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Old 07-07-2007, 10:31 PM #1
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MASSIVE OUTDOOR COMMERCIAL GROW

Note:Certain pictures/links have been removed at different times, for different reasons. My apologies.


The idea for a thread initially came to me as I was going on one of my last (or what I thought to be), "rounds" to go out for the year. ( of course also by another similar thread, which tended to span many subjects and topics and turn into quite a few posts..which is actually where and why I am borrowing the title, as it is somewhat of an offshoot....)

Of course, within 45 minutes of that thought, I had already finished speaking to someone who decided they "were in" for a a small run of "mini's, meaning I will have to, within a couple weeks, make another "round" for him, and, of course, since I will be busy anyway, well, I'll add a bunch also for me to put at a yet to be determined spot... (I'm sure I'll find a place for em....)

So, why and what occurred to me that my "last round", which was actually supposed to be a quick "hit and run" indoor at the "veg center" before packing it all up and shutting down, I decided I will just send them to an outdoor location.....possibly with some going to a seed plot..(That round is Rez Diesel, DA BB x NL, Blockhead, and the last of my BOG Sour Bubble....). Possibly my location(s), possibly Partnership locations. I haven't decided . (Depends on final numbers and spots at either available which seem "safe" enough. Of course, they'll be late planted/ "mini's", so, opens up a whole different set of possibilities and locations.

It then occurred to me since doing later rounds which weren't firmly planned, that why not just hold back those above, shave em (clone) all down when I started germing for the other project in about a month......and that of course while the entire process is quite simple.....sometimes people just need to hear and see a couple new ideas to form many of their own, and, that one being a good example. (ie: Instead of flipping down indoors, why not just hold onto them, veg a little, and turn those into another 500...and, split them between my own and the other project, or, even just keep them all for my spots and germ and prepare the other project. (about 500 mini's....)

Of course, I've made a lot of posts on a lot of topics contained, and, pics will be limited as many are aware I recently had a security breech, which in the process was deletion of handles, posts, galleries, and, also all the original docs and systems wiped clean, but, will include pics I can find when and where appropriate to illustrate.

I will leave specific numbers out of the topic, but, for sake of conversation "Earlier rounds" are 500+/-, and, "later rounds" are on average about 100 at a time give or take. (Could also be split, so, 50 one day, 50 the next, etc) So, we could say, to assist illustration, that the "main" might be around 4000-5000.......the "city" might be up to 1500+, and the "late/extra" might be around 500 or so....

(1st (main) is a split, 50/40/10, 40% my end, (Landowner of property owner always gets superior share as greatest risk in op).....City is 100% mine...Lates/3rd are 100$ in my spots, 50% mine in other spots (although if good year I'll change that to 30% my end to be generous.

(Note: I prefer to start with fem seed and then move onto clones and only do male/female seed when absolutely no other present choice. The no maintenance I prefer clones if I have extra so fem seed can be done at best spot (least security issues), and, if not, fem beans. (Male/female have to be sexed and can be a problem because of course we have no specific idea and would be impossible to go in , time it, and just sex all and not come back.)

Clones are simply done in RW plugs (2 to a plug for max spacing and efficiency ) under T-5's (domes misted daily) with about 1/4-1/2" very light nutes and usually by the time water is gone. If not sufficient roots (for transplant/desired), watered again, , same as above, after which there are usually more roots than plug left. It's easily possible to do 100+ per 10" x 20" tray, which means one can easily turn out numbers fitting their desires in a fairly small space, fairly quickly, with minimal cost. (And, no, it's not too late in season. If one had a couple mothers onhand, they might be able to get 200+ per mother, and, within 2 weeks, early July, have them out, enabling not quite giants, and, not quite mini's, but, some fair yields depending on your numbers.

The "main"/1st consists of wilderness, several hrs out of city limits where I always say you could "lie down in the middle of road, sleep, wake up, have some OJ and leave" never having seen a person or car or plane. It's about 100 "spots", with each spot up to 100+, "average" spots 50. (All "spots" planted staggered, worked in to surroundings, no definable pattern. Sometimes all same strain, sometimes mixed."Earlier" Holes/rounds are done by power ,app. 12" wide by up to 3" deep , prepped with dry organics, and, top fed once in a while when either there, the time to do it, or, see a need, but, do not usually show any problems and are top fed minimal 2 times. (About 3-5 cups of a custom organic mix are tossed in each hole and around the dirt from the whole and mixed before a transplant, and watered a little.)

The "City" might be up to 20 locations, up to 100 per "spot" because planted a little later (June-July) sometimes on opposite ends, areas of the city. These might consist of construction sites, railroad/highway sites, industrial with vegetation,around golf courses, city and county land...anywhere else one can imagine in a major metropolitan area. (My spot next do a suburban police station was turned into a development couple years back though )

City spots would be minimal holes, straight in ground, with dry mix and top feed (and sometimes crystals) mixed in with soil before planting, average 1 hole a minute and up to 1 x 1. Most of the time, done at night, spaces either used previous years without any problem or loss or new scouted numerous times the previous year, and, likewise, new spots scouted current year. Ideally, never a visit to second spot and finishing dates estimated with a night quick hit and run cut, although, a possible pass by if in area and right time of day and convenient. Maybe 2 during season, maybe less, maybe more but always a pre cut visit a week or so at a distance enough to scope plots and surroundings and try and determine if still there, okay, no issues to be concerned about.

3rd spot will most likely consit of an semi-urban backyard, maybe a 10 x 20 plot that will be prepped shortly by owner to my directions, and planted very small, very tight (pre sex)....maybe 500 or so, and, at the same time will be running maybe another 500 somewhere else that I have not decided yet that I would rather do on my own.(I mean, since I am making some anyway, might as well make more I think, right now......those , maybe will start........Hmmmm..........Ju ly 25th......lately, I have been doing about 14 days from when they break the soil to putting them out.(I only count after cracked seed and broke soil and shook off seed coat...) but, of course, late, (and anytime for that matter), people tend to "hold onto them" for any number of reasons a little too long when in reality your just hurting your own efficiency (ie: will grow faster out, so, you want them out asap, although "established" comes into play....the more "established" they are the greater chances of suiccess, but, with late planted, you want them out much earlier....)

Should also be noted late oplanted project has already changed now....and will be at least 3 locations...500 in one, and, up to 2000 in others....and, then...maybe even more...all depends on how many can be fit (germing) into prep space, which will be "mapped " out within next week or so (2-3 weeks before germ) (There was one planned earlier in year for about 4,000 in one spot, which died on the vine for various reasons, but, it is again being discussed...) That was most likely going to be a purchase of an "estate"..private land used in semi rural urban location if that makes sense....

Late projects will be done with the larger jiffy pellets,which I believe can be done up to 300+ per tray/container, getting about 2100+/- per room (2 rooms) every 7+/- days....(so, 4200 every 7+/- days...enabling a potential of 8400 mini's ready to go within 14+/- days....doesn't matter if a little off.....) Maybe some pics when prep and mapping of space begins, or when ready, or when out...(or all).. we will see....usually method is soaking in light veg solution, with about 1/4" in trays, replaced as it is either wicked, evaporated, or eaten.....(many know how fast the peat products as said can dry out.....you never want them to dry out.....the roots penetrate very easily when kept moist...and with such small volume (of medium) and such fast growth, they dry out very quickly if not tended to and enough in trays to wick...

All rounds for all projects, early or later (not the latest as above.."last shot" batches )are done when roots break through peat pots, which has been around 2 weeks or so and 6+".

(Peat pots, despite all other previous claims by any something I swear by, and, have tremendous success with on an extremely large volume, consistently. Some will claim that the pots leech moisture, drying out the pot, and that, as such, it is impossible for roots to penetrate , but, my experiences would show those inaccurate claims, due to not being aware how to use them correctly.

For any and all rounds, numbers are determined simple byby contaniners used (1.75" jiffy's not included in pick). In some cases, one might be able to get 500, even up to 1000 (300 per container)
instead of 100-200 at a time into a trunk
if using the jiffy's or the 2" peat, down to less per container with 3" (square or round), to 8-12-16oz cups, through the 6" peat pots , which are absolutely fantastic.

One should be aware of all steps in the process from start through finish (ie: If planning larger numbers, all should fall in line with those numbers from pots through transport through method to most quickly and efficiently plant.. 1000 jiffy's? No problem, 3 containers under a 1k. 1000 in 6" pots?, your looking at 50 per larger tray or container, meaning 20 trays to prep, plant, germ, grow, water, transport, and plant. Big difference. (Between 3 trays and 20!)

All rounds, anywhere, for any project are also scheduled and planted on days preceding rain. ie: 1-2-3+ days of rains coming in?, great, that will be enough to saturate soil, give them light weather/temps and sun to "break them in", meaning no sun exposure and no water/nute mix necessary for those rounds.

Likewise, some rounds just "have to go", plain and simple, regardless, so, those will get watered and also crystals (wetted down mixed in with solution used at transplant, and, also some dry added to hole.

Planting at different rounds of any location is determined simply by motivation "earlier" rounds tend to get the holes, and, are viewed as the "guarantee" for weight desired, using low estimates, of course (a lesson here), "later rounds, "other projects" are of course the "backup"...or, the "gravy".....

(ie: One could think, okay, I drilled 500 prepped holes, will be giants, solid, but, let's assume low end of 1/4 lb a plant (actual can be up to 2lb's a plant. 3/4-1 will probably be "actual" yield. (But, never assume) Then, one might continue germing or cloning and planting until "late season", for "gravy. (ie: separation and focusing on desired end results and objectives)

So.....some will have holes, others will not, and minimal hole...all are "no maintenance" to a degree...ranging from every 2 weeks for a quick "inspection" or so, possibly pull /cut some weeds and a top feed, some will simply be planted at any time, and return upon estimated finish dates established based upon strain.....late planted may very well be a prepared plot(s), completely, but I have not decided how yet.(ie: P-K heavy since will flower shortly, with higher N initial feeding?, etc...)

None will be watered manually unless absolutely necessary, which is usually not as planting before runs coming in, with or without holes, will usually get it going well enough where it can endure times with minimal rain.

Note: Ideally, you want a nice heavy storm every week, possibly two, with later, when established, especially with holes, it being able to handle more.

Of course I am in the NE, west of Mississippi, North of Tennessee. Others in climates with less rainfall may not be able to get away with the above, and might need you to stop in. For the most part, in that region, I have never watered a single plant manually in my entire life. This year, I watered one patch with about 300 one time...being of course out of many locations,(200?) and, many more numbers.

As one can possibly imagine, it does become somewhat of an issue keeping track of multiple spots, at multiple locations, and several different overall projects. Only memory and landmarks are used, with most locations being used before, and, most of the time, not a problem. (Many utilize GPS....which is fine until one realizes the implications should it fall into the wrong hands at any time, which leads right back to security issues, number of plants per plot, etc.....ie: Big difference being caught in a plot of 50-100 and being caught in a plot of 50-100 and then linked to 100+ other plots and up to 10-15,000+....

Maybe you just stumbled upon that plot and were planning to steal some while hoping the growers of it didn't come by...... (I know personally one individual whom was caught in a plot whom upon their appearance begged for his life and how he was only going to take a little............we'll leave it at that )

(It should be noted one should always have identifying factors covered (tats, hair, eyes, etc) and hoods when visiting and also a change of clothes nearby...( a man in black or camo from head to toe with a hood in no way clearly identifies someone 2 miles away in jeans in a t shirt....) Cameras have become the norm in investigations. Smaller projects one hopes upon a problem they will merely find business cards in the stumps, but the larger one goes, the greater the interest may very well be.

Of course, the magic of outdoor is it's simplicity. ie: Anyone, anywhere, anytime with minimal funding, a car, and minimal space can easily produce 1000 outdoors.(Even more...your only limit is your budget (can use bagseed) and the amount of time and effort one has to dedicate to the project(s)......

There might not be the pictures one is hoping for.....and with dates edited out........because...of course.....maybe I'm lying about numbers.......(could be).......maybe I'm lying about everything (dates) and aren't even running anything at all.....(could be).......



So.... anything and everything.....from seeds or clones early and late through outdoor drying through packed and gone....through asset allocation....property selection(s).....etc...

While many may be under the impression that money (management, distribution, procurement of assets,etc) and budgets and such things play less for outdoor, such is not only not the case, but, in some ways more so applicable, due to expenses reduced 10+ fold and profits and yields increased 10 x fold......

One example is I was recently talking to a newer grower (real life) about his objectives....."Why"...."And then what"....and, an example of topic in this specific case being "Okay, then, let's say, every year, for every crop, goal should be get a 6-12 flat out of it (6-12 unit apartment buildings...)"...every year, every crop, dedicate to real property/hard/tangible assets, etc....(or both split......maybe a building, and, then maybe assets placed at alternate location......ie: Why do it for money if objective is not to accumulate substantial wealth, etc....

Outdoor activities much less risk of being tied to a criminal conspiracy (such as being caught red handed in a property you have been watched coming in and out of arising from ___ information, etc...) and as such, carries much more safety (on a time line/annual/exposure basis)....ie: Instead of one being directly, or indirectly connected to 1 or more indoor locations and properties for 12 months out of the year...outdoor changes that aspect to one's involvement being 6 months out of the year, or less, and, depending when you plant, even less, ending up with the late planted "mini's", which would then place ones entire annual exposure at 3 months+/-....

Increased yield, increased profits, reduced expenses, reduced exposure.....
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It is said of the wild goose that it calls to it's comrades whenever it finds food; this is the symbol of peace and concord in good fortune. A man does not want to keep his good luck for himself only, but is ready to share it with others.

A sage who has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life, may under certain circumstances,decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach other men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. And for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless.


Henry David Thoreau:Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

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Old 07-07-2007, 10:39 PM #2
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Also worthy of adding would be the true simplicity of running any sort of volume.....

I previously thought I was "done" was at least several weeks until late projects...overworked, needed a little rest, and, of course, that lasted about 4 days..., and, back to work.....

Many think volume is beyond them for many reasons, so, let's start at sq. one... 500 starts with a 40" x 40" footprint.Could easily be a couple times more, and, contemplating since back working, maybe just doing that weekly until the last projects (so, maybe squeeze in 4 rounds...500 each and then do the late rounds......which are still not established really for when and where, etc...but, could be fairly high numbers.....and, don't really have too many specific spots in mind, but, did also come across several others this week that I think I could fit another 1000 or so in.....

I've said many times before, that larger is overestimated, and, truly, the problems have to do with later in season...(visits, drying, packing....) Anything else not really a problem and volume just requires a "system" and more efficient approach.....One can easily run 500-1000 at a time if they are running 20....basic knowledge is required....
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I Ching
It is said of the wild goose that it calls to it's comrades whenever it finds food; this is the symbol of peace and concord in good fortune. A man does not want to keep his good luck for himself only, but is ready to share it with others.

A sage who has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life, may under certain circumstances,decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach other men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. And for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless.


Henry David Thoreau:Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

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Old 07-07-2007, 11:13 PM #3
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Wow, that was a good read... almost didn't leave anything for us to ask questions about

Anyways... so I do have some questions:
What do you think of buying property that is either recreational or zone agriculture and throwing plants randomly around the property... say like an 300 acre property that is fairly remote (40 minutes of a switch-back uphill dirt road)? All of its boarders are on national parks, so no real neighbors...

Second question is: I'm on the west coast (on the coast) and never really have any frost, but also no real rain.... should I just run irrigation to some plots or what... this is the chin scratcher for me
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:14 PM #4
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In keeping with tone, of course I do a lot of "no maintenance", always have, and, actually for the first time had a minor loss this year (about 100 or so), due to the batch having to go out and having no crystals, which are often heavily debated.

All the similar patches are fine, the one that went out where I did not have any on hand has officially been "fried"....(a shame, but, not end of the world, just a couple out of whole scheme of things...so....)

(These are "city" spots, with basically no cover, and exposure to sun from sun up till sun down....constant, in addition to, while there is indeed surrounding vegetation, they are basically dirt..(not what most people would consider spots where one could grow), so tend to become very hot also....)

Due to this loss (which I have taken a little harder than I should since it's really only about 1% of all...) I have now also implemented yet another level, which will be to mix in the smallest sizes of crystals (in addition to wet at planting and then dry also mixed) into the plots themselves......

There are of course many rules we should follow, and, should never be waived, regardless (technically, I should have held off on that round for a couple days until I was able to secure more supplies....but, they "had to go"....)

I'm also nursing my first ever case (minor) of poison ivy/oak/sumac, due to yet another lapse in protocol (long sleeves included), because it was "too hot"...(100 degrees, 100% humidity, and no wind whatsoever for several hours planting ....)

Of course attached to that is one should never work or visit plots unless properly covered due to possible identification issues (tats covered, hood, etc...) and such is a major potential security breach.

Many will debate this due to their volume, and , they are free to, it's only my position....

Back to crystals...I've of course been using them for years, but, this incident is the first rock solid and true indication of the actual difference they provide...(20 spots fine, the one without fried to a crisp....)
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It is said of the wild goose that it calls to it's comrades whenever it finds food; this is the symbol of peace and concord in good fortune. A man does not want to keep his good luck for himself only, but is ready to share it with others.

A sage who has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life, may under certain circumstances,decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach other men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. And for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless.


Henry David Thoreau:Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:27 PM #5
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Well how long do the crystals last in the soil. I mean, do you mix 50% and get a day or two?
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:32 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkin2006
Wow, that was a good read... almost didn't leave anything for us to ask questions about
Well, if I do it right, your not supposed to have
Quote:
Anyways... so I do have some questions:
What do you think of buying property that is either recreational or zone agriculture and throwing plants randomly around the property... say like an 300 acre property that is fairly remote (40 minutes of a switch-back uphill dirt road)? All of its boarders are on national parks, so no real neighbors...

Second question is: I'm on the west coast (on the coast) and never really have any frost, but also no real rain.... should I just run irrigation to some plots or what... this is the chin scratcher for me
I don't like irrigation of any sort.....but, all must keep in mind if running such? Bury all lines beforehand....

Irrigation while of course not a miraculous feat, will indeed convey a "degree of sophistication", which will not paint a positive picture should anything occur....

Irrigation issue is:
1.Is it necessary?

If so, then there is no debate on whether one should or not....

I have done projects in the past that required it and was worked out, but, not in many, many years and for the most part have not had to water (due to locations NE quarter of US) myself....

I think 300 acres is more than enough to successfully pull off a cumulative 5 acres worth....(cumulative being of course total...one would not want to even have a solid acre, and, I personally would draw the line at about a solid 1/2 acre, but that would ideally be on a wooded/grassy location....done late, smaller, still staggered..

(Of course, one always wants everything staggered and worked into landscape.......(ie: NO ROWS!!!)

Unless of course your doing a mini run ...I've been working on(planning) such a project for a while (late planted, make it look like a commercial crop of some sort...I think highly possible, sizes help.....time of season helps, and, as I have written elsewhere, it's all about depth perception (from the air...)

How does an aerial view clearly display the size of the object?....Because it is in direct relation o things surrounding it....(ie: one cannot tell specific height, but may see from how it relates to a vehicle or outbuilding that the plants in question only reach the top of a tire of a vehicle, or, let's say, 10-15% the height of a garage nearby...

Personally I have also recently developed an interest and curiosity with the true AF/LR's...and, might very well have an interest in trying to pull of an early smaller crop (May, etc) Thinking about it offhand, I personal;ly would have no problem running a solid acre or 2 in May knowing finished shortly afterwards....

(Of course, one of the objectives and benefits of smaller plants and late projects is ones exposure and risk......dramatically reduced...)

On that note....I have always found, with the larger projects (early, larger plants)...it's really no big deal, as , they don't develop any significant size until later in season...(ie: Plant May 1.......no problems regarding visual aspects until July or so.....so, I'm sure many will agree, and, only strengthens the benefits of an earlier AF project...)

(Of course that leads in to people talking about forcing through shading and such, but, then one has to have some sort of means and facility to accomplish such things, and, I've never been a fan of greenhouses of any size (meaning larger.....if it was that easy, we could just all set up 10,000 sq. ft plus greenhouses....but, then again, the flip size would be that if enough sq footage, might be possible to do earlier batches in times that draw less interest, but, of course, I never advocate running anything, anytime, straight, indefinately......

More than once of course properties have been bought for projects....All depends what your desires are....

(I recently saw a 10 acre or so "estate".....and, still pondering if I could get away with a bunch or larger, or, many smaller, etc.......ie: if you could go full force, early, and, say, pull 100 5 lb'ers......might not be that bad....(10 an acre...)

(I typically don't run those, as requires more prep and attention than remote spots can provide.....so...but, lately have been contemplating it if area is right....)

Close Proximity to Parks (National and State) has always made me a little nervous, because all sorts of issues..(yes, YOUR land, but, who knows who might be passing over or by and why.......so...location on property and stealth would be issues, and, again, depends on method...(many smaller I personally would always do anywhere if location enables.....larger?..larger they are, greater the risk....)
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I Ching
It is said of the wild goose that it calls to it's comrades whenever it finds food; this is the symbol of peace and concord in good fortune. A man does not want to keep his good luck for himself only, but is ready to share it with others.

A sage who has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life, may under certain circumstances,decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach other men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. And for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless.


Henry David Thoreau:Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:38 PM #7
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Originally Posted by pumpkin2006
Well how long do the crystals last in the soil. I mean, do you mix 50% and get a day or two?
I'm unsure of the question.......

If you toss a nice tablespoon into a gallon container and fill it with water.....within the hour the container will be solid...(maybe 2 tablespoons?...I've never done a formal experiment but very small amounts hold tremendous amounts of water.......)

I usually mix enough in so it is still liquid enough to pour and work with (in nutes), then mix in dry with the soil in hole, and, will from now on introduce even more finer crystals in with the surrounding/top surface...(for smaller, later city plots....so, 3 levels of protection....)

There are threads and discussions about these. I use whatever is available, and it's as simple as that.....
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It is said of the wild goose that it calls to it's comrades whenever it finds food; this is the symbol of peace and concord in good fortune. A man does not want to keep his good luck for himself only, but is ready to share it with others.

A sage who has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life, may under certain circumstances,decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach other men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. And for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless.


Henry David Thoreau:Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:47 PM #8
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I guess my question is: How long can the crystals keep your plants alive, between waterings... also I'm sure there's a sliding scale, as to how many crystals you use and how long it will keep your plants alive. I guess what I was saying is: if I mixed half of my soil volume with crystals, would it sustain plants for a long period of time?

Edit: Also I don't know if you've seen the gel packs of "water" that can be mixed into the top soil to provide water, as well. Just your thoughts on those?

Last edited by pumpkin2006; 07-07-2007 at 11:48 PM..
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:05 AM #9
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It would be very unwise to create a 50/50 mix I think, since a tablespoon or 2 could be a gallon, making a 50/50 mix.....a potential disaster...(I'm not even sure what the results would be with so much....I would imagine pushing your entire plant and soil right out of the hole with a heavy storm.....

I do believe I have seen those and other products, but, have not used them....I prefer something dry that can be used any way I wish...(added to nutes (liquid, initial planting), mixed in with soil/hole, etc, etc..
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:22 AM #10
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Given the time of the season and the weather (even earlier...), something very simple, yet overlooked should also be mentioned for all potential growers....

Note: If you will be out, working for extended periods, in unfavorable weather, always have something with you (to drink). What I do is usually throw a case of water, gatorade, or both, into the freezer a day or 2 before going out, and then tossing that into a cooler with some ice.....(They will be fine,. depending......if your out for several hours....will melt fairly quick, sometimes even by half if a long drive to locations......but, usually, if frozen, by the end of the day they are still cold.....)

(If too frozen, you just leave out for couple minutes and will be half melted...)

100 degrees more or less, heavy labor for hours at a time......you don't want to find yourself without enough (to drink)..Can make a big difference, and, important as any other aspect of preparation before going out....(Just as important as gloves, nutes, etc....)

(You want water on hand also at least to cool off, head, back, etc, etc, lower temps........couple hours or more in extreme heat with heavy work......not good if nothing onhand.....ie: Most might only be able to last an hour....if stocked, take a couple breaks, can maybe do 10 hrs....)
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It is said of the wild goose that it calls to it's comrades whenever it finds food; this is the symbol of peace and concord in good fortune. A man does not want to keep his good luck for himself only, but is ready to share it with others.

A sage who has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life, may under certain circumstances,decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach other men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. And for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless.


Henry David Thoreau:Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw.

Last edited by Julian; 07-08-2007 at 12:23 AM..
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