Register ICMag Forum Menu Features Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
You are viewing our:
in:
Forums > Marijuana Growing > Growroom Designs & Equipment > Growroom Lighting > The Truth on Flouro vs HID

Thread Title Search
Click for quality CMH grow lights at Ceramic Solutions!
Post Reply
The Truth on Flouro vs HID Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-22-2008, 08:34 AM #1
Thundurkel
Just Call me Urkle!!

Thundurkel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: A tree house in Humboldt with a few gennys
Posts: 3,855
Thundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of light
The Truth on Flouro vs HID

Whats up everybody?? So I have been doing a lot of research on Fluoro lighting for growing instead of HID and think this is a good place for people to discuss(even tho it's been done many times) and post results from CFL and T5,T8, and T12's I will be posting a bunch of info in here for new growers and old to really see the facts of why fluorescent lighting is better for plants and safer for your eyes and freedom...

All comments, opinions, and pics of gardens are welcome... I've always been a quality instead of quantity kind of guy and I'm seeing and reading about flouro's pumping out better quality bud so let the thread begin!




Fluoro and HPS (HID) - The Truth

The difference between Fluorescent and High Intensity Discharge lamps, and it's significance in the application to plant growing seems rarely understood and/or explained honestly.

So, we've tried to do this, nlite manufacture and supply all types of lighting, so we do not have favorites, in our opinion, all photon generators (lamps) are are equal & beautiful.
Like people, some light types may be better at different applications to others.

Fluorescent's create light in a completely different way to HID's.
You should not expect HID bulbs to emit anywhere near the QUALITY of light that fluorescent's do, and
you should not expect fluorescent's to emit anywhere near the INTENSITY of light HID's do.

If you look at the SPDs' of many HID lamps (sodium or metal halide), actually they all look very much the same... in terms of PUR or PAR or proportional distribution of wavelength energy.
If you look at a SPD of fluorescent lamp, particularly customized like the nlite PURple range, they all look very different. [more SPDs]

Fluorescents create light by passing an electrical current through mercury vapor, producing UV light. The UV causes the phosphor powder coating on the inside of the tube to fluoresce, thus emitting light in the visible spectrum. With different phosphors generating different wavelengths of light, the colours can be controlled and customized by varying the combinations of phosphors used. Because the light is emitted from the phosphors, which are spread over a large surface area, coating the entire inside of the lamp, the light is not intense.

HID's produce light by passing electrical current through different metal vapors, NO coating of phosphor in the way , but only gases which are controllable, safe and reliable can be used. So, the colours (different wavelengths of light) are severely constrained by the limited types of metal vapors that can be used. However, the radiation that is emitted is very INTENSE and often includes copious amounts of Infra Red for you to burn things with, like plant tops.

Now, also consider Infra Red heat is not effected by convection or conduction cooling technology, (electric fans and water cooled"cool tubes") it is radiation, not conduction or convection. This is why the INTENSITY of the (poor light quality) HID lamp can be used to cover large areas, if you bring the lamp too close you will radiate your plants with horrid IR heat, HID lamps and all ballasts must be kept a safe distance away from the plants to avoid IR radiation damage.
Type of lighting

Average distance between light and plant tops
Fluorescent - T5HO - any wattage


3cm to 10cm
HPS 400w

30cm to 40cm
HPS 600w

50cm to 60cm
HPS 1000w

70cm to 80cm





Distance: The quantity of light rapidly diminishes as the distance increases in relation to the light source. If the lights are too far away, the plants will grow tall, less sturdy and will be less productive. If the lights are too close, growth is impede, the plants will wither and dry and may even be burned if the area is poorly ventilated.
Reflective Material: Another topic riddled with fairy tales, it might help you to know percentage of reflection for Aluminum foil, white enamel paint and white plastic is 70 to 80%, for Matt white paint it is 85 to 90% and for Mylar it is 90 to 95%.

Fluorescent lighting needs more attendance from the grower than HID because the light needs to be moved up, often on a daily basis, so that the optimum distance (about 5cm) can be maintained as the plant grows. Because most of us have the electricity, space and environmental equipment needed for the "big rough" HID, that's what most people use.

Fluorescent lighting appeals to HID users as a way of supplementing the colours lacking in HID lighting systems

Strictly nlite fluorescent only example: 10 x 200w (2000w) nlite PURple red lamps produced same yield as crop did with 3 x 600w (1800w) HPS, but the grower reported that although quantity/yield was fractionally down, the QUALITY was up massively, because there is so little heat, all of the "qualitative" characteristics of the plant tops are not "evaporated" by IR heat. this is especially relevant during the flowering stage when plant surfaces in the flower region are particularly photoponically sensitive and vulnerable to humidity and over-heating problems.

Nanometric Scale - Visible Light Spectrum

The visible light spectrum is from Violet to Magenta with Green in the middle, measured in nanometers (nm). Purple is not a single colour of visible light, it is 2 colours, blue and red.


Colour Rendering Index - Not for measuring critical light for Plants


As soon as you see the picture above, know that it has nothing to do with plants, unless you are particularly concerned about what humans see, it is the root of all ignorance and "creative salesmanship". This chart is frequently used by those wishing to mislead plant growers into buying "gay & pretty looks" rather than useful radiation.

CRI rating is important when checking your clothes, especially separate tops, trousers or skirts and to ensure that the colours are not influenced by the light source, and the general "made-up" opinion of what good colour is. Anyone who knows their CRI is also well qualified to distinguish the subtle tonal differences found in navy blue blouses and dresses.

To help indicate how colors will appear under different light sources, a system was devised some years ago that mathematically compares how a light source shifts the location of eight specified pastel colors on a version of the C.I.E. color space as compared to the same colors lighted by a reference source of the same Color Temperature. If there is no change in appearance, the source in question is given a CRI of 100 by definition. From 2000K to 5000K, the reference source is the Black Body Radiator and above 5000K, it is an 'agreed upon' form of daylight.

An incandescent lamp, virtually by definition, has a Color Rendering Index (CRI) close to 100. This does not mean that an incandescent lamp is a perfect color rendering light source. It is not. It is very weak in blue, as anyone who has tried to sort out navy blues, royal blues and black under low levels of incandescent lighting could tell you. On the other hand, outdoor north sky daylight at 7500K is weak in red, so it isn't a "perfect" color rendering source either and would just ruin subtle contrasts in your Pinks, that just wont do. Yet, would you believe it, it also has a CRI of 100 by definition.

CRI is useful in specifying color if it is used within its limitations. Originally, CRI was developed to compare continuous spectrum sources whose CRI's were above 90 because below 90 it is possible to have two sources with the same CRI, but which render color very differently. At the same time, the colors lighted by sources whose CRI's differ by 5 points or more may look the same. Colors viewed under sources with line spectra such as mercury, metal halide or high pressure sodium lamps, may actually look better than their CRI would indicate. However, some exotic fluorescent lamp colors may have very high CRI's, while substantially distorting some particular object color.

Technically, CRI's can only be compared for sources that have the same Color Temperatures. However, as a general rule "The Higher The Better"; light sources with high (80-100) CRI's tend to make things look better to humans than light sources with lower CRI's.

Why still use CRI if it has so many drawbacks? It's the only internationally agreed upon color rendering system that provides some guidance. It will be still be used until the scientific community can develop a better system to describe what we really see. It is an indicator of the relative color rendering ability of a source and should only be used as such. Plants, even lady ones, are not concerned with CRI ratings.

Kelvin Scale - Not for measuring critical light for Plants
People talking about black body's and radiators ? What are they talking about? Usually they don't really know, and even more worrying , they never explain it properly.
Based upon the definitions of the Centigrade scale and the experimental evidence that absolute zero is -273.15°C, thus 373.15K is the same as 100°C. The Colour Temperature represents the colour that Carbon is when heated to that temperature. So when carbon is heated to 2000K it looks "red" hot. Carbon does not look green at any temperature, if it did, it's what we would call "white Hot". So remembering that Kelvin is used to measure an 'overall' colour, it's ok as a guide only, to differentiate between PURple and Green, Kelvin is useless.Even the Diamond & Gemstone industry has "seen the light" when it comes to Kelvin....


LUX Meters - Not for measuring critical light for Plants


In 1924, the Commission de l'Eclairage (CIE) created a standard photopic luminosity function or 'standard observer' for photometric measurements. For the human eye, an efficiency of 1 was assigned to the wavelength of 555 nanometers (nm). The logarithm of this function is the 'relative visual brightness'. Nothing to do with plants, all to do with the response of the human eye.

All LUX meters are biased, measuring power and lumens based on the phototropic curve. On the PURple chart below you can see the large phototropic curve (the green line) peaking at around 550nm. So when you put a lux meter under a green light (white & bright looking to humans) you get a massive reading on your LUX meter. The less well informed assume that lots of lumens here are good, and over look the fact that all plants reflect at least 50% of this away, which is why plants look green.

Now if you put the same LUX meter under a blue or red light, which is the same power e.g. 200w, instead of 20,000 Lumens you will measure 10,000 Lumens. The red or blue light will actually look dimmer to you, because you are a human. But in reality, the red and blue light is most useful to plants, so the lumens rating is useless for measuring useful plant light. Micro-Einstein's are a better way to measure useful light but even these measuring instruments suffer from (more linear) biasing [more]. We recommend 300 to 500 microeinsteins/square meter/second (umol/m2/s) for growing plants.

Illuminance: the luminous power incident per unit area of a surface. One lumen per square meter is one lux. One lumen per square foot is one foot-candle.

Lux: an illuminance equal to one lumen per square meter.

Lumen: by definition there are 683 lumens per watt of radiant power at a wavelength of 555 nm (wavelength for green light).

Lumens are for humans to judge and measure the brightness of mainly green light (that looks bright white to humans), which is also the the colour that plants reject the most, that's why chlorophyll is green.

Purple

Green (~550nm) for humans and plants like it blue (~450nm) and red (~660nm), with a bit of yellow to make chlorophyll. Always more than 50% of greenish light is reflected from plants and not useful.
Green Lumens are for humans, PURple is for plants

Yellow=Plant Growth White=Purple Spectrum Green=Human Senstivity

he Photosynthesis Action Spectrum is commonly accepted to be between 350 to 700 nm, thus most fluorescent lights made for domestic use emit near 100% PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation). Study of Photosynthetically Useful Radiation (PUR) created an evolution in nurturing light technology, applying absorption theory and combining unique techniques for preparing phosphors, the PURple nlite. PURple is generally accepted by the experienced as “the best" fluorescent plant light. nlites emit most of their light in the wavelengths that are more efficient for photosynthesis, namely the red and blue ends of the visible spectrum. As expected, because we all really like green, these light sources can look dim to the human eye and consequently have poor lumen ratings. Also, their colour temperature (K) and CRI ratings have little, if any, meaning [more]. PURple nlites were not designed to be "seen" by humans, but to efficiently stimulate plants with Photosynthetically Useful Radiation (PUR).

"why the green spike?" - Phosphor/metal prices in China are 3x more for red than blue and cost of production would increase to reduce the green spike. Also, without the green spike, the light would "look" so "dim" to humans they would not want to buy it. So, the green spike is to keep the costs competitive and make it look bright to humans.

Purple
Green (~550nm) for humans and plants like it blue (~450nm) and red (~660nm), with a bit of yellow to make chlorophyll. Always more than 50% of greenish light is reflected from plants and not useful.

Green Lumens are for humans, PURple is for plants

The Photosynthesis Action Spectrum is commonly accepted to be between 350 to 700 nm, thus most fluorescent lights made for domestic use emit near 100% PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation). Study of Photosynthetically Useful Radiation (PUR) created an evolution in nurturing light technology, applying A-Wave theory and combining unique techniques for preparing phosphors, the PURple nurturelite. PURple is generally accepted by the experienced as “the best" fluorescent plant light. nurturelites emit most of their light in the wavelengths that are more efficient for photosynthesis, namely the red and blue ends of the visible spectrum. As expected, because we all really like green, these light sources can look dim to the human eye and consequently have poor lumen ratings. Also, their colour temperature (K) and CRI ratings have little, if any, meaning [more]. PURple nuturelites were not designed to be "seen" by humans, but to efficiently stimulate plants with Photosynthetically Useful Radiation (PUR).

When you remove the green from the emission the light appears dimmer, but most importantly, the actual amount of Photosynthetically Useful Radiation is actually a lot higher.

Need to know why the plant growth curve is purple, mainly red and blue


Purple light
The only other lights we found designed on these principles are used by NASA and they are very expensive Light Emitting Diodes (LED) systems.



PURple for flowers in space, red & blue LEDs systems. 670 nm (red) 470 nm (blue).
By combining the absorbencies of both Chlorophyll A and Chlorophyll B and to a lesser extent the Carotenoids, a wave of Absorbency can be identified. This is the theoretical underpinning for designing the target Spectral Distribution of a PURple nurturelite Lamp. Continuous research of 21st century technology and proven practitioner findings are essential for development of products that are truly 'useful', theory alone is not enough, but nonetheless we have plenty of it!

Why is everything going PURple?
Red light is very important to plant reproduction. Photochrome pigments absorb the red and far red portions of the light spectrum and regulate seed germination, root development, tuber and bulb formation, dormancy, flowering and fruit production. Therefore, red light is essential for stimulation of flowering and fruiting.

Blue light stimulates chlorophyll production more than any other colour, encouraging thick leaves, strong stems and compact vegetative growth. excellent for plants cropped before flowering stage, such as lettuce and cress.

Carotenoids, the yellow-orange pigment in plants, absorb blue light and control leaf fall and fruit ripening. Although over 50% of green light can be reflected away by the plant, carotenoids are able make very good use of blue/green light. The Carotenoids and Chlorophyll A molecules transfer their electronic excitation energy to Chlorophyll B molecules, leading to the production of chemical energy. Riboflavin, containing another pigment, absorbs violet light and influences phototropism, consequently directional growth and movement in the foliage of the plant. The plant canopy will be more capable of efficiently positioning itself for the absorbance of photosynthetically useful radiation (PUR). Another benefit is possible, many believe that Near UV light, at the correct wavelength, is highly beneficial for flowering, it can enhance their appearance and fragrance, also producing higher quality fruit."
Basil Growers use PURple for maximum trichomes and maximum resin - essential oils

3-Dimensional Lighting for plants - The nlite Sabre is pioneering the next generation of fluorescent light application. Finally, the place for fluorescent lighting to be most effective for plants can be reached. Now you can safely hang the power of PURple right in amongst your plants and pets. The photoponic effect exceeds all other lighting for plants we have ever tried and we are very excited about our initial results. The unique poly carbonate sabre sheaf distributes the heat for safe operation, surface temperature is below 25C, plants can grow round and up the sabre using it as support.

There ya go!!! Hope this answers some questions and helps with choosing light for new growers or those that are looking to switch but haven't seen good reasons to do so, enjoy.....
__________________
THAT DUDE WHO PROVED EM WRONG!!! S/O DR.BUDGREENGENES
The Vault: Truck's Genetics - Urkel x Crystal Trident, Dream Cross(Blue Dream x CT)... Bodhi Seeds- Yo Mama... Reservation Labs - Green Crack x SCK, Astili, Mucho Mango... Bobblebeans - Sour Bubble x Grape Skunk, Purps x Grape Skunk... ThunderKid's Collection Cherry Kush S1's, Lemon Larry(Swerves Cut) x Cherry Kush, Blowfish S1(only have 1 of em wish me luck)

Last edited by Thundurkel; 07-22-2008 at 09:24 AM.. Reason: adding to the info
Thundurkel is offline Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 08:50 AM #2
its just sky fi
Guest

Posts: n/a
very informative, where can you pickup the nlite purple spectrum bulbs? Everything I'm using in my cab is either Warm white in the flowering cab, soft white or 6500k spectrum in the veg/mother chamber...
Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 08:54 AM #3
Thundurkel
Just Call me Urkle!!

Thundurkel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: A tree house in Humboldt with a few gennys
Posts: 3,855
Thundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of light
So far just the company in Germany called nlites but they are on the forefront of fluoro's and plasma lighting for growing and the results are wonderful.. Those purple CFL and T5's are the shit I'm posting all the info in a bit

Thanks for reading
__________________
THAT DUDE WHO PROVED EM WRONG!!! S/O DR.BUDGREENGENES
The Vault: Truck's Genetics - Urkel x Crystal Trident, Dream Cross(Blue Dream x CT)... Bodhi Seeds- Yo Mama... Reservation Labs - Green Crack x SCK, Astili, Mucho Mango... Bobblebeans - Sour Bubble x Grape Skunk, Purps x Grape Skunk... ThunderKid's Collection Cherry Kush S1's, Lemon Larry(Swerves Cut) x Cherry Kush, Blowfish S1(only have 1 of em wish me luck)
Thundurkel is offline Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 08:58 AM #4
its just sky fi
Guest

Posts: n/a
Cool, I'll be sure to check it out... I just hung all the cleat sockets in my box, and am going to wire them up tonight hopefully if I can figure it out... ELectric work isn't my thing. I just want to make sure my box is going to be giving me proper yields with what lights i have... maybe I should order some of these... I'll post pics of my box in my thread in micro grows in a bit, maybe you could take a look to see what spectrums I might need to add thunder? You seem to know quite a bit about this Im cramming 100% of my free time into my cab, and research for it, so I'm not trying to be lazy
Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 08:59 AM #5
satty
Member

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 102
satty is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up

GR8 read my friend.
__________________
One more day...
satty is offline Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 09:04 AM #6
its just sky fi
Guest

Posts: n/a
checked out nlite's website, but can't seem to order from there... Checked their distributors and none are listed for the USA, can you order from a foreign vendor or is there somewhere else I can order these?
Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 09:15 AM #7
green_grow
Senior Member

green_grow's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,162
green_grow has a spectacular aura aboutgreen_grow has a spectacular aura aboutgreen_grow has a spectacular aura aboutgreen_grow has a spectacular aura aboutgreen_grow has a spectacular aura about
two things ...

first : the grower had 200 watts MORE flourescent than he did HPS.
second : quality is pretty subjective; one grower using one grow doesnt prove much.

i should also note that i am a fan of flourescents, both tube and cfl, so am not in any way bashing flourescents; just putting my 2 cents in.
__________________
The Germinator
green_grow is offline Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 09:16 AM #8
Thundurkel
Just Call me Urkle!!

Thundurkel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: A tree house in Humboldt with a few gennys
Posts: 3,855
Thundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of light
Not sure I'm looking for a way to get them as well... I'm sure there's a way, I would love to grow some purple under purple light (yea I'm fucking cheezy)
__________________
THAT DUDE WHO PROVED EM WRONG!!! S/O DR.BUDGREENGENES
The Vault: Truck's Genetics - Urkel x Crystal Trident, Dream Cross(Blue Dream x CT)... Bodhi Seeds- Yo Mama... Reservation Labs - Green Crack x SCK, Astili, Mucho Mango... Bobblebeans - Sour Bubble x Grape Skunk, Purps x Grape Skunk... ThunderKid's Collection Cherry Kush S1's, Lemon Larry(Swerves Cut) x Cherry Kush, Blowfish S1(only have 1 of em wish me luck)
Thundurkel is offline Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 09:20 AM #9
Thundurkel
Just Call me Urkle!!

Thundurkel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: A tree house in Humboldt with a few gennys
Posts: 3,855
Thundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of lightThundurkel is a glorious beacon of light
Green Grow - I see your point, I've been checking this out for a few months, what makes me believe them is they make really good MH and HPS bulbs as well so the company knows both sides pretty well IMO but like I said all comments are welcome so say what you will but for the haters just wait and see cuz technology moves so quick ...
__________________
THAT DUDE WHO PROVED EM WRONG!!! S/O DR.BUDGREENGENES
The Vault: Truck's Genetics - Urkel x Crystal Trident, Dream Cross(Blue Dream x CT)... Bodhi Seeds- Yo Mama... Reservation Labs - Green Crack x SCK, Astili, Mucho Mango... Bobblebeans - Sour Bubble x Grape Skunk, Purps x Grape Skunk... ThunderKid's Collection Cherry Kush S1's, Lemon Larry(Swerves Cut) x Cherry Kush, Blowfish S1(only have 1 of em wish me luck)
Thundurkel is offline Quote


Old 07-22-2008, 01:04 PM #10
Cozy Amnesia
Guest

Posts: n/a
Good thread, I'm excited now to see what purple can do in the future and will hopefully partake.

Where did you get this info from? Links?
Quote


Post Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:56 AM.




This site is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
You must be of legal age to view ICmag and participate here.
All postings are the responsibility of their authors.
Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.