[troutman]

Originally Posted by Betterhaff

I think you guys are going round ‘n round with some of this discussion. Plants from clone A and clone B that are grown and crossed in either environment will end up with same genetic mix. There is no selection, other than crossing those plants to begin with. Selections made from plants grown in the different environments may be affected by what is expressed.

Not everybody uses clones.

[djimb]

Ya, it seems like we're trying to discuss two different things. When I see the word 'breeding,' I think of an ongoing process that involves repeated selection across multiple generations. In that case, environment plays a
role in the selection process.
If you're talking about a single cross, then environment doesn't play a role at all.

So everyone's right.

[Betterhaff]

Originally Posted by troutman

Not everybody uses clones.

Very true, I was just referring to the same plant/clone environment discussion. Selections from seeds are just that. Here’s a thought. The only way you can grow the same genotype plant from seed in different environments is by cloning/replicating it somehow.

[sourpuss]

Originally Posted by Natural high

Of course, but this will only occur in a population left to survive in a natural environment without assistance or interference. Over time the "fittest" genes will be those that successfully reproduce through many generations in that environment. If a population of plants are tended to outdoors, the only selection which can occur is a conscious selection by the grower.

Funny was already thinking along your train of thought. And i agree fully with you. Now lets say there is a grower. And he plants a few acres of seed. We can still give a helping hand in selection as its easy to see which plants are affected by pests and disease. Those plants being removed. In nature those affected negatively would produce very little seed. And slowly over generations be removed.

Its more of an unnatural selection. When there is a grower. Still survival of the fittest tho.

[oldbootz]

It's called artificial selection. As the breeder selects traits to breed, the environment plays a role in which traits are expressed in the first place. So genetics plus environment present the breeder with choices. The breeder then decides where the line will go according to what traits are seen. You can't breed for something that was not there to begin with.

[Thule]

I don't agree that clone A x clone B will produce identical offspring indoors and out. The genes wont change but the environment does leaves a mark in the F1 generation epigenetically. The seeds "know" where they were conceived and will have a "memory" of that environment. The changes might not be visible but the first step to aclimitization does happen in F1 seeds.


"Plants monitor day/night and seasonal cycles to align their metabolism, growth, and development to changing environmental conditions. This plasticity requires signal perception/integration, changing gene expression in response to those signals, and then maintenance of that response until conditions change again. Epigenetic mechanisms, by definition, allow changed states to persist through cell divisions, even in the absence of the inducing stimulus, and they provide a molecular memory that underpins the maintenance phase of these responses.Many of the environmentally induced epigenetic changes in plants are reset during gametogenesis, as are most epigenetic marks in animals. However, some persist through gametogenesis and can be stable through many generations. There is, therefore, the definite potential for transgenerational epigenetic change in plants whereas, in animals, this possibility is more controversial."

[Thule]

From personal experience nature is a much greater selector than man is. Some plants are killed by late frosts, some are preferred by animals, some just don't like the soil, some rot during rainy periods and some flower too late to produce seed.

What you have at the end is where you can select from.

Someone here put it nicely along the lines "nature decides, man selects."

[Natural high]

Originally Posted by Thule

I don't agree that clone A x clone B will produce identical offspring indoors and out. The genes wont change but the environment does leaves a mark in the F1 generation epigenetically. The seeds "know" where they were conceived and will have a "memory" of that environment. The changes might not be visible but the first step to aclimitization does happen in F1 seeds.

Inheritable adaptation seems to be a popular belief in the cannabis world, but the reality is that very little evidence exists showing epigenetic inheritance in any species. The same genotype can no doubt present a very different phenotype in different environments and some of these differences can be epigenetic in nature, but almost invariably the genome is wiped clean during gametogenesis. The overwhelming evidence for adaptation is via natural selection, and this only occurs at the population level over many generations.


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