For what it's worth, I worked at a place that manufactured optical filters, AR coatings and R coatings.

We used to make a wide array, (pun intended,) of optical filters for telescopes, satellites and all manner of instrument.
I have no doubt that simply applying filters over MH or HPS lights will allow only the wavelengths you desire for different times of day that you are trying to simulate.
One could apply a shortpass/longpass filter that blocks out some of the more intense wavelengths in the lower areas or "sky", and graduate the light waves allowed as the "sun" completes its arc.

Here's a little about the filters I am talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_filter
They are not merely color gels... They can be very specific, some as narrow as an angstrom wide. That means if you want 656.40nm, You can apply a filter that ONLY allows 656.40 =/-0.1nm if you want it.
Or, using a wider brush, allow say 400-550nm, block the mid and then allow the 600-700nm range.
All sorts of options as an alternative to LED where the ranges or specific colors one wants should HPS or MH be the only options.
I am gonna bet they are expensive though. the equipment to make those costs about $1million per rig, many times more than that if planetary mounting of the substrates is an option. We're talking about a dozen substrates all rotating and spinning for even coverage.
Then, the plates are tested at different diameters and cored. The size of the filter or arrays can be 1MM-16 inches. Pretty spectacular stuff.

I'd love to see these applied to a grow operation, especially in one that duplicates the travel of the sun.

[Chilly Willy]

Scott, the reason why I am poor is because I don't follow others around, and often I tell them they are heading toward a cliff. You would be surprised how much their lashing out creates an cause and effect that makes you poor, feeling worthless. So I wanted to put into context what I am about to say, the ideas you just mentioned are outside most people's dome. To manipulate the light they way you just mentioned gives the term "dialing in your grow" a whole new meaning. You are right, I am talking about two subjects on this thread, one is heliotropism, the other is about offering a fuller spectrum of light so again, the plant feels more at home in a natural setting. Leaves do bend and move quite a bit as the sun moves, and so do buds by the way. It is like bathing all of this in juicy sunlight, real sunlight. And if we used your ideas it would be even better than the sun because you can pick certain frequencies.

Now the dome idea, is something that will take quite a bit of thought just to realize it's significance. Light is always the same distance away, and two is heliotropism. I like your excitement. You are for sure on my "bud" list here on this forum.

[Chilly Willy]

The idea about the dome. A cool way to do what you are saying is to create a screen that is dome in shape, and weave the plants into this screen. This would be a very efficient method.

One could have just one plant in a single dome. That would also be neat. The problem with the way I did it with staggering different bulbs is it worked, but it was linear and this caused problems in even coverage. I wonder if a person could take a HID bulb and spread it's spectrum like a funnel, but the funnel tip above the plant was the wide part. Better yet, a funnel that had holes all around it and the light shinned through like crepuscular rays. Is that the right term, the holly rays that shine through a cloud and they shoot off in all directions.

[Chilly Willy]

Another idea I was wondering about was since this is linear, a grower could make his lights come travel both forwards and backwards so that the heliotropism is more distinguished.

The older grow had 3 lights come on which were numbers 1,2, and 3. These ran for six hours. Then 4, 5, and 6 turned on as soon as the others were turned off and then ran for an additional 6 hours this totaling 12 hours for flowering in one day. 1-3 are MHL, and 4-6 were HPS. The digram would look like this:

---(1)0n---(5)Off---(3)On---
---(4)Off---(2)On---(6)Off---

The new concept would get more travel from the lights and more heliotropism by using 3 hour shifts instead of 6 hours. This uses the same amount of lights, same placement but it travels forwards, then backwards. Notice on the way back the lights are also reversed, so that the plants get get light not at the place where they were left off at, instead it is lit in the blank space that just occurred. This would alternate the HPS, and MH lights as well. So 3 hours MH, 3 hours HPS, 3 hours MH, and 3 hours HPS. The plants would travel twice as much.

What would be really cool is if on the travel back, a person cud somehow get the light hoods to rotate 180 degrees where the bulbs change their location from a MH position to a HPS position. Here is the second example I was trying to illustrate:


---(1)0n---(5)Off---(3)On---(6)Off---(2)On---(4)Off---
---(4)Off---(2)On---(6)Off---(3)On---(5)Off---(1)On---

,,,,,,,,forwards,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,/,,,,,,,,backwards,,,,,,,,,,,

Yeah, the distance thing is sort of an issue, but if the dome was flattened out a bit, I bet someone could still emulate a longer distance for the "early" and "later" parts of the "day".

I mean, the sun is 92.96 million miles away... and it is only the travel through the extra thickness of atmosphere that makes it look closer or further away. What this does to the spectrum though... That's what we're after as well as causing heliotropism to occur through "travel".


Maybe it's more pronounced in the sativas since they are so leggy, but maybe it's because they originate closer to the equator and have less of a variance in the photoperiod than more northern or southern latitudes.
Maybe they don't LIKE being bent as much as say a squat indica?
they certainly stretch more up here than in say... on the equator. They don't need to down there as much, and the heliotropism is less pronounced there than here.


Regarding the optical filters, LED companies already do this to their LEDs to emit certain frequencies, but really... a high quality LED, MH or HPS that incorporates actual optical filters in its design to provide ALL the light a certain plant requires would really be ultimate.

I may have to make a phone call and ask some old colleagues back at the filter place.


I like the idea about going forward and backward, but when a plant is in situ on the ground, it looks to the east like the rest of us do to start the day.
Maybe making them go from facing west and then laying down the leaves for the night resets them, maybe it gives them the extra movement they need for stronger stalks and the hormones and reactions that occur as a result of that process.

Oh, all these really cool ideas.

Really CW... This is a gem of a thread. We need more actual science infused in this process, especially with lighting.
We're essentially still operating on "put plant in box. shine light on plant." logic as a community, when we should be looking to truly duplicate the sun's natural spectrum and behavior.

[kelly1376]

CW,

The complete sunlight supply 315 setup is way overpriced IMO around $500 but you can get the reflector with another ballast a lot cheaper such as this setup:

https://growershouse.com/ceramic-mh-3...rmance-package

HTG supply also sells a complete 400 watt CMH system quite affordable:

https://www.htgsupply.com/products/ht...ide-grow-light

What I meant by plant spacing every six inches wasn't 6 inches between pots but literally 1 plant every 6 inches across the space. So 28 x 72 inch area =~60 plants. Then defoliate on day 21. A true SOG.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.ph...postcount=1763

[Chilly Willy]

Kelly, I just took a break from mowing the lawn to talk about growing (kinda ironic). That is good news all around. The opts from Rand (air cone pots) are 6" wide, and I was putting six inches between each pot. So what you are saying I can see from my own experience doing that (hence being aware of how much or how little foliage my plants had and the space between them that was open. So I can put more little girls in their, that is great. Mother would be proud!

I want to see where this thread goes, it may end up being too many lights, or lights situated in a certain location that the hood dimensions would prevent this. I like the idea of CMH, I just feel a nudge on my shoulder saying don't forget about HPS. But having all the spectrum in one bulb is surely an advantage in heliotropism. I am wondering if before this is all over with that I have to have a metal fabricator to make a hood that would allow all the lights, with sockets placed where we desire. You got some really good links to science and that says a whole lot about you, my articulate new friend!

Scott, no what I meant was having a flat surface like I do is a problem because the lights are spaced and turn off and on but there are spots where the bulb is right over plants and this there is a spot where no plants are under a bulb. This never changes, and I want get around that.

I feel I may be looking at this wrong the wrong way. Like you say, we are programed into thinking a certain way like what is around us. Instead of just moving lights, what if we tilted the table. It could be like a see-saw, and after a period of time the table tilts as apposed to a dome. The distance of the lights as the table tilts puts the plants closer to the light and a higher intensity, the Co2 can be timed where when this tilt happens there is way more C02.

You don't have to have plants on the center of the table, and this tilt lifts one end of the plants, while it lowers the other end. So the sun effect would be going on twice, two different cycles. At one end of the table it is ,ore intense, where this end of the table starts out intense and later gives you a cooler afternoon. Since I grow short plants, it is just a bud on a stick with a handful of short branches; this would make the table more manageable, hence due to low height. I get short plants because I dint have big bulbs which make a plant stretch, they are also short because I take clones and put them under HID and skip veg. They are also short because half of my lighting is only MH.

People keep suggesting LED, put the light is so bright that on my high end flash lights they say you can not read under them, nor is it good for people. I guess I need to learn more about them because Philups sure seams to like them but grow lights by manufactures are nit on the band wagon yet and this makes me wonder why. Sun Systems does not have an LED set up.

I am wondering if it is possible to get smaller bulbs than 400 watts and use more of them, and make these lights closer to the tops. My buds the way I did this the tops were about 8 or nine inches long. So I want light that only really gets these primary leaves and all of the buds.

You are right, Sativa is a leggy girl, and that is why they mix the other plant in with it to make it a hybrid to help control this height because after all most people' rooms are not very tall. I think it is a waste of light to make a plant grow with a long trunk, and this also makes the pathway for nutrients to go up that trunk a longer path; hence not as efficient. Short plants and just the right amount of light is where I am trying to dial into.

The idea about spectral rays like seen when the sun is blocked by a cloud and you see all these rays shooting out, I was really thinking about many smaller light bulbs placed close together and timed to come on. Or a plate could be used like a false lens where it blocks certain lights until you want heliotropism at that spot.

Going forwards and backwards would make the leaves point one way, then another way. Since the lights are staggered, they are already pointing NE to NW, and SE to SW. You know what I mean. So having them aim east to west, then west to east is no big deal. The idea is like you said, to make the plant's structure move within inside of the plant and this movement circulates fluid in the stem and bud. get your juices flowing may be a good description. Don't go away from this thread, I want you to think some more about this. I like how all you guys are contributing here, and I am very grateful and excited. For that matter , yu could actually make the plants go forwards, backwards, and forwards again by doing two hour cycles on each set of lights. Once again, the idea is movement.

I like the idea of a tilting table, and I need some help here with this because there is a lot more I know I am missing. Unlike the idea of it getting closer to the light as the table tilts up like a see-saw, and adding a butt load of Co2 when it does. I already read the science, the other side of plants that are not tilted wont be harmed by this because not enough intensity it does not matter how much Co2 there is, it can't process it at lower intensity.

I am wondering if a strain with closer nodes bit's genetics is available. Maybe not growing a sativa is a better idea all together. But they get real thick right? That would be less plants but I guess that's okay if the buds are like 4 inches wide. I use an expensive Ebac dehumidifier that they use in crawl spaces in an attic, and this would dry out the thick buds no problem, I am just going to have to figure out how to burp jars with a different method because I would be burping all the time so mildew does not come. Or I could just make hash out of everything I grow. I did this with 2.25 pounds of buds, wish you guys were there when I did. It was fabulous, I never seen so much hash in my life and this stuff you don't see much of around.

So what do you guys think about smaller HID bulbs, more of them, and a tilting table with a very happy Co2 generator looking down at all these little plants.

[Chilly Willy]

As far as plants resting, they have twelve hours at night, then they better be ready to exercise the next day. hehehehe

[Chilly Willy]

I also like the idea of taking a plant and growing it onto a vertical screen and arranging the lights in the center of each screen like how you see screens in a bee hive. Since the light is between them it would shine light covering the screen on the east, and also the screen on the west; any light that goes between the screens hits the third screen. You would have to have small lights, and maybe this is where your LED's come into play. How small of an HID light can one buy? Do they make them smaller than 150 watts, and if son can they be bought where the bulb is not huge? They also make Low pressure Sodium lights, and they are a different size, I believe smaller. Maybe ceramic bulbs or double ended bulbs can be bought in a very small wattage.

The screens would be standing up and down, not sideways. and you would make a tray were you could slide the screen and plant in the light box, or out of the light box to service just that one screen.

[ReikoX]

Chilly, the smallest CMH they make is 150-watts. I run them in my "vertical" micro cab. When you say more smaller wattage bulbs, that is what LED is (more or less). The biggest downfall of LED is the initial cost IMO.

Scott, your LED dome idea is similar to the one I posted earlier in this thread. The only difference is I envisioned more of tunnel than a dome. I even talked about the Ardunio control. It could be a fun project, but I don't have the time or money to peruse it at this time.