PROPANE Heat Exchanger + Chiller Recommendations - Page 2 - Cannabis Concentrates - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

Itsgotatail · 01-09-2018, 06:23 AM

Lab chillers seem disproportionately expensive considering they are just devices that are taking electricity and using it to remove temperature. I'm surprised we haven't seen more beefy homebuilt solutions. I would imagine that a big window-unit air conditioner plumbed up to a plate style or tube-in-shell heat exchanger could compete with a $20k lab chiller, and could be built for under $2k. I'm thinking about plumbing up a single AC unit to chill both my injection coil as well as my after-pump chiller coil. I have no idea how I'm going to go about this yet. Like what refrigerant I'll use or what temperatures I'll be able to achieve. I was thinking that if I wanted to get really crazy, I could build a cascading system where one AC unit chilled another unit's refrigerant and then THAT refrigerant got my butane down to -50°F. I think I could STILL build this for $3-4k, even with welding fees. From what I've seen, that much money doesn't get much of a pro lab chiller system. Maybe 2HP/1500W at best. I'd like to get at least 5HP or 3800W of chilling power (and a heat exchanger that can efficiently take advantage of that). From what I've seen so far, the $100-200 plate style heat exchangers are the best deal as far as BTUs/hr per dollar and are often rated at 300+psi. Perhaps several of those could just be strung together to reach the desired capacity.

WaterFarmFan · 01-09-2018, 06:38 AM

How much does a dry ice manufacturing machine cost (serious question)?

As far the plate exchangers, I have a single one that I submerge in PID controlled hot oil pot for heating nitrogen, but it absolutely destroys my copper coil in efficiency. The plates have a crazy groove system that really increases contact and thus increases heat transfer.

You absolutely could string a bunch of these together and cool as much liquid or gas as needed. Just build/buy an insulated shell, like they sell dry ice in grocery stores, and fill it up with dry ice and glycol or other mixture for maximum efficiency.

So, again. How much does a dry ice machine cost???

WaterFarmFan · 01-09-2018, 06:52 AM

Haha I guess that you would need a co2 gas plant as well...

https://www.ssgaslab.com/co2gas.html

Itsgotatail · 01-09-2018, 06:54 AM

Yes, those are the plate style I'm thinking of, although I'd be running butane through one channel and the refrigerant from the AC system through the other channel. Should be easy enough to find an HVAC tech that can just open up an AC unit, empty the refrigerant, plump this heat exchanger into the loop and refill it with a suitable refrigerant to get down to the desired temperatures.

Itsgotatail · 01-09-2018, 07:24 AM

My other option would be to plumb that AC unit to a copper coil sitting in glycol or alcohol and have THAT coolant pump through the plate heat exchanger, but that seems like an unecessary extra step.

WaterFarmFan · 01-09-2018, 07:24 AM

Lots of ways to skin a cat. Even if you are running refrigerant through one side of counter flow, you would want to insulate the plates for maximum effect. You could keep plates in a chest freezer and/or use chest freezer full of glycol as a pre-chiller even if using your modified ac condenser approach. Pangea posted some links to some top-shelf ac gear in the 2k-3k range. Edit here - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...0&postcount=22

WaterFarmFan · 01-09-2018, 07:32 AM

People also use this tech (ac unit conversion with glycol) to "water-cool" computer chips for bleeding edge overclocking. Tons of DIY youtube videos if you search for those. From what I saw, the real bitch of the process is cutting out the copper condensing coil system from the AC unit without damaging (puncturing the coil).

WaterFarmFan · 01-09-2018, 07:45 AM

The simplest approach is to string a bunch of cross-linked plate chillers together, submerge in glycol, cool solution with dry ice or motorized approach to your desired temperature.

How much butane are you talking about?

Itsgotatail · 01-09-2018, 09:47 PM

I'm using 30-32lb in my system. I should be using a bit more, since I'm using a 4x48" material column (10 liters). But I'm collecting in a 12x12" column with a 3" deep shatter platter on the bottom. This is about all I can fit. I seem to get everything out with just 2.5x volume but perhaps I won't if I significantly drop my injection temps.

WaterFarmFan · 01-10-2018, 12:57 AM

30lbs is a lot of gas to do an effective heat transfer. What is your delta T? Mine is around 140F, with a starting temp of 70F and a desired gas temp of 210F. While certainly not an exact reference, my single plate with the sides interconnected, took a residence total time of 60-120 seconds to bring 1lb of gas to my temp, but I use a very slow bleed as part of my process, and this works perfectly for my needs. How fast would you want to heat exchange 30lbs of gas?

01-09-2018, 06:23 AM	#11
Itsgotatail Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 62	Lab chillers seem disproportionately expensive considering they are just devices that are taking electricity and using it to remove temperature. I'm surprised we haven't seen more beefy homebuilt solutions. I would imagine that a big window-unit air conditioner plumbed up to a plate style or tube-in-shell heat exchanger could compete with a $20k lab chiller, and could be built for under $2k. I'm thinking about plumbing up a single AC unit to chill both my injection coil as well as my after-pump chiller coil. I have no idea how I'm going to go about this yet. Like what refrigerant I'll use or what temperatures I'll be able to achieve. I was thinking that if I wanted to get really crazy, I could build a cascading system where one AC unit chilled another unit's refrigerant and then THAT refrigerant got my butane down to -50°F. I think I could STILL build this for $3-4k, even with welding fees. From what I've seen, that much money doesn't get much of a pro lab chiller system. Maybe 2HP/1500W at best. I'd like to get at least 5HP or 3800W of chilling power (and a heat exchanger that can efficiently take advantage of that). From what I've seen so far, the $100-200 plate style heat exchangers are the best deal as far as BTUs/hr per dollar and are often rated at 300+psi. Perhaps several of those could just be strung together to reach the desired capacity.
	Quote

01-09-2018, 06:38 AM	#12
WaterFarmFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,636	How much does a dry ice manufacturing machine cost (serious question)? As far the plate exchangers, I have a single one that I submerge in PID controlled hot oil pot for heating nitrogen, but it absolutely destroys my copper coil in efficiency. The plates have a crazy groove system that really increases contact and thus increases heat transfer. You absolutely could string a bunch of these together and cool as much liquid or gas as needed. Just build/buy an insulated shell, like they sell dry ice in grocery stores, and fill it up with dry ice and glycol or other mixture for maximum efficiency. So, again. How much does a dry ice machine cost???
	Quote

01-09-2018, 06:52 AM	#13
WaterFarmFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,636	Haha I guess that you would need a co2 gas plant as well... https://www.ssgaslab.com/co2gas.html
	Quote

01-09-2018, 06:54 AM	#14
Itsgotatail Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 62	Yes, those are the plate style I'm thinking of, although I'd be running butane through one channel and the refrigerant from the AC system through the other channel. Should be easy enough to find an HVAC tech that can just open up an AC unit, empty the refrigerant, plump this heat exchanger into the loop and refill it with a suitable refrigerant to get down to the desired temperatures.
	Quote

01-09-2018, 07:24 AM	#15
Itsgotatail Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 62	My other option would be to plumb that AC unit to a copper coil sitting in glycol or alcohol and have THAT coolant pump through the plate heat exchanger, but that seems like an unecessary extra step.
	Quote

01-09-2018, 07:32 AM	#17
WaterFarmFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,636	People also use this tech (ac unit conversion with glycol) to "water-cool" computer chips for bleeding edge overclocking. Tons of DIY youtube videos if you search for those. From what I saw, the real bitch of the process is cutting out the copper condensing coil system from the AC unit without damaging (puncturing the coil).
	Quote

01-09-2018, 07:45 AM	#18
WaterFarmFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,636	The simplest approach is to string a bunch of cross-linked plate chillers together, submerge in glycol, cool solution with dry ice or motorized approach to your desired temperature. How much butane are you talking about?
	Quote

01-09-2018, 09:47 PM	#19
Itsgotatail Member Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 62	I'm using 30-32lb in my system. I should be using a bit more, since I'm using a 4x48" material column (10 liters). But I'm collecting in a 12x12" column with a 3" deep shatter platter on the bottom. This is about all I can fit. I seem to get everything out with just 2.5x volume but perhaps I won't if I significantly drop my injection temps.
	Quote

01-10-2018, 12:57 AM	#20
WaterFarmFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,636	30lbs is a lot of gas to do an effective heat transfer. What is your delta T? Mine is around 140F, with a starting temp of 70F and a desired gas temp of 210F. While certainly not an exact reference, my single plate with the sides interconnected, took a residence total time of 60-120 seconds to bring 1lb of gas to my temp, but I use a very slow bleed as part of my process, and this works perfectly for my needs. How fast would you want to heat exchange 30lbs of gas?
	Quote