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What would yield more......?

smurfin'herb

smurfin'herb

Registered Cannabis User
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A full 3x6 with 2 600's or.... a full 4x8 with 2 600's? The 4x8 should win right? If you dont think so please explain.

OR... if you dont think that the extra yield of the extra plants on the 4x8 would be worth the time, nutes, and h20 please explain.
Estimates of just how much of an increase in yield this would be are also welcome.
 
FreezerBoy

FreezerBoy

Was blind but now IC Puckbunny in Training
Veteran
Watts = Square feet x 50. A 4x8 with 1200 watts is 37.5 per square foot and so a little weak. The 4x8 will probably yield more but, the 3x6 (at 67 watts per square foot) will yield bigger, frostier buds.
 
smurfin'herb

smurfin'herb

Registered Cannabis User
Veteran
i look at it like this.... If i use a 4x8, i will get the same nice frosty yield of a 3x6 in a 3x6 space inside of the 4x8, and then smaller,less quality buds from around the edges, but they still increase the yield overall vs. a 3x6 alone, where the extra plants would not be present. 3x6=18sq.ft@50watts/sq.ft=900watts so that makes 2 600's over a 3x6=66.7 watts/sq.ft. which is probly more than what is usable by the plant and would not make a significant gram to watt increase as opposed to 900watts, unless co2 is used. Any point much more than 50watts/sq.ft will start cutting down on your gram/watt average imo. i.e. you may be able to get a gram per watt @50watts/sq.ft., but say when you move up to 65+watts/sq.ft. your average starts to decline to say 1/2 gram per watt after 50. These are just numbers that im using to explain this, i am not sure if these numbers are even close what they really are. So in this case, if you had 900watts over a 3x6 and yielded 1 gram/watt (900grams) and then used the same everything but with 1200 watts you would get somethin like 1,050 grams cuz the extra 300watts of light u just added made the plants get 65 watts/sq.ft., therefore giving you a gram/watt all the way up with 900(which is 50watts/sq.ft. equalling 900grams) of the 1200watts over a 3x6 and then a 1/2 gram/watt on the extra 300watts ( which is roughly 15watts/sq.ft extra on top of 50 equalling 150 grams)!
I am also convinced that you can pull more grams/watt with a smaller amt. of watts/sq.ft. than the standard 50! Id say using 35-40 watts/sq.ft. works pretty damn good if your want to increase weight. Quality doesnt go down enough to even notice!
 
00420

00420

full time daddy
Veteran
from my test runs ( 1k's )
its not watts per sqft that matter it intensity.

reason i say this????????.......

in a flat garden ebb & flow buckets/table, soil ect i have used 2k ( 10 x 10 room but used 6 x 6) and hardly got a 1lbs per then by packing more plants in the room ( using 10 x 10 ) YES it yeilded more i got to damn near 2lbs per all the outer plants had "airy bud's" but yeilded more overall...

now the 2nd part of this test...

with 2 1'ks again this time in a vert system ( colisum ) in a 6 x 6 (circle) x 6 high
yes there was a ton of plant's( but i think it could be done with less #'s more veg) as i have seen on here by others....... anyways i hit close to 2.5-3lbs per light....the coilsum is close to 30-32wpersqft but plants are really close to the light and all of them come out super dence.....

again this is a vert system and im not comparing vert/flat just FYIing that with low light (under50wsqft) you CAN get same quality but it takes intensity
 
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smurfin'herb

smurfin'herb

Registered Cannabis User
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i thought the intensity was measured by watts and how many of them were going to be used per sq. ft. of grow space. am i wrong? what do you mean?
 
00420

00420

full time daddy
Veteran
smurfin'herb said:
i thought the intensity was measured by watts and how many of them were going to be used per sq. ft. of grow space. am i wrong? what do you mean?
Click to expand...

it is a way of measuring "watt's" per sqft not "intensity" but at the sametime its the easyest/best way to measure with out high tech gear
if you read PACO'S thread where he measured "intensity" not "wattage" some hood's are better then other's some not by much and others just blow. { :jump: thx paco } if you use the hood that just blow's lets say a batwing your still using the same wattage as if you used one that put's off more usable light like a supersun2 ...... the one with more usable light would yeild more or "should"

in my colisum i used "no hood" but had plants all around the light using more sqft witch means less "watt's" per sqft but yeild went up by being closer to the intensity of the light
 
00420

00420

full time daddy
Veteran
smurfin'herb said:
mmk. kinda with ya on that but still a lil cloudy.
Click to expand...

i understand thats its a lil cloudy i was trying to explan it to a guy at the hydro store the other day and he could not even grasp the concept of the "vert" being more sqft in hiz eye's it was still a 6 x 6 area.... but what he did not get was its a 6 x 6 circle x 6h....being a circle you dont just do l x w = sqft like you do for a sq. in vert L = H & W = C
c= pi x d ( x L = sqft )
6' x 3.14 = 18.8
18.8 x 6' = 113

so for 50watt's per sqft in my coli i would need 113 x 50 = 5650 watts
but i dont i need 113 x 18 = 2000 watts and using the "intensity" of both side's of the light as to its wattage rating
so with 18 watts per sqfoot yeild is 5-6 pounds

in a SQ room of 7 x 7 = 49 x 50 = 2450 watts
and would be lucky to hit 4-5 pounds

hope this helps you understand a lil more again im not trying to compare vert vs. flat garden just helping you prove your less wattage per sqft = more yeild :) if the "intensity" is right

i rounded all the # for easy math & the coil is a lil less then 6 foot it's more like 5'8" so even at 20 watts per sqft you get my drift


solid grape ape nugs from 20watts per sqft
 
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smurfin'herb

smurfin'herb

Registered Cannabis User
Veteran
DUDE! NICE! i got it now thx. Damn, seems vert is the way to go! man your really helpful. +rep. Hope ppl learn from this stuff.
 
00420

00420

full time daddy
Veteran
smurfin'herb said:
DUDE! NICE! i got it now thx. Damn, seems vert is the way to go! man your really helpful. +rep. Hope ppl learn from this stuff.
Click to expand...

like i said befor vert dont have to be ton's of plants or in a circle at that..

im about to do a vert grow in a SQ room and use 20 or so plants yes my veg is going to be long to get the height i need but it should prove the theory :dueling:

what i have is a 6w x 8l x 9h room and im going to put 4k vert no hood in it and line the plants around the room by the walls and as to scrog the 6w x 8l im going to scrog the 8l x 9h then fill in the bottem 6 x 4 ( or so with smaller plants later) now a 8 x 9 would need 3600 to get 50 watts per sqft (but i have 2* 8x9 walls so would that be 7200 watt's? but wait i would all so have to cover the 6 x 9 wall that 2700 more to get 50wpsqft so ruffly 10k and thats not counting what i will be putting on the floor or the 4th wall by the door that will fit a few extras....

am i braking the 50watt rule or just binding it.......the way i look at it is that rule is +- so much do to efficiency it should be droped as a rule but is there any better one out there????? NO :asskick:
 
00420

00420

full time daddy
Veteran
btw.... if u have the room id go with the 4 x 8 you can all ways add a 3rd 600 or a lite mover later & u will yeild a lil extra off the 1 x 2 even if you have to hash it... the cost wont be much more to worry about u are only talking 15-20 gallons
 
P

Pompey_Monkey

Member
00420 said:
it is a way of measuring "watt's" per sqft not "intensity" but at the sametime its the easyest/best way to measure with out high tech gear
if you read PACO'S thread where he measured "intensity" not "wattage" some hood's are better then other's some not by much and others just blow. { :jump: thx paco } if you use the hood that just blow's lets say a batwing your still using the same wattage as if you used one that put's off more usable light like a supersun2 ...... the one with more usable light would yeild more or "should"

in my colisum i used "no hood" but had plants all around the light using more sqft witch means less "watt's" per sqft but yeild went up by being closer to the intensity of the light
Click to expand...

That's right 00420, but you don't need any equipment to determine the (relative*) light intensity in your garden:

Light intensity is measured in lux. One lux = one lumen per square metre (sqm).

The lumen output of a bulb is either printed on the packet, or is usually available online.

For example, I have a 1.4 sqm garden. I have just upgraded from a 400W hps to a 600W hps. I know from searching a bit (can't be bothered right now - I have some gardening to do in a moment!) that the 400W outputs approximately 50,000 lumens and the 600W about 90,000 lumens.

90,000/50,000 *100 = 180% (I don't even need to allow for the size of my room as it hasn't changed and therefore has no bearing on the relative intensity)

Wow! I'm getting approximately 80% more light from the 600W than I did from the 400W baby. Nominally using only 50% more power.

Therefore, although watts per square foot (wsf) is a rough and ready reckoner, 50wsf from a 600W is about 18% greater light intensity than 50wsf from the 400W.

...and don't my babies know it! :)




* I say relative as my calculations assume that the total light output from each lamp is directed completely at the plants, which we all know it's not (unless you're doing a vertical grow or something...).
 
TGT

TGT

Tom 'Green' Thumb
Veteran
I do vertical grows with 1000's and usually only have 5 to 7 plants around each one. So really the plants are rather large and I find the hoodless bulbs work the best yield wise for this perticular style. I have tried different methods with the same clones and same environment and have always got more off the vertical set ups. Just spreading the good news about vertical grows as I think more people should at least try it.

TGT
 
Lazyman

Lazyman

Overkill is under-rated.
Veteran
Greater light intensity is the most common cure. How often do you see thin, airy outdoor buds on a well-lit plant? Not often.

Sunlight is about 10,000 lumens per square foot, and the closer you get to this level the tighter your buds will be, even on sativas.

How many lumens per square foot does your grow put down?
 
SoCaliSmoker

SoCaliSmoker

Member
Try to put a third 600w on the 4ft X 8ft. Even though the 600w may light 3ft X 3ft and your calculations tell you that it would be too much light - WHO CARES! Just my $.02
 
Lazyman

Lazyman

Overkill is under-rated.
Veteran
SoCaliSmoker said:
Try to put a third 600w on the 4ft X 8ft. Even though the 600w may light 3ft X 3ft and your calculations tell you that it would be too much light - WHO CARES! Just my $.02
Click to expand...

Actually, if you do the math on lumens (shooting for 7500 per square foot) three 600's give you 5625, pretty decent but nowhere NEAR too much light! To get to sunshine levels, you'd need 3.55 X 600w bulbs.
 
D

Dhude

Member
Yes, lazyman, those sunlight #s look like what I've seen previously. But I also remember reading that plants can't use that full level of intensity and they only receive those levels a short part of their day (although I could see equitorial sativas getting pounded by direct overhead almost all day).

I'll try to find the write-up and link it here later. EDIT: Not the one I was looking for, but similar info: http://www.weedfarmer.com/cannabis/lighting_guide.php


One thing you don't see people accounting for that can have susbtantial effects on g/w is the choice of ballast. A digi ballast is going to draw barely over the rated wattage, while a mag ballast will draw another 10-15% that is lost as heat . So simply switching ballasts and not wasting that extra power as heat, could up your g/w nicely, and that's without accounting for the extra lumens from the digi that might up your yield compared to the mag anyway.

Here's an issue I'm having. 600w digi in a SuperSun-2, 6" inline pulling, can put my hand within 4" of the glass comfortably. But after experimentation, the closest I can put it without getting lightburn/bleaching in the hottest spot of the reflector pattern is about 17"-18" above the canopy. Running a scrog with a totally cleaned up under-screen penetration is still fine, but I'm really considering how vert cooltube would eliminate reflector hotspots, increase surface area...just be a PITA to work in the room if I set it that way.
 
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