[HempHut]

I lieu of an AF forum, I figure this one is the closest.

Has anyone had an AF plant from a stable line not AF? In particular, I'm talking about LR#2 from femmed seeds that are now six weeks from breaking soil with no signs of flowering or even sex. These plants are outdoors and were germed on site.

I was thinking the seeds might have gotten mixed up at distribution, but one plant displayed all signs of being the micro phenotype (it died at 2.5 weeks due to not being able to handle a transplant into the hot soil mix, but it looked exactly like photos of micros I've seen and was much smaller than all the rest at that point).

So, now I'm wondering if producing the femmed seeds somehow lost the AF genetics. Is it possible the AF gene(s) need two distinct parents of each sex in order to be passed on properly or with 100% success?

Other than that, I'm not sure what's up. The plants have been growing slowly as the weather has been cool and overcast for the most part, so I figured they were just a bit slow, but now six weeks are up and still nothing. They've shown a lot of stretch, but mostly from the ground to the first set of three's (6 - 8 inches). Beyond that the nodes seem closely spaced. They've got five's out now.

I'm still unclear if AF's flower by chronological age or actual stage of growth. i.e. if an AF plant grown in ideal conditions flowers at 3 weeks does the same one grown in poor conditions still flower in 3 weeks or must it reach the same stage of growth as the one grown in ideal conditions before flowering?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

My experience with AF strains (solely LR#2) is that they flower based on age. All other factors influence a plant's size when it does flower, but flowering has always kicked in at the same time. I've never had one do what you describe--very interesting. Sorry I can't offer more.

[HempHut]

Originally Posted by socioecologist

My experience with AF strains (solely LR#2) is that they flower based on age. All other factors influence a plant's size when it does flower, but flowering has always kicked in at the same time. I've never had one do what you describe--very interesting. Sorry I can't offer more.

Actually, that was very helpful. And that's what I figured, too. Which is why you want to get them as well developed as possible in the first few weeks so you can get a better yield.

Yeah, it's weird. This is actually four plants all doing the same thing. So it's not even like it's a very rare anomaly -- it's all of them.

I'm wondering if there just hasn't been enough light for them to "power" a flowering stage. They've put a stretch on up to the first set of three's, but not really beyond that -- maybe they expended too much energy stretching early on. Could be the temp., too. On average, it's been down to 50F and only up to about 65F during the day.

Thanks for that.

[Luco Cadalora]

Seem's it's lack of light and very low temps are what is causing the slow production of the babes you must live in a cold climate buddy

Hope all goes well

Kind regards

Luco

[Mr.qewk]

Here's something I had saved on the subject.


Originally Posted by mdanzig.

Well, once the AF trait is locked in how could you have any of them not AF?,
--------------------------------

Originally posted by Gunna

Here's my theory MD. Selectively inbreeding for the AF trait is merely diluting the non-AF genes, not getting ride of them altogether. The problem is that all of the genes are so intricately mixed up together and you can't completely isolate them from eachother (unless you get into genetic engineering). If you could completely isolate the genes by selective breeding, you would be able to produce F2s that were 100% AF from AF F1s, yet you can't. Instead, what you see is a decreasing concentration of non-AFs with each generation, as if the genes responsible are being diluted.

Like a glass of orange juice being diluted with glass after glass of water, you just end up with increasingly diluted orange juice, not pure water. Eventually you will end up with an ocean of extremely diluted orange juice. The orange juice molecules will become so dispersed that it appears as though you have pure water, when in reality you don't. Pure enough for it to be considered pure for all intents and purposes, yet not mathematically pure.

With enough generations of selective inbreeding, you can dilute the non-AF genes enough so that it appears as though the strain is 100% AF. Therefore, for all intents and purposes it is 100%, not in the mathematical sense but in the human scale sense. In other words, occurances of non-AF expression can eventually be made so rare that they never show themselves within a person's lifetime and could therefore be considered as good as 100% AF, on the human scale.

Going on the fact that I had an ML that didn't AF after months of waiting and a few others have reported finding such a rogue seed, I would say that ML probably isn't 100% AF on the human scale yet, although it's approaching it. Unless, the rogue seeds that we grew weren't ML and were the result of a rare, alien pollen grain landing on one of your ML pistills during a seed run, which shouldn't be ruled out. Either way, the best that a breeder can hope to eventually achieve is 100% AF on the human scale, not 100% AF in the mathematical sense.

However, it's just a theory that I was mentioning in passing, until you picked up on that part of my post. I consider >98% AF near enough for growers purposes. What really interests me the most is the aproximate percentage of MD's or S&H's BS seedlings, which didn't AF. One in five? One in ten? The discription on Seedsman states that BS isn't yet 100% AF, so I thought that I'd ask. If that's something that MD or S&H don't wish to disclose publicly at this point then I understand. Thanks.

Gunna

[HempHut]

Thanks for that, Mr.qewk. Interesting stuff.

I still wonder if femming this strain messes with the AF gene(s).

Femmed AF seeds are a fairly recent development. Does anyone know of anyone else running LR#2 from femmed seeds? I would be interested to hear of some other grow reports from people running the same seeds.

That summed up what I was thinking, but it doesn't answer your particular problem. You didn't encounter 1/5 non-AF, but 5/5--that ain't right. Have you tried to 12/12 them?

[HempHut]

Originally Posted by socioecologist

That summed up what I was thinking, but it doesn't answer your particular problem. You didn't encounter 1/5 non-AF, but 5/5--that ain't right. Have you tried to 12/12 them?

They're outdoors, so no chance of that.

It will be interesting to see if they respond to the now shortening days. I went with autos so I could do a quick run and finish early -- hehe, now I'm waiting for photoperiod to shorten and looking at least to September now for finish (if they start at all).

[mdanzig]

Seedsman needs to update his description, because Blue Streak is very close to being fully released, and its 100% AF. Ofcourse except for the one in 5,000 that doesnt auto-flower. That must be a very early description that he didnt update.

[mdanzig]

Btw Mr. Gewk, that was a nice post However, I have never had a M.L. plant not auto-flower, so maybe you can point to the people that are experiencing this, because I have yet to have it happen to me.

Furthermore, once I acheived auto-flowering, I will then inbreed for several generations, so the odds of 5/5 not auto-flowering is a bunch of bull. I put a tremendous amount of time into what I do, so I'm very comfortable with what Ive released, and I know my gear is good, and it does what its suppose to do.