set for DAY, NIGHT or 24 HOURS. It was preset for DAY, meaning the plants were not getting fed during lights off.

This problem severely set plant growth back. I quickly put together a F & D rig from parts on hand, and moved the wilted plants. They recovered pretty quickly, and outperformed the ones I put back in hpa by a wide margin.

Hopefully, this is the last of the major HPA issues, that has ruined 2 grows.


STRAINS & METHODS

TAG is ideal for short plants, autoflower, SOG, 12/12 and, cloning. You can't grow trees unless you use something like 55G rain barrels outdoors or under very high ceilings with tons of lighting

ROOTS

A Zen Moment: If you want to grow big- think small!

"You are not feeding the roots, you are feeding
microbes that colonize on them!"

In a healthy aero environment, beneficial microbes colonize on the roots. It is they that consume the nutes, which they break down to feed the plant. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Clearly, the more surface area your roots have, the more microbes that can colonize to feed your plants.

Microbes do not/cannot eat much per feeding. Longer feed times drenches the roots, which slows down the entire process.

One of the many benefits of HPA is that no grow medium (beyond the starter cube for seeds) is needed! Eliminating the grow medium eliminates the potential for salt build up, which will toxify the plant and roots.

Roots need ample room and space between so the atomized mist can do its' thing. Think minimum 1 cft per root system

Rez temps between 60-65°F holds more oxygen. How critical is this?

During the recent 2 week <45 degree weather, my plants went into hibernation because the room remained below 50 degrees.

Assuming you are on point with everything, during veg, the roots develop into thick pony tails. Once you go 12/12, the plant shifts into bud production. The collective root mass looks like pom-poms. It is critical that each root system has sufficient space around it for the atomized nutrients to circulate freely. Think Dark Side of the Moon. If only half the root mass is getting misted, your plants will not grow to their full potential. Place the mist heads up high and aim them in between the roots to get proper circulation. IF your root chamber is bigger than 30G you might want 2-4 mist heads- one on each side.

Humidity

Recently, I was presented with a pdf document titled Understanding Humidity Control in Greenhouses. It's a pdf file and I can't figure out how to load it here, so that it will open.

Reading it, I came across two graphs one on Vapor Pressure Deficit and another Quality Problems Due to Humidity that shows what can happen when the humidity is either too low, or too high. I quickly added a humidifier and within 5 days the buds began to fatten up, and a lot more trichome development. Having waited so long to realize the problem could well effect my total yield.

Quality Problems Due to Humidity

Too Low
Dry Tip
Wilting
Small Leaves
Stunted Plants
Spider Mites
Leaf Curl

Too High
Oedema
Edge Burn (Guttation) Soft Growth Mineral Deficiencies Disease Outbreaks

Chose your strains wisely!


A 3 foot plant from seed will develop massive 3 foot long roots. Such roots need to be suspended in air, with ample room around them for the fogged nutes swirl and fall upon. I have learned to trim my roots, which produces more roots, never letting them reach the bottom.

Due to a considerable difference in the runoff pH and PPMs during bloom cycle, you do not want roots to reach and collect on the bottom, where they absorb this now toxic runoff.

Height: Accounting for a 3 foot plant and 3 ft root, drainage, and lights, you need a good 8 ft, unless you SCROG/LST. TAG should be killer for SoG/SCROG.
My 18G totes are only 15" deep, in just 35 days, the roots were over 2 feet long and gathering on the bottom, which turns TAG to FAG- Faux Aeroponic Grow. defeating the purpose and setting the stage for disease and rot.

NUTES

A major benefit to TAG is that the plants only require a small amount of nutrients per feed cycle and very low ppms needed to grow healthy plants:8 x 2.5- 3 ft plants in late bloom, consume less than one gallon of nutes per day. And they only need 200-400ppm during veg; 3/11 edit: 400- 600 bloom- NO MORE! This is due to the efficiency created by atomized nutes.

Recycle vs Drain to Waste (D2W)

Recycling nutes back to the rez is a BAD IDEA!

Testing ppm/pH of my run-off/waste in mid-bloom, pH is 3-5 points higher (5.9 in my rez- 6.4 waste); and ppms are off the chart- 850 in the rez- 2000+ in the waste. That is toxic! Plus many of the nutes have been taken up by the plant, the left overs are out of balance. This is why DWC typically runs into nute deficiencies, and lock out caused by the imbalanced NPK ratios

One of the many benefits of TAG/HPA is how little nutes are needed. This allows you to D2W in good conscience. I dump the rest in my garden, lawn...

MY CURRENT SET UP

Reptile Basics Mist System

Thinking more is better, I upgraded to RBs Quad heads (0.9gph X 4= 3.6gph). I replaced it with a double (1.8gph), still way too much mist for the size of my Rubbermaid Root Chamber (pod). A single 0.9gph mist head is all you need when it is properly placed, unless you are running 4 X 4 or greater tables. All you want is a delicate mist- just enough to moisten the roots when it falls. Edit 5/12. I now use 30 G tote, with 2 x 2 head misters on opposite sides, but will change this to 3 single heads to improve coverage.

Does the Timer Matter?

Hell Yes. Do not buy a DNe or ICG timer! The lowest setting is 25 seconds. Your roots need less than 4 seconds . during early veg One a decent root mass develops begin dialing back to ~ 1 second on/1.5m off (less than 1 sec with an accumulator). More than that will soak the roots, causing them to stop feeding until they dry out enough. Not believing this myself, I went from 25 seconds to 5. The fishbone roots began to grow like crazy, but did not fill in with fuzzies until I reduced the time to <2 seconds! And it's the fuzzies that you are striving for,
Grow Medium

Aero does not require any holding medium: no hydroton/ rockwool/S2G/coco choir..., other than what you start your seedlings in. However, you will need something to support the plant. I use 1.5" PVC couplers + small net pots. The inside of the PVC coupler has a lip that holds the net pot in place. *** There are at least 4 different types of PVC couplers. They all look alike until you examine them closely. Any of them are fine if you are cloning, BUT when starting seedlings, you need the one with shortest thread area and the widest thread area mouth. I found a PVC coupler with very short threads and a locking collar at Lowes/HD. This solves two problems, easier penetration by the mist and locking collar stabilizes the plant.

Rock Wool (RW) starter cubes fit perfectly inside the couplers, but I find them problematic in that they hold too much moisture. I cut them in half vertically, which allows developing roots to exit faster. I have found putting a layer of hydroton between the starter cube and the net pot allows for faster drainage + the hydroton holds enough moisture to attract the roots.

Once the plant gets heavy, you will need to use neoprene pucks to keep it from falling through the coupler!

68 Days From Seed

Several of my plants roots are 30+" long. As soon as they hit the bottom of my root chamber, the full benefit of TAG was compromised.

Things I Learned So Far

* Knowing when to feed, is as important as what to feed.

* Use one 18G tote per 3 ft plant, or 2 x 2ft cola types.

* The pump prefers 3+ G of nutes in reserve. I use 35 pound kitty litter containers (tall with a small footprint) to maintain pressure! During bloom you will lose 3-4 G a week due to evaporation, and consumption. Make up enough to cover evap and consumption for a week. You might need 7-10G once you flip

* Roots grow incredibly big, and ridiculously fast.

Each root system should have > 1 cft
of space for mist to swirl around

Stay tuned! Updates will appear within the above text.

Mid- September 2010. I just started my 3rd grow using Lowryder/Bubblegum cross. 2 ft plants with minimal side branching.

Mid Nov update. Lost all but one because I did not cut the RW cube in half. They got root rot and died. New batch started 2 days ago using S2G cubes.

Also just bought a Quantum Bad Boy (T 5- 8 bulbs ~ 400 watts) This journal is on another medijuana site. You might find it by googling my UN.

T5 Bulbs: Aquarium bulbs provide LED like spectrums and provide significantly brighter light. Goolge LED without LEDs My T 5 Grow

21st Century Flood & Drain

As I mentioned, I salvaged some clones (when I had the timer problem) by trowing together a F & D rig. Since I had an 18G Rubbermaid tote handy, I used it, even though it is >5xs deeper than a typical F & D table. This has turned out to be a huge advantage. I put the clones in 4" net pots filled in with hydroton. To stabilize them in the tote, I added a bunch of lava rock, which is fast draining, but holds some nutes in the crevices which keeps the roots moist between floods. This ave me the idea to flood more often, similar to hpa. Eventually I settled on flooding hourly. The growth is explosive. Doing a side by side now using Air Pots. It is outperforming my hpa by a good margin.

I may wind up mothballing the hpa since this is so much easier and cheaper to start with, BUT, it was hpa that inspired me to develop this modified F & D, hence 21st Century Flood & Drain

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Old 12-20-2009, 12:18 AM
Update one week later
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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Join Date: 09-23-2009
Posts: 5029
I moved the 10 best plants into 2 @18G totes (5 per), seems like too few, but I am in anticipation of phat pom-poms. Currently using one quad fog head per tote. I drilled a single drain hole in the bottom of each tote. This allows 100% of the fogged nutes to exit the totes, draining into mud tubs. I placed a 32 oz plastic cup under each hole to simplify transfer back into the res. In less than 3 cycles, the 32 ozs are full I never would have imagined that! Probably due to the quad heads. I think doubles would work fine. Will need to raise the height of the totes so I can gravity drain back to the res.

Did I mention the quality of the fog? It is comparable to when I combined ultrasonic fog with spraybar using EXL mist heads. But unlike that experience, this is super easy, but more expensive. But when I think about how many fog discs I went through (and transformers) combined with high output low pressure pump needed, the difference was maybe $30. Just do it!

Timer

Timer settings will adjust as the root systems mature; Timer settings, while in the 15 liter totes, was 30 seconds on- 20 minutes off (40 off at lights out- 18/6) using a double head. 18G is currently set at 30 seconds on- 5 minutes off. I believe there is no absolute time setting. If you were using the single heads that come with the AMS you might increase your on time and decrease your off time. The volume of your chamber will be a factor, too!

Plants

In one week, the plants vary from 3-4", BUT, several already have a 3rd node.

Roots

I am totally amazed at the amount of fishbone roots in just 7 days. Most of the 10 plants have multiple roots that are a minimum of 8 inches long! As below, so above- eventually.This forced me to move them into the 18G totes today, much sooner than I would have thought. Plus, I crammed too many plants into the 15 liter totes out of necessity, as over 40% of my bag seeds sprouted. I have plants everywhere . I will also use the 15 liter twin system for cloning. With that future use in mind, 3 rows of 4-5 seems about right. You can always plug any extra holes.

Nutes

Target ranges are:

newly rooted clones (200-400)
vegging clones (400-800)
Adult clones in flower (first month 650-850)
Adult clones in flower (second month 800-1000)
.


Photos

I have taken some, though none today- look for them tomorrow. These were taken 7 days ago
Old 12-21-2009, 10:46 PM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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I wanted to post pics Sunday as the roots were awesome, but the plants took a turn. I had no idea why. It took me until today to figure it out.

I have these incredible long FB (fish bone) roots, but short plants < 4". (Last grow was the same; in the beginning the roots dominate, but withiin a couple weeks the plants begin to take off (with a strong trunk) as they have a huge support system.) Since the plants already had a third node, I decided to crank up the ppms. BIG MISTAKE.

Looking back, most likely I upped the nute ppms too fast. The roots were sayin more, more , more, but there simply wasn't enough plant to handle it. The plants were literally burning up from the inside.

"Same from Flower, in DWC bubblers you can push some strains as high as 2000 ppms, however in True Aero you'll only top out at 1000 to 1200 (if even that). You could proabably have amazing results with as little as 800 in full on bud development." Pod Racer


Yesterday mid afternoon, I began flushing with RO and 10% nutes. In just 15-18 hours the plants are recovering.

Patience is a Virtue.
Old 12-22-2009, 06:42 AM
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chronisseur chronisseur is offline
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WHY WOULD ANYONE USE DRIPPERS???

I am in the process of thinking through converting my room to aero or dwc hydro (hand water 3gal pots of ProMix now).. With DWC I would need multiple air pumps - at least $100 worth or a $100 pump... and alot more water..

Those reptile misters look awesome! Im debating whether to make the totes self contained or try to run multiple pumps.. I want to fill 6x6 so perhaps I can find a VERY large reservoir or 2 that lets me do 2.5 x 5 each or so - this way 2 of them could fit in the room easily and the foliage will fill the space nicely and I would just buy 2 submersible pumps and 2 quad misters and make each self-contained in its own reservoir (water only really needs to cover pump - alot less water too).. Id put a drain/tap at the bottom corner or each that I can connect hose/tube to so I can just drain it easily every 2 weeks - filling directly from a R/O machine with a hose etc afterwards (not THAT much will be needed really so a small one will do!)

Im going to make 1-2 small veg totes with 4-6" inch net pots (I want to do 24-36 total, whatever that takes) with hydroclay packed pretty close together and probably run them as simple DWC bubble bucket style (one $40 air pump can handle both) so I can transfer easily to the aero flowering room sites. I clone with a aero-style mister, holes drilled in a plumbing tube powered by a submersible pump going to 2 red misters and 4 spinners. ge great coverage and 15on15off will have to work until my repeat cycle timer arrives (Could NOT find one at RONA or Home Depot or Walmart etc!).. I use neoprene pucks to put the clones in and this is THE cleanest, easiest system yet..

I am curious whether I will shock them by going from aero to hydro (DWC for veg) back to aero? only other option is go straight from cloner to flowering room aero setup (I usually only veg a few days anyways, so that would work). I have 24 sites which is enough to fill my room (although SOG can get in the 30s)... also taking them out of the pucks and threading the roots through the net pot seems hard. Im going to cut a small hole at the bottom but I dont want any clay falling through..

The goal was to automate everything so I can get away sometimes - might as well go aero! I should put my moms into bubblers though.. Even if I keep em really small, like 6 plants per tote, I could fit all my moms in there plenty enough for clones.. Ive built some bubble buckets already too and am experimenting in cloning in it next to the aero tote I built and then flowering side by side soiless pots
Old 12-22-2009, 12:59 PM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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The method I am using is KISS. Yours, well not so much.

1. The less you disturb the plants the better. Self contained means you have to take the entire top (with plants) on/off far more often than you would think. Also, in a tote/table of this size, the top will get heavy as the plants grow, and could (will) buckle when you attempt to take it on off, causing a serious accident.

2. Keep in mind that in a bubble System (BS) you need to keep nutes within 1/2 of the net pots. 1G water weighs 8 pounds. In the system you describe you would probably have 50 gallons per.

3. Net pot size. I made this mistake with my first aero/DWC grow. You don't need net pots at all, but if you are hung up on them, you definitely don't need anything bigger than 3": make sure they have a strong lip. Some don't, and under weight could easily fall through.

4. You can use the AMS for veg. I used it this time and it waaaay outperforms doing so in a BS.

Please don't take offense, but this is my journal. It is for people who are past where you are, so unless you are going to dump your idea, and adapt mine, please take it elsewhere
Old 12-22-2009, 11:32 PM
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CalBear4Life CalBear4Life is offline
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Ouch ohhhhh!!! hahahah
Old 12-23-2009, 07:12 AM
Me2 Me2 is offline
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A bit harsh but still..cant wait to see these massive pom-poms appear
Old 12-23-2009, 02:43 PM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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Phew. I dodged a bullet. Although the plants showed signs of recovery yesterday, to be safe, I flushed another day.
I did not have clear plastic cups on hand but covered a couple plants with clear contaners I had. That definitely helped.

This morning, they are looking good to go, although some leaf bruises remain, those will quickly be replaced, and eventually lolly-popped.

I mixed a fresh batch of nutes (1300 ppm). Will keep a watchful eye on the tops throughout the morning.

Will post some root porn later

UPDATE: early veg between 200-400
late veg 400-600

early bloom 600
mid-late 600-800.

MORE IS NOT BETTER
Old 12-23-2009, 07:23 PM
Root Porn
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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The girls let me take a picture of whats under their skirt.

Root Porn


19 days from sprouting

Most of the 10 plant's roots have multiple FB, just not as many as this one.

All are at least 1 foot long

Question

Should the keepers be selected by best roots or best tops?
Old 12-24-2009, 08:34 PM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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I probably should have posted some pics of the plants when they weren't doing so well, but here they are all perky again.

I think they are ready for take off. I am anticipating explosive growth.
Old 12-24-2009, 10:56 PM
S2G cubes and PVC Couplers
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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I keep learning the hard way, so you don't have to.

S2G or Rockwool cubes & PVC couplers:

When germinating in either S2G or RW cubes in a bubbler, you should see roots emerging within 5 days, Vegging in a 15 liter tote allows the roots to get pretty well established before needing to be transfered to the main system. It also gives you some time to select before transfering.

Vegging in S2G cubes which sit inside a PVC coupler allows you the ability to transfer the PVC coupler/plant directly into the main system with minimal trauma to the plant.

Fantastic, but, the inside mouth of the PVC coupler is a good inch wide. It hit me today, neither S2G nor RW will hold the plant once it starts putting on weight. I need to address this ASAP.

You can compensate by using some type of net pot, inside the coupler, before the roots begin popping out too far. This should prevent a mature plant from falling through the coupler, which would likely damage the lower branches, and certainly traumatize your ladies for a few days. I said "ladies" because the same fate awaits every plant that isn't properly supported. I need to get on this ASAP

My first grow, the main stalk was easily a half inch wide, but I was growing in 4" net pots with hydroton.

Todays neoprene discs, are not likely to solve this problem. IMHO, they need a half inch hole in the center to be of any real value. Seems to me without a hole, the flow of nutrients up the main stalk would be restricted. I tried to drill a puck: maybe I need a different bit, because no hole was created.

One inch net pots should work fine. Alas, all the plants I have in S2G cubes already have long complex roots. I don't want to damage them.

I'm going to have to approach this looming problem from the top this time.

Old 12-25-2009, 04:04 AM
Me2 Me2 is offline
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Sharpen a piece of steel tube by grinding/filing down the wall thickness at an angle all the way around. It`ll punch out a clean hole in the neoprene if you give it a wack.
Old 12-29-2009, 03:37 PM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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12/29/09

Lights are not yet 100% even in watts/lumens.

Notice how bushy the UFO 90 plants are.

Most of the tap roots have reached the bottom of the totes.

Seems to be a couple runts under each light. Time will tell whether they play catch up.





Old 01-02-2010, 03:57 PM
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PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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Happy New Year

I know some of you are using alternative grow methods, but man, TAG is hard to argue against

Weekly photo update.


The root systems are pretty mature (except for the runt, it was in a dead zone, not getting drenched, but it is catching up).

I have looked at a lot of root pics from various grow methods: the only time I have seen comparable roots is in other TAG systems. As below, so above, eventually. Plant growth will be explosive now.

One blogger says the increased feeding time averts deficiencies, especially during bloom cycle. Time will tell.


Now that the roots are developed, I increased the feeding on time to 2 minutes about 5 days ago. I will continue to monitor and experiment with increased time to a max of 5 minutes on. As you can see the plants have doubled in size in a week. No way to know if it was due to the increased feed time.

The two tallest are 10 inches, plus. I pinched the tops of the four largest plants a couple days ago.

The main stem/stalks are really strong and thick. The two largest stalks are about 3/8" diameter!

What are they? Hmmmmm. All are from 10-15 y/o bag seed. No telling what the strains are, but they are from very good to mind blowing weed.

UFO 90 and CFLs

Not a big difference, so far. I added 2 CFLs @ 105 watt bloom lamps. You might see some leaf burn from the CFLs. Not a big deal as these are shade leaves.






TIMER: A week ago, I began to decrease the 18/6 light by one hour, thinking I would do this each week to 12/12, but they are growing so fast now, due to height restraints, I will probably need to cut to 12/12 by end of this week.

Once I change to bloom nutes, the roots are supposed to fatten up and look like pom-poms to support bud growth
Old 01-02-2010, 04:51 PM
Me2 Me2 is offline
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Hi Petflora ...happy new year!
Old 01-02-2010, 05:17 PM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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Thanks for the input. Keep it coming! Where did you come by this?

I am using 4 heads per tote @.9G/ Grow chamber is not supplemented with bubblers. All nutes go to drain and back to the res.

Your recommendation is the way I learned it from the 53 page TAG blog, but, one guy chimmed in on the TAG nute blog and said the bloom deficiencies that were being experienced, were due to feed times being too short! He also criticised the stretched plants- mine are fat bushes, so far. He suggested much longer feed times for both grow and bloom than I am using.

Like I said, so far (5 days) so good. I am monitoring canopies and roots 4-8 times a day.
Old 01-02-2010, 10:41 PM
Me2 Me2 is offline
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Increasing the misting time would just convert it from TAG to something like a semi-NFT. It might fix the nute issue but it kinda defeats the object of the exercise
Old 01-02-2010, 10:52 PM
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PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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"The object of the exercise"?

Until proven otherwise, to meTAG was and is a learning/growing experience. It established a base line from which to draw upon and maybe expand upon.

That said, I looked carefully at my roots this evening- the new shoots are beginning to look FAGGY- no lateral hairs!

So, you are right.

I cut the on time back to 50 seconds even though the tops look great.
Old 01-03-2010, 01:32 AM
Me2 Me2 is offline
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Join Date: 03-18-2007
Posts: 232
Hi Petflora,
I don`t think any of it is gospel in fact i believe a lot of the information in the tag thread leans towards LP aero than TAG to be honest.
The object of the exercise in the case of TAG is to create the ideal environment that allows the roots to feed constantly.
Old 01-03-2010, 04:27 AM
113409
PetFlora PetFlora is offline
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Join Date: 09-23-2009
Posts: 5029
From GET YOUR TAN WHILE YOU TAG "Notice that they are broad and at a 45° angle UP, that means they are working at 100% capacity and I have achieved my goal of optimum conditions."

And this is what I am seeing above, but, we both know that what is happening below will show up above, sooner rather than later in TAG.

As you so eloquently stated the concept of short nutes blasts, I believe in it whole heartedly. The only thing I wasn't sure of was "How short is short?" I can see from looking at the roots tonite that 2 minutes 'on' over a 5 day period began to take a toll on the roots.

Thanks for pointing it out!

Hope you'll keep an eye on me.
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