Taking it too the next level!!

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Aloha everyone. :joint:

This thread is the result of many,many years of growers worldwide using the "Lucas" formula. I am going to present what I feel is a comprehensive modern tutorial on how to apply the "Lucas" formula to growing in Coco coir. I want to start by saying, I am using Lucas's own words to make the points in this. I will to the best of my knowledge use only quotes from the master's themselves to make points. This is meant to educate us grower's that choose to use the "Lucas" formula. I also choose to include Head's and Rez's formula as they are pertinent to coco. To make this simple: We are going to discuss the Lucas formula and the " Modified Lucas formula" and how they relate to growing in Coco Coir. :jump:

Let us start at the very beginning. The" Lucas" formula is a formula derived from Mel Frank's interpretation of what he feel's is the optimum nutrient profile for growing exceptional Cannabis. The formula is simply a guideline to exactly what a cannabis plant needs to excel. Lucas says

" This was not my idea, I learned this from my guru P.H."

who adapted Mel's formula and taught to Lucas.

The basic formula says"0-8-16 - For Flowering cycle (12/12) "

For those that do not understand this formula it means,

zero usage of Gh FLORA grow, 8ml a gallon of Flora micro, and 16ml a gallon of GH Flora bloom.

This results in a nutrient profile of 130-106-183-73.

This is the original "Lucas " formula. :rasta:

Now for a word from master Lucas :

"The current Lucasized Formula with GH Flora is still 0-8-16 as you said. Other nutes, such as PBP can also be made to approximate similar NPKMg values, for example PBPBloom @ 15ml/gal plus 5ml/gal Cal Mag.., or 8ml/gal Flora Nova Bloom

Both with target TDS @.7 of about 1300ppm (use less FNB, like 6ml/gal if your TDS exceeds 1400 with 8ml)

The original reservoir strategy I learned from pH was to dump and replace as you described, once an equal volume of addback water has reached. IOW, when a 20 gallon res, got 20 gallons of top up water, the res was dumped and refilled at fresh 0-8-16. This was not with pH adjusted water, because it works best to allow the res pH to fluctuate within a range of 5.3 to 6.3

An alternate reservoir management strategy I now prefer, is to add nutes to the reservoir in the addback water. The goal is to bring the reservoir back up to 1300ppm. In this strategy, I feel a single res change at harvest is sufficient.

Despite the obvious concern that this non dumping approach allows toxins to build up, I never experienced toxin buildup. this surprised me and caused me to alter my thinking about plant metabolism. It seems they do not excrete toxins the way organisms with digestive tracts do.

How much nutes goes in the addback water varies by res to light ratio. For example, a 50 gallon res under a single 1k can be topped with 33% of 0-8-16, and the 1300 tds will be approximately achieved... Im not a stickler for that number, and am happy fluctuating anywhere between 1100 and 1500ppm over the course of a week, such that if one chooses to top only with water for a few days, the nuteing can be done in a single session each week.

If the same 50 gallon res is used under twice as much light, it will probably require twice as much nutes in the addback water.

The most primary concern is to achieve the TDS increase, while staying within pH range

adding nutes lowers pH, so sometimes one can avoid pH adjusting, by adding more or less nutes
adding water raises pH, so dont adjust a reservoir, until it is topped up with water and nutes."

This is straight from my guru's lips,word's to grow by. :pimp3:

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

The "Modified Lucas formula" according to Head is as follows

" Being the rebel that I am...Not having coco specific nutes, and having a full supply of GH flora micro and bloom, I've been working at tailoring the 'Modified Lucas formula' I was using in pro-mix to suit the coco better...

The mix I have arrived at has reduced levels of K and P, and a slight reduction in total concentration, because I have been keeping the runoff to a minimum (only a few ounces of water come thru, just enough to let me know I'm completely saturated...

So... when I was using a modified lucas formula... my nutrient profile when growing in promix was:
N 130
P 93
K 163
Mg 64
S 43
Ca 130

By mixing 8ml/gal micro and 14ml/gal bloom and watering with plain water every other watering...

In the coco, I am now using 6ml/gal micro and 9ml/gal bloom which gives the nute profile:
N 97
P 60
K 105
Mg 41
S 27
Ca 97

adding 1 g/gal epsom salts to the solution changes the numbers for mg and s to:
Mg 67
S 61

Adjusting for the extra available potassium in the coco, the new formula puts me very close to the 'target ratio'... Phosphorous is a tad low, but I think there should be no worries there...

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Head has since put out the update of his recipe as" Originally Posted by Grat3fulh3ad

I use 6ml/gallon GH flora micro and
9ml/gallon GH flora Bloom

1/2 strength for seedlings and freshly rooted clones

Full strength from the beginning of Veg until they begin bud formation
then

9ml/gallon GH flora bloom up until 2 weeks prior to harvest

Then plain water to finish.

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Rez says"
==The Recipe==

(All Products are GenHydro,pH at 6.0)
(All measurements are per gal.)
6ml flora micro
9ml flora bloom
5ml Floralicious (during week 3 of a 4-5week,24-on,veg cycle.)

Week 5,transition into flower-6.0 pH h20 at <100ppm

Based on 63 day 12/12 Flower Cycle:

Day 1-14
6ml micro
9ml bloom

Day 15-21
6ml micro
9ml bloom
7ml Kool-Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

Day 22-28
9ml Bloom

Day 29-35
9ml Bloom
7ml Kool-Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

Day 36-52
9 ml Bloom

Day 50-63 (Flush)
6.0 pH h20 at <100 ppm

Now you know!!

This is the recipe according to rezdog.

:joint:

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Here we have three different nutrient profiles. All work well. :rasta:

All the growers that use these different profiles are masters in their own right,agreed.
:bow:

But how close do Head and Rez match up to Lucas?? Lets see. Lucas says

" 0-8-16 is a great formula to start with"

He also says

" I don't recommend
additives."

Lucas grows in Gro-roks. Head an' Rez grow in coco. This is apples to oranges really. All 3 are master's, just different domains. This is where I feel this thread takes off. :chin:

Head's profile in coco works with the notion that reduced K levels offset the cation exchange that coco naturally exhibit. His results speak for themselves. I have no doubt that Head knows whats up.
Rez's results are from the same school.These are guy's from the same school that know the basic's. :joint:

Just for shits and giggles, I went to school for ag. I went to university of Hawaii. Believe me, Rez, and Head, and Lucas know what is up. :smoweed:

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Now I want to show some scientific info for all the geeks :rasta:

This is straight from my guru's mouth, Lucas speaking for those that care.

" I think it works to maintain TDS instead of dumping and mixing fresh. I recommend that approach for the entire life of a single crop.

In fact, here is a, for me, very interesting nute strategy. Mix up a vegetative reservoir of Flora Nova Grow. Veg the plants in it, then when you flip to bloom, dont dump the res at all, just use Flora Nova Bloom for all the addbacks..

After harvest, dump the res, and start again..

this approach is Nitrogen heavy at the beginning.. and produces Very vigorous growth, fat hollo'w stems, and very pHat colas.

Lucas"

So the latest and greatest from guru says

" Using Floranova Grow during veg will result in increased yields and max veg growth."

This is new.

Lets look at the N-P-K-Mg for Floranova Grow:

8mL/gallon Flora Nova grow. This is the recommended formula for growth.

Flora Nova is the one bottle solution to nutrients, note this mix is almost identical to Canna Aqua Vega, and GrowGreen's Nute Recipe

n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

Here is the flora series profile for g/m/b that is closest to above in a 3 part:

15 ml grow
10 ml micro
5ml bloom

This is GH's growth formula that most represents Floranova's growth profile. the breakdown is:
GH's baseline Flora Series, the 3 bottles, green purple and red, (different from Flora Nova series) veg formula

GH 15grow, 10micro, 5bloom
n 211
p 46
k 263
Mg 40

Pretty damn close huh?
:kos:

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Now lets look at Floranova bloom.

The N-P-K-Mg # is 4-7-8-2 which at 8ml/gallon is:
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

This most represents the actual Lucas formula, Doesn't it ? :joint:

remember the og formula which is 0g/ 8m/ 16b says

n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73

And that

Head's ratio was:
n 97
p 60
k 105
Mg 67

And Rezdog's ratio is way complex so I will repeat:

(All Products are GenHydro,pH at 6.0)
(All measurements are per gal.)
6ml flora micro
9ml flora bloom
5ml Floralicious (during week 3 of a 4-5week,24-on,veg cycle.)

Week 5,transition into flower-6.0 pH h20 at <100ppm

Based on 63 day 12/12 Flower Cycle:

Day 1-14
6ml micro
9ml bloom

Day 15-21
6ml micro
9ml bloom
7ml Kool-Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

Day 22-28
9ml Bloom

Day 29-35
9ml Bloom
7ml Kool-Bloom Liquid (0-10-10)

Day 36-52
9 ml Bloom

Day 50-63 (Flush)
6.0 pH h20 at <100 ppm

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

Let's not get ahead of ourselves for a moment and go back to coco basics. Coco as a medium:Coco Coir
Coco coir is a relatively new growing medium available these days for the hydroponics soil less culture. Coco coir is being produced as a bi-product of the coconut tree. Coconut husk is processed to produce fibrous material for use as a growing medium.

History
Coconut coir (fiber made out of coconut shells) has been used in different parts of the world for many years. Initially this fiber had been used for making twine, mats and brooms by western civilizations, but it had never been looked at as a growing medium for plant growth in the western world, although it had been used as a growing medium in ancient India and China. The use of this product as a medium for plant growth started in the late '80s, and moved into the commercial sector in the early 90s. Since then its use has increased day by day in home gardening, growing roses and vegetable production, and in the hydroponics industry in general.

Coconut coir is one of the most versatile materials man has ever extracted from Mother Nature. It has traveled a long way since its humble beginnings as the ubiquitous tying ropes. Coir today is used to make everything from door mats to rugs, rubberized coir mattresses, decorative rugs, garden supplies and growing medium. It is not just a natural product - it also has some winning advantages that make this product a premium choice for modern soil less growing systems.

Properties
Coco coir is a proven best alternative to any growing media. Its use as a growing medium outperforms any other medium used for growing vegetables, ornamentals and tree plants. Its soft structure promotes easy root penetration and healthy growth. Coco coir is 100% environmentally friendly. It is a renewable resource that is consistent in quality. Coco coir has the best physical and chemical properties to promote better plant growth.

• Coco has high water-holding capacity. It can hold water up to eight times of its weight and release it over a period of time.
• Coco has ideal pH in the range of 6-6.7
• It has excellent drainage and air porosity for better plant growth
• Coco is very low in EC and carries mostly potassium salts, which is an essential major plant nutrient
• Cation exchange capacity is very good
• Coco coir has some anti-fungal properties that help plants to get rid of soil borne diseases. It inhibits pathogens like Pithium
• Coco is very easy to re-hydrate after being dehydrated
• It is a biodegradable source that degrades very slowly and has a life of three to four years
• Contains significant amounts of phosphorous (10-50ppm) and potassium (150-450 ppm)

As mentioned above Coco coir is not just a natural product with very good properties for plant growth - it also has some winning advantages over other growing mediums.

Advantages of Coco Coir
• It is a 100% renewable resource
• Coco coir is light in weight
• It is consistent in high quality
• Coco coir is completely environmentally friendly
• The top of the product layer in grow bags/pots always remain dry, leaving behind no chances of fungal growth
• Coco coir never shrinks, cracks or produces crust
• It promotes better root systems in a short time
• Coco coir is odorless, pleasant to handle, and uniform in composition

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

This is where it gets interesting don't it. :muahaha:

I gotta go to bed,be back soon :joint:

Ok here we go. At this time we are going to discuss additives to the formula. Here is what Lucas has to say when asked does FNB (Flora Nova Bloom) absolutely, positively have 100% of all ingredients a healthy plant needs?

Yes, so does 0-8-16, so does PBP (Pure Blend Pro) plus Cal Mag. In fact there are even people whose plants are happy with nothing but PBP, to my amazement.. as discussed in the calculating nutrients thread

Yes, there is absolutely nothing in any of the additives that a plant cannot live without, IF YOU USE FULL strength nutes.

If you screw with 50% of this and that... youre back to needing additives

although nutrition contains many subtle elements besides the basic 4, NPK and Mg that I profile, the plants dont actually live on nutrients.

nutes are just like vitamins, or electrolites, they help the plant build tissue by helping it to transport things it is extracting from air and water.

Carbon, which comes from air, not nutes, is the main ingredient in plant life, on a gram per gram basis. Hydrogen is one of the other main four elements that make up the body mass of a plant, it is obtained by splitting the water molecule. As if photosynthesis was a form of nuclear fission. Oxygen is also a very high proportion of plant tissue, again from air, not nutes. Nitrogen is the final top four in mass contribution, it does indeed come from nutes. The only one of the top four.

Now for Magnesium, the metal that catches fire. When sunlight hits the magnesium molecule in the middle of the chlorophyl, it "sparks" the photosynthetic reaction. As if Magnesium was somehow harnessing sunlight, it causes the plant to accumulate carbon. when we later burn the plant, the sparks of sunlight energy that were used to assemble the carbon that built the plant tissue is released as fire

btw, the hemoglobin molecule, which makes blood red, has the same chemical structure as chlorophyl, with one exception, in Hemoglobin, Iron replaces the Magnesium. the result is that the Iron molecule "oxydizes" and captures Oxygen from the lungs, which is then delivered to other cells by the blood stream.

In the case of a plant, oxygen is dissolved in water that bathes the roots.. the roots inhale the oxygen, as through the gills of a fish..

but back to your question
do the additives have benefits?
yes, but not if they are misused

for example PK 13-14 is great stuff, but it is very potent, and needs to be tailored to particular phases of maturation

the recipes I give as one size fits all, work great, dont need flushing, and produce healthy plants.

people who tweak their nutes for different stages of growth, if not overdone, also produce perfectly good medicine.

to me, this has come to imply that the nutes really dont matter as much as we might like. for example, the plant will be happy within a range of nutes, and they will take what they need, as long as there is no single completely missing essential ingredient, such as N, or P or K or Mg..

not to ramble further, you asked a great question, does a single product have everything, Yes. The plants needs for oxygen, carbon and water are more critical than the need for nutes additives. (as long as you use the recipes I offer at full strength when under full strength light, even on small plants)

resist the temptation to reinvent the nutrient program for cannabis. Instead, know people who control their plants environment well, get 2 pounds a light, even from a single nutrient with no additives.

hth
Lucas

Eijneb · Aug 1, 2008

Very nice write-up brotha man. And a nice consolidation of all the info regarding this regiment. I myself will be running this style on the next grow, and look forward to reading the responses.

~fvk~ · Aug 1, 2008

This is a good thread. I'm debating whether to switch over to Canna or GH Flora from the Earth Juice line... I smoke ciggarettes and those are grown with radioactive ooze so I figured I'm going to ditch the organic for higher yields and "cleaner" nutes. It's nice to know that your smoke is grown purely but as far as resale goes, I don't live near any medical clubs so nobody gives a flying fuck about organic... They just want "dro" and "kush." Bahaha...

Anyways, the simplicity of the formula is very enticing... I've never really looked into the Lucas formula but I've seen it mentioned by quite a few people who have been happy with it. I was wondering if this formula is pretty much the end all for all strains or will it have to be adjusted according to strain? When I think of it, it doesn't take long to assume that it'd have to be adjusted according to strain... But I haven't seen anything mentioned about it so far so I don't know.

What's a good baseline for the PPM of the water you mix with? I keep mine at 200 PPM with half R/O and half tap. I ask this because I've seen "Hardwater" Flora Micro and I'm assuming most people just buy regular Micro.

Also, how critical is it to add epsom salts for the greatest effectiveness of the formula? I've also seen a lot of shit about epsom and coco. Wouldn't adding a little bit of Botanicare Sweet pretty much serve the same purpose if it's worked into the formula?

But yeah if anyone wants to try to sell me on either of the nutes I mentioned you're more than welcome to. Please get me off the bat shit. :violin:

Edit: My Sweet says 10 ml will achieve 50 PPM of Magnesium, 75 PPM of Sulfur, and 2 PPM of Iron. So what do you think about adding a tsp of Sweet instead? It's derived from epsom and ferrous sulfate to begin with.

JITAMON · Aug 1, 2008

ALoha

Thanks for the kind words Eijneb, I wish you success in taking your garden to the next level. ~fvk~ go back and read what Lucas has to say in the post before this, you will find your answer about the additives. :rasta:

Here is Lucas going furthur with his thoughts on additives:

" I honestly don't think any of the additives are "bad" unless they are used in combination's that create overdoses or pH problems.

I don't think ANY additives are necessary, but otoh, I don't doubt that they can be used to help the grower feel more interactive, without causing harm, and possibly even being helpful to the plants metabolism.

therefore, Im not going to go as far as to call any additive a snake oil, just unnecessary.

given the choice that an additive could be good, bad, or neutral, I think they can be used to produce any of the 3 possible results.

Of course, if you dont use the additive, there is no chance that the bad or neutral result will occur. And if you buy a complete nutrient, many of which now contain Humics, then there is no need to add additional additives.

otoh, Im sure there are many people who have developed a feel for a combination of ingredients, including humics and or fulvic acids, that works for them in combination with other products, to build a combination of products that meets the needs of the plants, just like a one bottle commercial product can.

What I most discourage, is the use of additives to remedy problems, that are actually caused by environment, instead of nutrition defficiencies or overdoses.

One of the most common overused additives is Clearex. It is used to remove excess nutes, after a feel based grower has overdosed their plants with additives like PK 13-14. Unfortunately, I have seen regular and repeated learning curves in people who get their plants so waterlogged from flushing them, that it is no longer possible for the plants to survive. The roots die, the pH drops, the leaves curl, and the grower starts looking for better additives. The real problem in this example, is over watering, after overfeeding.

The flushing additive did absolutely nothing but allow the grower to mess with their plants even more often, but the plants dont appreciate being water logged.

see my drift?

as to your original question, Im sure you or someone else willing to risk a crop on an experiment, could come up with a recipe that uses humics and fulvic additives, without hurting the plants. I doubt though, that the use of any additive will increase the yield of a garden beyond what could be done without the additives."

hth
Lucas

As to what baseline ppm I use for water, that would be 0-5 ppm r/o water from the glacier water machine at the local store. Our tap water here is 397 ppm. Way outa range. The glacier machine costs $.25/gallon , we pick up 20-25 gallons a week. That works out to $ 5-6.25 a week. $80-90 for a whole cycle. Since we don't have a R/O unit right now this is how we get our R/O water. Nobody even blinks at me when i pull up and fill my 5 gallon water jugs.Neighbors could care less.We all take turns going to get water. For those that cant get your own, find out if you can get delivery. They will bring it right to ya. If your home water is so wacked you would not feed it to you plants, think about how healthier you will feel if you too drank low ppm water. Here is what Lucas says about water:

"hard tap water is problematic, over 200ppm, it will raise pH, forcing the use of potentially too much P as pH down."

This makes total sense. The whole point of the Lucas formula is to find the ideal range of nutrients so that they don't lock each other out, thus deficiency's appear.
I recommend to use more R/O water to drop baseline to 100ppm, if you choose to use some tap water. If using all R/O is not a problem I highly recommend using that. Here is Lusas's reply when asked about hard water. < At what ppm or ec do you recommend people get a RO system?>

at 350ppm or above, which is right where you are.. (.7 conversion)

or, you can keep your water, and use Flora Micro for Hardwater, instead of FloraNova..

the only issue is pH.. if you find it hard to keep pH below 6.0, which will happen over time as your hardwater calcium builds up, then you may need to change the res before a full crop cycle is done..

I do think its possible to go full crop cycle without changing the res.. RO water just makes it easier, because it does not raise pH the way tap water does.. eventually, too much pH down can also be a problem..

so judge by the pH activity.. whether you need to dump your reservoir..

Then use full strength nutes following the Lucas formula. Here is what Lucas has to say:

"don't over water, and don't overfeed"

Here is what Head has to say about the Mg and his application of the Modified Lucas formula for coco coir. When asked if he uses Epsom salts his reply was

" yes... but 1/2 as much... most likely not enough to make a real difference... I leave it out sometimes..."

Now Head's formula dos not include any Epsom salts at all. This goes to show when all the nutrients are in a synergistic balance nutrient lockout does not occur and maximum growth and prosperity is possible.
~fvk~, I was wondering what medium you choose to grow in? This can influence what brand of ferts is better for your situation. What is your current formula? Knowing this will help me get an understanding of where you are now. This will help us help you. :rasta:

JITAMON · Aug 2, 2008

So for all those that choose to use the modified formula and/or additives. Here are some #'s I crunched using this calculator:
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
Here are some additive's first:

Calmag+ 960ml 975.2g total weight
2ml/g 5ml/g 7ml/g

N-2% 11 27 38
Mg-1.2% 6 16 23
Ca-3.2% 17 43 59

Liquid Karma 960ml 952.5g total weight
5ml/g 10ml/g

N-0.1% 1 3
P-0.1% 1 1
K-0.5% 5 11

Floralicious bloom 946ml 997.9g total weight
5ml/g ( recommended strength)
N-1% 14
P-1% 6
K-1% 12

Floraliscious + 118ml 134g total weight
1ml/g
N-2% 6
P-0.8% 1
K-0.02% trace

Advanced nutrient's B-52 fertilizer booster
5ml/g
N-2% 27
P-1% 6
K-4% 45

Advanced nutrients Overdrive flower ripener
10ml/g
N-1% 27
P-3% 59
K-4% 90
Mg-0.92% 25

Advanced nutrients Big Bud liquid bloom booster
10ml/g
N-1% trace
P-3% 24
K-4% 90
Mg-0.7% 19

Now here is some base nutrient formulas:

Flora Nova Bloom one part plant food
5ml/g 6ml/g 7ml/g 8ml/g
N-4% 77 92 108 123
P-8% 67 81 94 108
K-7% 64 134 157 180
Mg-2% 39 46 54 62
Ca-4% 77 92 108 123

Advanced Nutrients Sensi Grow formula part A+B with equal parts of each/g
5ml/g 8ml/g
N-6.2% 84 134
P-2.2% 13 21
K-5.7% 64 102
Mg-1% 14 22
Ca-2.5% 34 54

Canna coco part A+B with equal parts of each/g
8ml
N-5% 121
P-4% 42
K-3% 60
Mg-1% 24

One can now understand how coco coir is thought to be a cal/mg hog. Most people are using a base formula that is lacking in certain parts. This is why one see's nutrient deficiency's. Understanding these ratio's explains how Rez and Head ( that sound like resin head. lol :laughing:

get the success they do following their modified formula. :rasta:

gregor_mendel · Aug 2, 2008

Also, how critical is it to add epsom salts for the greatest effectiveness of the formula? I've also seen a lot of shit about epsom and coco. Wouldn't adding a little bit of Botanicare Sweet pretty much serve the same purpose if it's worked into the formula?

I am using h3ad's formula with no epsom. I am starting week six (of ten) and have some rust spots.

Sweet is epsom salt, is it not? (dissolved)

~fvk~ · Aug 2, 2008

Nice. Thanks for the answers Jitamon. I use Botanicare CocoGro. I don't really have an exact formula as of right now, I just try to read the plants. I'm feeding some seedlings very lightly at the moment with 1.5 ML of EJ grow a gallon at 200ppm. This is with 200ppm base water with Grow added, bubbled for 24 hours with about 230ppms at the end, and then diluted back to 200ppm with R/O. They're doing fine for now. I figured I'd finish these with the EJ line and then get either Canna or GH and see how things compare. Still, even if I liked how the EJ does for a full run, I doubt that I'd go back to such rank and nasty nutes. I haven't had a chance to flower in Coco yet so I'm not too sure how the Bloom will do. One thing that I do like about it is the fact that it has no nitrogen in it...

Anyways, when I do switch, I'm really looking forward to not have to bubble the feed water. It'll just make things so much easier. I also won't have to use like 321308523423 reservoirs. Two for the drip systems, two for the two different stages of the drip systems, and one for base water. Shit's gets annoying.

But yeah, you've never had a Cal deficiency using pure R/O and the formula with GH nutes? I think I'd be kind of uncomfortable depending solely on the Micro for Cal/Mag but if it works for others than hell... I think the Canna nutes were made to be used with tapwater so I think I'd be good on the 1/2 and 1/2 there but like I said before, I'm not sure which brand I'm wanting to cross over to. Both seem to have their advantages.

BTW, how long do you flush for? I saw Head saying something about bad taste with not a long enough flush plus being able to "taste" the Micro if it's used past a certain time. Couldn't that be due to using nitrogen up until flush? I'm not in anyway a pro but two weeks of flushing in Coco seems pretty extensive. In the formula that Rez uses, he eventually works the Micro out of the formula which is something I'd like to do as well. But is the Kool Bloom used to bring the nutrient ratios closer to the formula again? I also saw that Head does a plain watering every other day and that's not really something that I want to do considering it'd be a PITA with my setup. I'm sure that this is preference and not a necessity?

Sorry I have so many questions man. If you couldn't tell, I just started actually looking into the formula's after you posted this thread, ha. I had been wondering about this Lucas Formula for awhile though.

Gregor - On the bottle it says epsom salt, ferrous sulfate, and cane sugar. It's pretty much epsom salt in liquid form. I've never had to use it yet. What is your basewater water PPM?

gregor_mendel · Aug 3, 2008

Gregor - On the bottle it says epsom salt, ferrous sulfate, and cane sugar. It's pretty much epsom salt in liquid form. I've never had to use it yet. What is your basewater water PPM?

Base is about 10 (RO)
Post your guaranteed analysis, net weight, and volume of Sweet. We can figure out exactly what to add to bring your Mg to 60ppm, 70ppm, or whatever you want.

Grizz · Aug 3, 2008

God this is interesting, Im a old dirt head that switched to coco about a year ago. Im running a stadium grow perpetual style, I have a 55 gl res and water to waste that I use on my flower beds outside. Im using canna a & b at one quart of each when res is empty, tap water is at ph 7.0 and adjusted between 5.8 and 6.2 . run off ph stays right at 6.2, can I improve on what Im doing with the lucas formula ie .. are they getting to much or not enough? sorry for my lack of knowledge on this subject , Ihave never checked ppm and don't really understand it.

~fvk~ · Aug 3, 2008

gregor_mendel said:
Base is about 10 (RO)
Post your guaranteed analysis, net weight, and volume of Sweet. We can figure out exactly what to add to bring your Mg to 60ppm, 70ppm, or whatever you want.

Guaranteed Minimum Analysis:
N 0%
Phosphate 0%
Potash 0%
Mg 1.50%
Sulfur 2.00%
Iron 0.06%

10 ml of Sweet per gallon of water will achieve 50ppm Mg, 75ppm Sulfur, and 2ppm Iron.

8 oz volume bottle
.52 lbs net weight

gregor_mendel · Aug 3, 2008

10 ml of Sweet per gallon of water will achieve 50ppm Mg, 75ppm Sulfur, and 2ppm Iron.

Looks like you did the work already.

I would add 5 mL per gallon if you are using h3ad's formula.

That gets Mg up to 66 ppm. Plenty.

JITAMON · Aug 5, 2008

Aloha everyone :joint This is for sure an interesting thread. Let's go over what we know. The basic's, no numbers.:

1:

The Lucas formula is simply a ratio of nutrients. This ratio best expresses vigorous growth and bloom in most cannabis plants. It is that simple. If we get our nutrient profile correct, grower error is thus diminished. This formula is a BASE to start with. If one has a solid foundation then furthur growth is solid.

2:

Coco coir has unique properties that need to be taken into consideration for a successful grow. Watering, feeding and the coco itself form a symbiotic bond, and that manifests as explosive growth or nutrient deficient growth. Same as you would see in straight water culture. The plants reaction is almost immediate.

3:

The correct ratio of nutrients is influenced by different scenarios. Some of which are:
1: What we choose as our medium
2: How we choose to water
3: Stage of plant growth.
The Lucas formula again is a base to start with. A proven base to start with. The ultimate is to be able to read ones plants and know why the plant is where it is. To know what the plants needs are. In every stage of growth.
To be able to get to that point one needs a base to start out with. I feel the Lucas formula is that base. Know where home is, then we can wander. If we have no base then we are just guessing.

That is my 1,2,three's :joint:

Taking it too the next level!!

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