[SkyHighLer]

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

The ppm of residual solvent in an oil sample isn't equal to the ppm of residual solvent in the oil sample vaporized and diluted with air.

The residual standards are BS, at the actual concentration level the residuals are non-toxic, and undetectable to the unaided senses.

Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

Could you elaborate?

Definition of elaborate

1 : planned or carried out with great care - took elaborate precautions
2 : marked by complexity, fullness of detail, or ornateness elaborate prose


I'm done elaborating.


GW, the table of odor thresholds you linked to states 1,200 ppm for butane. For your senses to experience 1,200 ppm of butane the BHO would need to have a butane residual of 15,900 ppm, assuming the 13.25x dilution factor from my presentation.

Also the 1,200 ppm odor threshold referenced is against a neutral background of pure nitrogen, not a vaporized terpene rich dab diluted with ambient air.

"Measurement of Odor Threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method"

https://cschi.cz/odour/files/world/M...g%20Method.pdf



Could you respond?

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

Definition of elaborate

1 : planned or carried out with great care - took elaborate precautions
2 : marked by complexity, fullness of detail, or ornateness elaborate prose


I'm done elaborating.


GW, the table of odor thresholds you linked to states 1,200 ppm for butane. For your senses to experience 1,200 ppm of butane the BHO would need to have a butane residual of 15,900 ppm, assuming the 13.25x dilution factor from my presentation.

Also the 1,200 ppm odor threshold referenced is against a neutral background of pure nitrogen, not a vaporized terpene rich dab diluted with ambient air.

"Measurement of Odor Threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method"

https://cschi.cz/odour/files/world/M...g%20Method.pdf



Could you respond?

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

The ppm of residual solvent in an oil sample isn't equal to the ppm of residual solvent in the oil sample vaporized and diluted with air.

The residual standards are BS, at the actual concentration level the residuals are non-toxic, and undetectable to the unaided senses.

Could you elaborate?

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

Definition of elaborate

1 : planned or carried out with great care - took elaborate precautions
2 : marked by complexity, fullness of detail, or ornateness elaborate prose


I'm done elaborating. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\JDELLI~1\AppData\Loca l\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_im age001.gif[/IMG]


GW, the table of odor thresholds you linked to states 1,200 ppm for butane. For your senses to experience 1,200 ppm of butane the BHO would need to have a butane residual of 15,900 ppm, assuming the 13.25x dilution factor from my presentation.

Also the 1,200 ppm odor threshold referenced is against a neutral background of pure nitrogen, not a vaporized terpene rich dab diluted with ambient air.

"Measurement of Odor Threshold by Triangle Odor Bag Method"

https://cschi.cz/odour/files/world/Measurement%20of%20odor%20thre shold%20by%20Triangle%20Odor%2 0Bag%20Method.pdf



Could you respond? [IMG]file:///C:\Users\JDELLI~1\AppData\Loca l\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_im age002.gif[/IMG]

I can now. I was reacting to your comment, "The residual standards are BS, at the actual concentration level the residuals are non-toxic, and undetectable to the unaided senses."

I was curious as to why you said the residual FDA standards are BS, as well as what concentration level you were referring to.

I had already stated there was competition, so I inferred your issue wasn’t competing odors.

“Butane is a subtle odor and taste, so as noted is easily masked by the unsubtle monoterpenes. It's more detectable extracting old material mostly devoid of the competing aromatic odors and flavors.

Here is a link showing sensory thresholds for different solvents when isolated.”

What isn’t clicking is:

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

When you get your head around the above, do the math for the other residual solvents, here's an interesting example, benzene. Benzene should be limited to 2 ppm before dilution due to possible oral ingestion toxicity, the second calculation is to show how high a ppm of benzene you could have in your oil and still have only 2 ppm in the diluted vapor.

In my vernacular, 2ppm is the dilution.

[SkyHighLer]

I've offered ample evidence to prove no one ever 'tasted' butane in a vaporized dab.

A residual level of >15,000 ppm in the oil would be necessary to exceed the butane odor threshold level of 1,200 ppm in the vaporized and diluted dab.


115F down to -29.5" Hg until the bubbling slows to a crawl, and I'm done, and with nearly all the terpenes retained. Sorry you guys can't follow the logic, I'm really trying.

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

I've offered ample evidence to prove no one ever 'tasted' butane in a vaporized dab.

A residual level of >15,000 ppm in the oil would be necessary to exceed the butane odor threshold level of 1,200 ppm in the vaporized and diluted dab.


115F down to -29.5" Hg until the bubbling slows to a crawl, and I'm done, and with nearly all the terpenes retained. Sorry you guys can't follow the logic, I'm really trying.

Certainly ample argument, if not evidence.

Not hard to follow the logic brother John, but on the other hand I have tasted butane in a vaporized dab, which also made my nose crawl.

One issue is that odor and taste thresholds aren't the same.

Another is they results aren't the same for the unrefined and adapted palate.

Then there is the crawly nose thing.........

[SkyHighLer]

I suggest what is making your "nose crawl" is the terpenes you didn't vacuum off, not the residual butane.


Attached are the range of odor threshold values for butane and propane from:

Odor Thresholds for Chemicals with Established Occupational Health Standards, 2nd edition
Edited by Sharon S. Murnane, Alex H. Lehocky, and Patrick D. Owens
Number of Pages: 182
Date Published: 4/23/2013
ISBN: 978-1-935082-38-5

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by SkyHighLer

I suggest what is making your "nose crawl" is the terpenes you didn't vacuum off, not the residual butane.


Attached are the range of odor threshold values for butane and propane from:

Odor Thresholds for Chemicals with Established Occupational Health Standards, 2nd edition
Edited by Sharon S. Murnane, Alex H. Lehocky, and Patrick D. Owens
Number of Pages: 182
Date Published: 4/23/2013
ISBN: 978-1-935082-38-5

I don't agree for a couple reasons. The first is that in some cases, terpenes were notably lacking, and the second is that I continue to experiment with the terpene concentrates by themselves without that reaction.

After considering your math, I suggest that your model is flawed, in that the vapor is not evenly mixed with the air before inhaling. It comes in rather concentrated, and the balance of the air is added after it has already passed the mouth.

[SkyHighLer]

Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

Certainly ample argument, if not evidence.

Not hard to follow the logic brother John, but on the other hand I have tasted butane in a vaporized dab, which also made my nose crawl.

One issue is that odor and taste thresholds aren't the same.

Another is they results aren't the same for the unrefined and adapted palate.

Then there is the crawly nose thing.........

Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

I don't agree for a couple reasons. The first is that in some cases, terpenes were notably lacking, and the second is that I continue to experiment with the terpene concentrates by themselves without that reaction.

After considering your math, I suggest that your model is flawed, in that the vapor is not evenly mixed with the air before inhaling. It comes in rather concentrated, and the balance of the air is added after it has already passed the mouth.

I'm reading you think the initial butane concentration being sucked in through your mouth and down your throat during inhalation is also being diverted directly up your nasal passage, bombarding your olfactory bulb with nasty irritating butane, making your "nose crawl." Interesting the cannabinoids and terpenes at the supposed high initial concentration your conjecturing aren't offensive to your nose.

I just squirted some butane in a Mason jar, and with the liquid butane sloshing around and boiling off I stuck my nose in the jar and tried to "make my nose crawl," couldn't do it. Other than the faint petroleum odor and the coolness of the vapor, nothing, zip, nada.

Thinking maybe I wasn't getting a concentrated enough dose to replicate the "nose crawl" experience reported by GW, I repeated the experiment using a piece of tubing, one end deep in the jar of boiling butane, the other in my mouth or up my nose. Inhaling the highly concentrated butane vapor through my mouth never made it to my nose, no effect. Inhaling through my nose with the other nostril closed off it was odorous and somewhat irritating, but at that high of a concentration I almost passed out, and it's impossible to get anywhere near that concentration from a dab.

Does your brain/mind analyze the 'flavor' of the dab during inhale, while your holding it, during exhale, or after exhale?

The 'flavor' isn't revealed to me until I've held it and have begun releasing it, it is only at that time the slowly released wafts of vapor hit my nose.

[SkyHighLer]

As an adjunct to the above test, I squirted some butane into a one gallon Zip-Lock bag, removed the air, sealed it, let the butane turn to vapor, and took note of the expansion.

To remove the air I let the bottom edge with the liquid butane hang over the sink, and 'squeegeed' the air out with my arm.

The result was interesting, very little expansion. I tried it with larger amounts of butane, and could then see some expansion, but it would take a quite a lot of liquid butane to fill the bag with vapor.

A residual level of 5,000 ppm is .005 of a gram of butane in a gram of BHO. A tenth of a gram dab would contain .0005 of a gram of butane.

That five ten-thousandth (.0005) of a gram of butane when vaporized would be infinitesimal in volume, nothing compared to the volume of the rest of the vapor from the dab.

[WaterFarmFan]

Interesting discussion guys. What happens if you do 10x dabs for 356 days straight at .0005 grams per dab? That would be 1.78 grams of butane. Is it bad for you over the very long term?

[SoulAnnoyed]

Is Mercaptan included in that butane ppm?

Most people can't taste anything you don't tell them about. Thats why the market is in the shape its in. Leafly description trumps all lol. "ah yeah that must be skunk!"