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Old 07-17-2007, 08:40 PM   #46
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The slickster, how would you explain cannabis culture doing a contest to see which nutrient solution is best when tried on the SAME PLANT and what came out was that one plant made a significant amount of cbd, while the others barely made any.

If what you claim is true than that shouldn't have happened. The ONLY thing different was the nutrient that the plants received.

Also, I did write that genese play a part in a plant outcome by supplying the enzymes needed to make certain molecules BUT the environment activates those enzymes. And the fact that it's hard to find strains with cbd might be due to the fact that nearly everybody grows cannabis using the same nutrients and methods. This is why I stated using actual leaves from plants might be what's needed to get certain enzymes activated because this is where plants get their minerals from outside besides rocks because the leaves and other parts of the plant decompose and turn into the soil. All a person has to do is take different herbs(various pigments) and leaves and make a tea out of them and use that as a feed for the plant as well as other things. Just doing this alone will most likely change the outcome of the plant.

Here's a a snippet from the article:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3158.html

Harvest day came 14 weeks after the clones were rooted.

"Our plants outdistanced the second place finisher by 65%," Straumietis said, after explaining how all the buds were cut and cured the same way. "Our six plants with one light produced 2.16 pounds of bud. We did two other comparisons. In one we took a 454-gram sample from each group and made water hash out of it. Our bud produced 12 grams of extracted glands, while Grow-Tek's came in second with 11.3 grams; even though they were the smallest plants overall."

Straumietis says he ran another comparison test that measured percentages of three cannabinoids. Again, Advanced Nutrients came out on top, producing 21.2% THC, and very low percentages of two other cannabinoids (cannabinol and cannabidiol, known as CBN and CBD), that limit marijuana's psychoactive effects.

The second place finisher in the cannabinoid percentage category was GrowTek, which produced 18.7% THC while also producing a whopping 9.09% CBD and 5.84% CBD. While CBD and CBN have some medical applications which THC does not, in practical terms important to those who want potent recreational marijuana, these cannabinoids can also reduce the psychoactive effects of THC.

The nutrient challenge

It's now obvious that not all nutrients are the same. A grower can do everything right in regards to lighting, climate control and genetics, and still have crop failure.

Last edited by Truthman; 07-17-2007 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:49 PM   #47
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I notice that Nirvana offers Medical Strains in their catalog. Any experience with these? Their Haze seems to be the best for my arthritis. I suspect their claims may be a lotta hype.
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Old 07-17-2007, 11:19 PM   #48
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"Our plants outdistanced the second place finisher by 65%," Straumietis said, after explaining how all the buds were cut and cured the same way. "Our six plants with one light produced 2.16 pounds of bud. We did two other comparisons. In one we took a 454-gram sample from each group and made water hash out of it. Our bud produced 12 grams of extracted glands, while Grow-Tek's came in second with 11.3 grams; even though they were the smallest plants overall."
Hmm... it would make sense that Grow-Tek's hash came out the same weight as the hash from the Advanced Nutrients group.. Why?

Well, from what I have read... I would theorize that if the trichomes contain more CBD/CBN (which the grow-tek nutrients DID produce), they they would actually be heavier in mass. This is why, even though GrowTek had smaller plants, they had similar weight in extracted glands!!

It would be interesting if this experiment went further. Instead of making just "water hash", they should have made bubble hash, and then compared the weights of each micron-sized bag that each plant made. This way they could probably see more accurately how the different nutrient solutions produced the various cannabinoids. Since from what I've read, usually the more heady cannabinoids (probably THC), will appear at the bottom, smallest micron-size bag.

I LOVE MARIJUANAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! Sorry I can't contain my enthusiasm for this plant and its complexities. Lol.


Also, no one really has commented about using just the leaves to make smokable extracts or non-smokable extracts. Maybe we don't really need to worry as much about the strain of plant (indica or sativa), of its only in the FLOWERS that indica and sativa differ so much.

It seems in the past if someone was trying to produce a drug cultivar, they might only be breeding for the flowers... so generations after generations of doing that...maybe the leaves are still the same as the hemp cultivars?

Has anyone compared smoking the leaves of an "indica" plant compared to the leaves of a sativa? I guess I'm talking fan leaves here...not the frosty leaves.

Last edited by Indicad2006; 07-17-2007 at 11:34 PM..
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Old 07-17-2007, 11:57 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indicad2006
It seems in the past if someone was trying to produce a drug cultivar, they might only be breeding for the flowers... so generations after generations of doing that...maybe the leaves are still the same as the hemp cultivars?
[/b]
That's assuming that cannabis evolved from hemp. I know this is what we are told but that doesn't mean it's true. Remember most of what we are taught about the history of cannabis is theory.

Plus you have to remember cannabinoids are made in the trichomes, which makes sense being that the leaves have a waxy coating on them that sort of plays the same part as the waxy trichomes protecting the flowers as far preventing dehydration.

Last edited by Truthman; 07-17-2007 at 11:58 PM..
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:06 AM   #50
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Want to bring up some more questions on this study that Truthman posted about:

First off, they used this plant:
Quote:
The test grow room used a marijuana variety known as "Berlin." This is a bushy, high-yielding, mostly Afghani-Indica plant that produces large buds and a powerful high. It's very popular in British Columbia because it grows well in a variety of conditions and is easy to maintain.
So we know we are working work a plant with indica genetic backgrounds. The first question I have relates to this:
Quote:
To begin the comparison grow experiment, the grow room managers made 48 clones from one Berlin mother plant. It is possible to introduce some unintended variation into an experimental grow room at the cloning level, because clones from different parts of a plant can have different growth characteristics, even if they are taken at the same time.
How much variation is really possible by taking clones from different parts of the plant?? And lets consider not even thinking about clones. Does a plant express itself differently, in cannabinoid content, on differt arms of its branches?? For instance, would you get a more stoney bud from the lower branch, and a more cerebral bud from the top cola? Does the cannabis plant have multiple personalities? Lol... or does this not make up a big enough difference to worry about (but fun to think of)

Quote:
"I've seen a lot of problems in grow rooms, but I had never seen a situation in which identical clones began to look not identical. By the time we got to the flowering cycle, it looked like we had three or four varieties of plants in that room, even though all clones had come from the same plant," Remo explained. "It wasn't as bad as having Indica-fat leaves start looking like Sativa leaves or anything that drastic, but the leaf shapes on some of the plants were totally different than the leaves on the mother plant, as were the branching and growth patterns. It just shows you how nutrients affect the look of a plant."
I'm skeptical about this. The author of this article doesn't mention WHICH plants looked differently. Is he saying that the 6 different sections (which each had their own nutrient solutions being tested), had variation in how they grew/looked? Or is he just saying he saw variation across the board? (which would be more attributed to where the clone was taken on the mother plant...

Overall this article needs to be redone! The experiment probably needs to redone too!!

Here is what I take from this article:
It looks like Advanced Nutrients took a strain of plant that was SUPPOSED to produce more CBD's into a plant producing hardly ANY...just by their own unique formulation of nutrients.

In other words, over time Advanced Nutrients have developed their nutrients for the recreational smoker. The ability to feed your plant these nutrients will make it produce more THC, and hardly any CBD/CBN. Maybe... maybe Grow-tek just had a more balanced nutrient, OR... they had a nutrient solution that was similar to the soil that the landrace strain "Berlin" evolved on. So, the plant was more fully able to maximize its own unique genetic profile, being that the nutrient solution was closest to its genetic memory.

I'm now thinking, that maybe its a fallacy that we don't have any plants producing CBD in America. Maybe its just that, we have forgotten the environmental conditions needed to maximize this genetic part of the plant.

Maybe instead of merely going to a region of the world that produces CBD heavy plants and taking their seeds...maybe we should sit down awhile... examine the dirt... examine the air....examine the light cycles.

Examine exactly what in the environment is producing the CBD in the plants.

Sure the starting genes would matter... it would be hard to take a tropical sativa, and baby it, sooth it, and relax it into making it produce more calming effects. Haha..maybe its possibly...just gotta sing it more love songs instead of energetic rum-inspired reggae ones. Thats the secret!

I sorta opened another can of worms. I'm sure some of you out there could quickly retrain some of my thoughts... lets keep this discussion going.

Last edited by Indicad2006; 07-18-2007 at 12:14 AM..
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:52 AM   #51
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Ayy.. I need to read more posts on this entire message board. There is so much out there... probably answer my own questions too!
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:21 PM   #52
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The genetics have to be there first in order to be acted upon by the environment later, otherwise everyone would just sow hemp that turned into strong bud with nutrient solutions. Cannabis has been workable into many different sub-types throughout history including hemp, ruderalis, indica, sativa, chinensis, etc. Everyone does not grow cannabis with the same nutrients and methods. Have already been composting grow leaves into a reusable medium for some time now, and after a while the soil itself smells like bud. So yes, hopefully it will help to raise cannabinoid levels in the right strain grown in key nutrient elements. Just be sure to completely allow the leaf material to dry completely before adding into the soil so as not to encourage and mold from the fresh plant material. Have not heard any reports of people using Grow-teks solutions experiencing less psychoactivity in the final product as that is the main focus of todays growers looking for THC laden cannabis with minimal CBD.

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Old 07-21-2007, 04:35 PM   #53
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Wow great discussion.

Now just where does one get Lebanese hashplant from???
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zamalito
Well, right now there's simply no strains available where cbd will make up more than 2% of the overall cannabinoids (.5% of the flower weight) and no way of cultivating a noticeably higher cbd content.
For the most part conversion of cbg into cbd is controlled by a single gene (Bd) which is codominant with the gene that converts cbg into thc. For example a plant that inherits a Bd gene from one parent and a Bt gene from the other will have roughly equal content of Cbd and Thc. However, if the plant is homozygous for Bd it will have very little thc and if its homozygous for Bt it will have very little Cbd.

While it is true that afghani landraces can have a high cbd content. Since having a Bd gene will replace half of the thc content with cbd seed companies always remove the Bd allele from the gene pool in order to maximize thc potency and stay competitive. Right now Breeders choice is working on several indicas from afghanistan, pakistan, and north india as well as Sativas from Hokkaido and intending to produce versions both with the Bd gene for producing high cbd levels and without. All of the plants produce high cannabinoid levels. The six hokkaido strains we're working with are very hardy and fast flowering. They can be planted pretty much anywhere and left uncultivated/unfertilized and as long as they aren't eaten by wild animals harvested by mid august. They have a fairly low frequency of the Bd allele with most of the plants produce 5-10% thc but I believe the Bd allele does still occur in at least some of them. This makes a very good strain for medical users who require high cbd levels. Since depending on the plant high cbd strains don't produce as much of, if any high it is important for the plants to be effortlessly grown clandestinely and take very little effort and resource which can be taken away from primary thc producing plants. The Hokkaido strains which still possess the bd allele are perfect for this scenario. Since the nature of the genes which control cbd production only allow for plants to produce either veryl low levels cbd, rough 50/50 thc/cbd or very low levels of thc manufacture of hashish or honey oil allows for the med user to mix high cbd and high thc plants at a ratio which produces the desired medicinal effects.

Not true, there are high CBD varieties that the CBD makes up over 95% of the Cannabinoids, the CBD is 8% for unmanicured plants. I made them.

"and no way of cultivating a noticeably higher cbd content."

Not true at all.

"One of the problems with breeding for cbd is that a 50/50 chemotype canot be tru breeding."

I have not found this to be true at all, you can take a 50/50 CBD/THC variety self them and find 50% of the plants will be what you want, a mix of CBD/THC. (the rest will be high CBD 25% and high THC 25%) This is if you can determine which male and females have a 50/50 mix and use them to breed, analysis is the real problem. Also the new plants will need to be analyzed to determine which of the progeny are 50/50 or whatever it is you want.


The real problem is that how do you confirm the plant you have found / bred has high CBD and no THC? This is the basic problem.
Also do not believe that soil or light or anything else will increase the CBD level. CBD is controlled by the genetics of the plant, period.

-SamS

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:15 PM   #55
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Thank you, Sam. I have long been a fan of yours.

Question: As I am a med user, can you name several commercial strains that are high in CBD?

I notice that Nirvana sells medical strains. Any observations or comments?
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:03 PM   #56
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To be honest I have no idea. One of the big problems is their analysis figures, are they real and reproduceable? Were the results from the mother that made the seeds, or from the seed progeny, and are the progeny all the same in Cannabinoid profile? Unless homozygous most likely not. Imported hash will often be high in CBD.

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Old 07-23-2007, 06:08 PM   #57
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At the Oaksterdam grow class they handed out the proof for the lead page of the next issue of O'shaughnessy's journal for cannabis in clinical practice. The lead story is about CBD, and how Americans Robert Clark and David Watson developed strains with different profiles back in the 1980's at their Holland company named Hortipharm. When they moved to Holland the USA lost it's lead in cannabis therapeutics.

GW Pharma of the UK aquired their seed stock and have since produced a 97% CBD strain they are mixing 1:1 with their high THC strain used to produce Sativex, and they are in phase 2 of clinical trials. They hope to market this to sufferers of rheumatoid arthritas, infalmetory bowel diseases, phychotic disorders and epilespy.

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Old 07-23-2007, 06:16 PM   #58
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I love the discussion here.. obviously some intelligent folks here..

Sam brings up the KEY to this whole discussion however.. and that is..

VALIDITY----------

In "theory" all these explanations of cbd and cbg and thc's is cool.. but I dare say that for ANYONE DOIN THIS IN THE US (breeding testing)... it is ALL SPECULATIVE TOO!! (ok SUBJECTIVE).. as there are no RELIABLE CONSISTENT and ACCESSIBLE companys that can PROFILE the cannabinoids in each product...
Therefore.. whats being discussed for the most part, while surely based on good theory" is really a subjective educated to some degree GUESS... as to what plant contains what profile and hence should be crossed with what specimen..

Dopey- That was a GREAT article.. and is PROOF of what I said.. they were only able to do this work IN THE NETHERLANDS.. and PRE-2000.. and YES.. there work and GW Pharmas is BASED ON IMPERICAL EVIDENCE (Science) not just there experience in growing herbs!!

This THREAD is a GREAT ARGUMENT FOR LEGAL CANNABIS.. I would love to RELIABLY screen the cannabiniod profile of ALL MY STRAINS.. and use THAT INFO.. when deciding on what to cross with what... instead of using "MY" subjective.. experience

Good info from all here... Thanks!!

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Detroit-based U.S. Attorney Stephen Murphy: "hydroponically grown marijuana is chemically supercharged and comparable to cocaine in its effects." July 2007
�Marihuana is Mexican opium, a plant used by Mexicans and cultivated for sale by Indians. "When some beet field peon takes a few rares of this stuff, He thinks he has just been elected president of Mexico so he starts out to execute all his political enemies." Dr. Fred Fulsher of Mineral County during testimony in 1934 ORIGINALLY making cannbis illegal.

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Old 07-24-2007, 07:13 AM   #59
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The Cannalyze will work to show the presence of Cannabinoids but I would not depend on TLC analysis to determine the Cannabinoid %'s. GC analysis is what is needed.

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Old 05-26-2008, 03:25 PM   #60
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PB, I currently have some Chinese Yunnan Indica and SCBB x Kandahar going. I have also received some land race Mazar-i-Sherif, Sherberghan, Malana(Himalayan charas), Pahari Farmhouse(Himalayan charas strain), Moldavian Czech Ruderalis from Poltava region, feral Minnesota hemp seeds, Deep Chunk, Pine tar Kush, Cripple creek(DC x PTK) SCBB x PTK x SCBB and Hindu Kush #1 seeds. I have promises of several Moroccan hash strains from the Rif area. All will eventually be grown and tested with a Cannalyze Kit. As Sam said, the Thin Layer Chromatography Kits will show the presence of THC, CBD, CBN, CBG,THCV and CBG, but will not give exact %. You have to measure the size of the stain on the slide to get a very approximate % of Cannabinoids. I understand that Greenhouse and DP use the Cannalyze Kit to check their products, so any % of THC or CBD given would be very approximate.
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