I cut this post down because it was my idea to use the original rails and wheels of a standard garage door opener setup;

after i put up the question i thought about it, and decided that might be too noisy and also hard to fit to various sheds; so i put the posts below.

The thread's rapidly becoming a W.A.L.L. O.F. T.E.X.T. by me; so you've been warned.

[Smurf]

I've been considering the use of a similar concept for a while now. I have 2 roller doors with rails etc. that lay in waiting for the day I stop procrastinating. Its an exciting idea for a forced flowering set-up. Would love to see how yours turns out. Thanks for jogging my memory.

I'm not going to be having a shed to grow in till next season.... i just have been thinking about how to force flower in one.

I know most of the noise from one comes from the big door panels acting like drum heads, & the rails... and thought about how to stop that; seems like the best way would be build another door: one that wouldn't make noise. Specifically, a curtain made of Panda plastic.


I priced some units on Ebay and it looks like a driver unit can be had for between 75 and 100 bucks.

In an aluminum shed, actual steel rails would make a lot of noise, so i considered just building rails out of pvc pipe, and although it's ghetto, attaching the curtain to the two pvc rails with shower curtain rod rings or some other curtain rod ring. .

If you made a curtain out of Panda, you could simply have a primary cross-bar attached to the chain or drive unit: and just push the curtain to one end: and pull the curtain back, along two pieces of pvc you ran from one end of the shed to the other: you could construct two rails, that attached only at the ends: either out of two pieces of iron pipe; or, of pvc pipe that was large enough it wouldn't sag: then simply push and pull the curtain back and forth.

I'm not sure of exactly how the panda would react: probably just accordion-fold, as it was pushed out to the end. There would be some space lost there, probably a foot lost where the panda compressed at the farthest end, but in a 10 or 12 foot shed, it seems like something that works would be better than nothing.



After looking around i found that there's also vibration through the mounts for the power head but that kits are sold that use polyurethane rubber to dampen the mounts.

If the only vibration from one came from the motor , it seems like one would be able to be hung and adapted to operate within decent acoustic limits.

Another means of getting the curtain deployed across the ceiling space of a rectangular shed would still require the use of an uninterrupted rail-set to slide the curtain along: cable.

The first thing that comes to mind, is to simply stretch cable taut in the form of two effectively, rails from one end of the shed, to the other: then, you'd be able, provided you got the cable fairly tight, to push and pull the curtain, along that cable, using rings. If you were really wanting reliability, what you could do, is use cross-bars made of pvc pipe: onto each end of which you put T fittings.

One of the T openings would obviously go onto the pipe that stretched from side-to-side: the other two holes of the T would be open: and you could thread that onto the cable. Put one on each end, and then put several of them about 3 feet apart, and you'd have a system: it would slide along the cable, as the main cross-bar got pushed and pulled by the chain, belt, whatever: and you could simply glue a Panda Plastic sheet, on top of all of them: so that the curtain didn't tend to pull down in the middle, tearing itself off. The cross bars of pvc pipe would be rigid enough that sagging wouldn't be a real big problem, because the T's you glued onto the ends, would be strung through the cable: stopping the cross bars from settling inward any more than their combined sag could pull the cable inward.

A curtain like this, could be pushed and pulled back and forth with great reliability: particularly if you actually used vinyl covered cable.

Ultimately over time of a year or two there might be a concern for the T's getting grooves worn in them by passing up and down the cable. This might require a little thought; however several methods of gluing inserts into the T's come to mind. The first one, would be simply cut short chunks of pipe, that would slip into the T's, about an inch long: split the little chunks lengthwise, and slip them over the cable: then push them up into the T's, and secure not with pvc glue, but with small screws. Each side of the T could be drilled out, just a little larger than the diameter of a small screw: the screw could then be driven through that hole, and into the little plastic ferrules you stuck in;

The T's would be hanging on the cable and get most of their wear in the top. after a few grows, the T's could be examined for wear: if the little chunks of pipe inserted into the T's were grooved badly you could back out the short screws holding them in place and with pliers, pull them out: then put new ones on.

I guess unless you're kind of a do-it-yourself'r this might not be clearly spoken; although i know it's ghetto maybe later i'll put a couple of paint schematics up sorta showing what i'm talking about.

Like i said i havent built one; i'm PLANNING one. Any good ideas welcome.


Here's a simplified drawing showing how the two cables (red) serve as runners/rails for the upper panda plastic blind, pushing when it opens, pulling when it closes; and at the same time, another curtain hung from one cable could probably be used to control a south-face as well. Garage door opener not shown, cross-ribs of 1/2in pvc to minimize sag of upper blind not shown. Left wall shown in dark gray represents north wall of building. I put it in dark gray to try to provide more visual clarity, it looks like another curtain, it's not.
In my head i visualize the north wall, both ends being opaque; and the roof, and south, sun-facing side, translucent.

[Smurf]

These are not the same as the 'panel doors' you speak of Kingmaker but simple zinc alum corrugated iron doors (one single sheet) wound into a drum. As you can see the ends of the doors have a rubber inserted nylon rope stapled onto them called a ribbon. They are reasonably quiet but the only problem with these is the friction created. A dry lubricant applied a few times per year is suffice (Teflon, PTFE, silicon, etc.) but they will still wear out after about 10 years depending on regularity of use & maintenance. They're not expensive to replace a set of ribbons.

Larger commercial sized doors are chain driven but these glide quite freely in the tracks with minimal effort.



The door on the left has had the ribbons replaced. - (Right)You can see how it eventually frays but this particular one is a worse case scenario.
These doors can also be automated.




Thanks again -KiNgMaKeR-

Smurf, i did some checking, and it's looking like a pretty big deal to use typical doors. There's a carriage mechanism distance limitation, on a standard door installation.

You can purchase an extension unit, but it only gives a foot or two.

For a house or shed with a roof exposure more than about 8 or 9 feet, it looks like the standard door configuration goes out the window. The reasons are several: first, the carriage mechanism extensions aren't designed for more than just a foot or two; but that isn't the final limitation: there are springs on the sides of doors, which soften the fall, when the door's weight has gone vertical.

These springs, are also responsible for lifting the door during initial 'open' conditions, (what we'd be calling ''closing'' the roof). If you don't have springs lifting the door, it strips the motor and/or the drive gears.

As well, there's the problem when you use the standard doors of what to do with excess door material - unless it's the type door you have - which i assume might be rolled up [?]... For a small 6 or 7 foot shed, regular doors are ok, if your structure can stabilize and hold the weight; but more than that, problems arise on several fronts.
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When i started considering where to get a pre-built unit with motor, carriage mechanism, and built in open/close stop limiting, i didn't consider what a limitation there is on carriage mechanism travel, for a standard door opener.

I was also under the impression - maybe wrongly - that extension of that travel wouldn't be a big deal; and indeed it might not be, as long as a chain or belt drive is used; especially a chain, because a chain can obviously be lengthened to whatever length is desired, to a point.

Not knowing much about the various actuation methods used, i note here that i read on a page, about the 'stacking of the chain' in a plastic box, when the door's retracted: as if the chain isn't a continuous loop, but a single piece, that is run out, then drawn back, at least on some openers.

This type method would mean storing of excess chain if you lengthened the travel using d.i.y methods; not a big obstacle but something to be considered.

Smurf, there was definate widespread implicit assertion, that the manufactured doors, have definite travel limitations; so it might not be possible to use your doors unless the shed's length is short enough, that whatever length they're constructed will cover the lengthwise span of roof you have to close. Sorry buddy i think - i think - i don't know - the doors you have might have pretty finite limitations on the size space they can be used to cover - even if you double them by hinging the double set you own together, the problem of their weight, comes into play: as well as what to do with the excess door material when it's moved aside to open the roof.

When considering a roof area to be closed, there's also the aspect of what to do about a south, or in your case, north side, which can be used to substantially increase the sun availability in a shed. The sun-side for me, is the south side: i'm above 23.7 latitude as i presume you are, so having light come in a side, would be a big plus; i want to do that if i can.

If i used standard doors, and standard rails, in a typical setup, the L shaped travel of the doors would present a problem: how to deal with the sun-side black-out -

in fact if a side i admits light, it will be the more direct source of light to be blocked, come blackout time.

So; although i'm no expert on blackout systems, it looks like that by using a horizontal, lightweight plastic blind, several simplifications and advantages are built in:

(1) the entire load will be lighter: rails don't need be installed: vinyl covered clothesline cable becomes sufficient; demand on the motor, & gears, is much less.

(2) the acoustic signature is reduced: plastic sliding on plastic is going to be a lot quieter; plus much less weight in motion will transmit less vibration to the greenhouse frame, reducing rumble from making the shed act like a big drum.

(3) the amount of material to be bought per foot to be blacked out is reduced;

(4) the necessity of springs is eliminated. The springs require very secure mounts and tuning in a conventional door system, as well as contributing potential noise as they stretch and contract, when the door goes down, then gets lifted back up.

(5) the structure that the blackout blind can be mounted on, can be much more lightly built: instead of supporting, and stabilizing in motion, several hundred pounds, the weight is reduced to tens of pounds.

(6) the problem of what to do with excess door material is simplified: the panda plastic can be simply pushed to one end of the cables, and doesn't have to have very much space : how much is dependent of course, on how long the roof span to be blacked out is, but after just a few feet, using standard garage doors & rails becomes a problem.

(7) Sun side black-out, can be achieved with the direct push/pull method by simply hanging a side curtain on the cable which is on the side facing the sun: and without needing to deal with a complicated geometry that would come with a standard L shaped rail system typical to a normal garage door setup.

(8) Finally the simplified geometry of the flat, push-pull actuation means not managing the weight of the blind changing directions; making the mechanics much simpler and easier to set up and tune for the first-time builder of one.
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There does remain the problem of how to best extend the carriage mechanism's travel; i'm no welder or master of metal, but i assume that extension of a chain drive could be done using a piece of aluminum tube or channel that fit the shape of the standard center rail that comes with the original opener set-up.

I guess the extension of the chain could be done by motorcycle chain, i don't know about that.


Like i said i am NOT an expert in this, so if somebody knows something speak up

Smurf i apologize for dissing the roll up doors.

What happened is i did a couple-of-hour reading jag on residential doors & openers last night. By the time i got through i had typical, residential doors & openers, on my mind.

Do you have the rails for your doors or will you have to build them? Large steel or aluminum L channel...?

If you do, you'll be rolling and unrolling them horizontally, right? If you have to do that, you'll need to get some small aluminum L stock; cut it full width, from rail - to - rail, and sock it into the channels of your door material on the side opposite from the ribbon, so it doesn't sag. If the L is short enough it won't stick up over the flat part. To use L stock that small will mean using more: but the weight consideration wouldn't pose a problem. Cutting and drilling all that stock, and the doors, will take some time.

One way is using rivets; if you use small machine screws and nuts, you'll need to washer the door side, so you don't wallow the aluminum door sheet out over time. Heads of the screws on the door sheet metal side, end of the screw and nut, on the L stock side. That way you won't have to account for the nut and screw's length, cause they'll be within the height of the L.

It's stronger if you put an L on either side of an individual ridge; skip a few feet, put two more, skip a few feet;

-but it's more flexible if you simply put one, then skip a couple of feet, then one more, and so on. Flexibility in this case is the way to go; so putting one cross member, then a few feet later putting another one, etc, is likely better.

If you unroll it horizontally when you roll it back up the size of the door-roll grows: which means that as the roll-up occurs the door is gonna lift off the rails. That's not going to be a problem though, because that'll be during light period.

When you roll the door back out, if you have the roll finish up just at the level of the rails it'll be flat enough, that light leak will be no problem . It'd probably be easy, inexpensive, to use 2 inch/50mm aluminum or iron L for the rails.

You didn't say if your shed is long enough that you'll have to use both doors.

What is the reversal mechanism for that kind of door...

In the case of your type, i don't know how they're controlled.

Feel free to come in and talk about what you have in mind, i'm sure this thread'll be dead LONG before i build my shed next season.

Edit
Smurf it came to me after i posted up, that if you do have a north-side translucent wall, so you can use more sun -

and if you do run the door out horizontally on a pair of large aluminum or iron L's - you could still extend, and draw back, a hanging curtain in front of the north wall, while you extend & retract the door. If the door lays in an L, then on the inside of the L the door will be moving; but at each end, you could drill a hole in the rail : and insert eye bolts; string cable through that.

You could then just put rings/grommets into a curtain, hang it on that cable, and affix a tab to the door, that pushed, and pulled the leading edge of the curtain: out, when the door extends, and have it drag the curtain back, when the door retracts.

Just a thought.

King that is a great idea that I've already seen done.

About 10-12 years ago there was a guy in Washington state that had a huge shed and used garage door openers to pull tarps over his grow.

It can be done. Don't over think it and get discouraged it's not that hard.

What about using pipe with shower curtain rings to hold the tarp up?

You can use panda plastic it's lighter and quieter?

Sorry i didn't read the whole thread so I don't mean to cover something twice.

GCG

Originally Posted by -KiNgMaKeR-

I'm not going to be having a shed to grow in till next season.... i just have been thinking about how to force flower in one.

I know most of the noise from one comes from the big door panels acting like drum heads, and thought about how to stop that; seems like the best way would be build another door: one that wouldn't make noise. Specifically, a curtain made of Panda plastic.


I priced some units on Ebay and it looks like a driver unit can be had for between 75 and 100 bucks.

In an aluminum shed, actual steel rails would make a lot of noise, so i considered just building rails out of pvc pipe, and although it's ghetto, attaching the curtain to the two pvc rails with shower curtain rod rings or some other curtain rod ring. .

If you made a curtain out of Panda, you could simply have a primary cross-bar attached to the chain or drive unit: and just push the curtain to one end: and pull the curtain back, along two pieces of pvc you ran from one end of the shed to the other: you could construct two rails, that attached only at the ends: either out of two pieces of iron pipe; or, of pvc pipe that was large enough it wouldn't sag: then simply push and pull the curtain back and forth.

I'm not sure of exactly how the panda would react: probably just accordion-fold, as it was pushed out to the end. There would be some space lost there, probably a foot lost where the panda compressed at the farthest end, but in a 10 or 12 foot shed, it seems like something that works would be better than nothing.



After looking around i found that there's also vibration through the mounts for the power head but that kits are sold that use polyurethane rubber to dampen the mounts.

If the only vibration from one came from the motor , it seems like one would be able to be hung and adapted to operate within decent acoustic limits.

Sorry King just went back and read this. It will work so please post some pics when you are done?????

GCG

Thanks G. C. G. it was actually your shed thread that got me hooked on the idea of shed growing so i'm glad you stopped by.

I don't have a shed that's not full of tools right now -

but i drew a diagram of the general idea; as it's drawn, the light block curtain doesn't cover the whole shed from end to end, and there's not one shown hanging down vertically on the one clear side.

Hopefully this will give people a good idea of what i'm thinking it should lay out like, in general.


The first one doesn't have side curtain or back one to block all the light. Here's another one that's a little more complete but this still isn't really good design; just progressive drawings in case anyone cares to see