[Gimpy]

Some relevant information that I found from Toxnet:

"Human Toxicity Excerpts: Neem seed oil produced occasional diarrhea, nausea, and general discomfort when given orally as an anthelmintic.

Five to ten milliliters of the oil given orally to children against minor ailments caused vomiting, drowsiness, tachypnea with acidotic respiration, and polymorphonuclear leukocytosis, and encephalopathy developed within hours of ingestion. Seizures, associated with coma, developed in some cases. Autopsy demonstrated pronounced fatty acid infiltration of the liver and proximal renal tubules, with mitochondrial damage, and cerebral edema, changes consistent with Reye's syndrome.

Antidote and Emergency Treatment:
Skin decontamination: If skin contamination occurs, the skin should be thoroughly washed with soap and water.

Gastrointestinal decontamination: Due to the severe gastrointestinal irritation, gastric emptying and catharsis are not indicated. Consideration should be given to administration of activated charcoal.

Metabolism/Metabolites: Injection of a tritiated azadirachtin derivative, dihydroazadirachtin into locusts indicated fast clearing of radiolabeled material from the blood. Ninety percent of the applied radioactivity was excreted during the first 7 hr with the feces, whereas the remaining dihydroazadirachtin accumulated in the Malpighian tubules where it could be detected even 24 days after treatment. After the first 24 hr, feces contained at least three polar, unidentified metabolites but no dihydroazadirachtin.

Environmental Fate/Exposure: If released to air, a vapor pressure of 2.7X10-11 mm Hg indicates azadirachtin will exist solely in the particulate phase in the atmosphere. Particulate-phase azadirachtin will be removed from the atmosphere by wet and dry deposition. Azadirachtin has a reported half-life of 3.9 days when exposed to UV light. If released to soil, azadirachtin is expected to have high mobility based upon a Koc of 93. Volatilization from moist soil surfaces is not expected to be an important fate process based upon an estimated Henry's Law constant of 9.9X10-14 atm-cu m/mole. Azadirachtin is not expected to volatilize from dry soil surfaces based upon its vapor pressure. When incubated with soil in the dark at pH 7 azadirachtin had reported half-lives of 43.9 and 19.8 days at 15 and 25 deg C, respectively. When the soil was autoclaved to remove microbes the half-lives of azadirachtin increased to 91.2 and 31.5 days at 15 and 25 deg C under similar conditions. In a separate study azadirachtin had soil half-lives ranging from 26-29 days at 18 deg C, pH 6.0 and exposed to natural light. If released into water, azadirachtin is not expected to adsorb to suspended solids and sediment based upon the estimated Koc. Volatilization from water surfaces is not expected to be an important fate process based upon this compound's estimated Henry's Law constant.

ATMOSPHERIC FATE: According to a model of gas/particle partitioning of semivolatile organic compounds in the atmosphere, azadirachtin, which has a vapor pressure of 2.7X10-11 mm Hg at 25 deg C, is expected to exist solely in the particulate phase in the ambient atmosphere. Particulate-phase azadirachtin may be removed from the air by wet and dry deposition. The half-life for photolysis of azadirachtin is 50 days. Azadirachtin has a reported half-life of 3.9 days when exposed to UV light.

Indoor Applications. If the label directions permit, leave all windows open and fans operating after the application is completed. If the pesticide product is only effective in an unventilated (sealed) room or house, do not stay there. Put all pets outdoors, and take yourself any your family away from treated areas for at least the length of time prescribed on the label. Apply most surface sprays only to limited areas such as cracks; don't treat entire floors, walls, or ceilings. Don't let pesticides get on any surfaces that are used for food preparation. Wash any surfaces that may have pesticide residue before placing food on them.

Outdoor Applications. Never apply pesticides outdoors on a windy day (winds higher than 10 mph). Position yourself so that a light breeze does not blow pesticide spray or dust into your face.

Stable in the dark. DT50 50 days (pH 5, room temperature); rapidly decomposed at higher temperatures, in alkaline and strongly acidic media."

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/s...rm+@DOCNO+7372

[Douglas.Curtis]

Originally Posted by Duh!

Indoor Applications. If the label directions permit, leave all windows open and fans operating after the application is completed. If the pesticide product is only effective in an unventilated (sealed) room or house, do not stay there. Put all pets outdoors, and take yourself any your family away from treated areas for at least the length of time prescribed on the label. Apply most surface sprays only to limited areas such as cracks; don't treat entire floors, walls, or ceilings. Don't let pesticides get on any surfaces that are used for food preparation. Wash any surfaces that may have pesticide residue before placing food on them.

Outdoor Applications. Never apply pesticides outdoors on a windy day (winds higher than 10 mph). Position yourself so that a light breeze does not blow pesticide spray or dust into your face.

I love how kittens and roses the directions are, as far as exposure is concerned. Makes you want to go lovingly hug a bottle of Azadirachtin, doesn't it? (gag)

Thanks for that bit of info.

[Gimpy]

So, I've found that grinding aza buds, leaving them under a standard fluorescent light (hovering about 3 inches over the tray), and then using a clean bong and not burning it until it's totally cashes; this seems to take the organ inflammation away, but some muscle pains are still evident.

I just bought and tried an inexpensive portable vape to try some more tests (called a Pulsar APX - $60. Vaporizing isn't bad! I like it. Using the 392 degree fahrenheit setting, no ill effects yet. Any opinions on a degree setting I should use, if you vape?

@Douglas, do you smoke cigarettes or use nicotine products? I think it would be important to take certain variables like tobacco use and medication. I'm waiting to hit 50 posts so I can PM you. I vape nicotine but not compulsively.

I went to my MMP's place today and on his shelf he had a ton of Biocanna/Canna products (CANNABOOST, PK 13/14, CANNAZYM, and RHIZOTONIC). Besides Azamax, I don't think he's using anything else that's harmful. It's actually pretty expensive stuff, and I think he tries his hardest to keep it "organic."

Have a good weekend, guys!

[Douglas.Curtis]

Originally Posted by Gimpy

So, I've found that grinding aza buds, leaving them under a standard fluorescent light (hovering about 3 inches over the tray), and then using a clean bong and not burning it until it's totally cashes; this seems to take the organ inflammation away, but some muscle pains are still evident.

Good details, thank you.

Originally Posted by Gimpy

I just bought and tried an inexpensive portable vape to try some more tests (called a Pulsar APX - $60. Vaporizing isn't bad! I like it. Using the 392 degree fahrenheit setting, no ill effects yet. Any opinions on a degree setting I should use, if you vape?

My first thought is about the vaporization point of aza. I've been dabbing, titanium nail and torch. So far, both vaping and dabbing leave me wanting for additional terpenes or something. Perhaps just not the right extract or temps?

Originally Posted by Gimpy

@Douglas, do you smoke cigarettes or use nicotine products? I think it would be important to take certain variables like tobacco use and medication. I'm waiting to hit 50 posts so I can PM you. I vape nicotine but not compulsively.

Smoked 20+ years, haven't had nicotine in nearly 16 years. Maybe a total of 3-4 hits off of blunts in that time. (gag) Pure cannabis is my joy and tobac just ruins it for me. lol

Originally Posted by Gimpy

I went to my MMP's place today and on his shelf he had a ton of Biocanna/Canna products (CANNABOOST, PK 13/14, CANNAZYM, and RHIZOTONIC). Besides Azamax, I don't think he's using anything else that's harmful. It's actually pretty expensive stuff, and I think he tries his hardest to keep it "organic."

Have a good weekend, guys!

Yep, I can see it being the case. Apparently a LOT of organic growers try to do their best, yet have a blind spot for neem and other organic products. They're labeled "organic."

Cannabis is not like the plants most organic growers have developed their skills with.

[paddyod11]

A lot of the things that Gimpy is mentioning are remarkably similar to my own experiences. I spent months suffering from severe indigestion. I could barely eat anything. It began about a week after switching to a new source of cannabis. I never vomited, but spent most of my time feeling very bloated, with heartburn and feeling in my throat like I was going to vomit. I should add that I have PTSD and the idea of vomiting triggers it. Once I feel in my stomach or throat that I might be sick, I typically spiral into an anxiety attack and then it's impossible to know how nauseous I really am. If I smoke on an empty stomach I have very little discomfort, although I have indigestion the next time I eat. If I smoke after eating, particularly after eating a heavy meal, I almost instantly feel extremely bloated. Coughing makes this effect much worse. Taking a ppi reduced the symptoms significantly but not entirely. After I linked the symptoms to smoking, I stopped for a month. The symptoms were mostly gone but I still noticed indigestion after eating heavy foods. I also still felt as if things didn't go down my esophagus fast enough. If I were drinking something quickly, I'd have to stop because my throat would fill up and I wouldn't be able to swallow. I purchased some cannabis that I was told (through a chain of 3 people, not sure that I got accurate information) wasn't grown with any form of azadirachtin. It produced the same effects in me, although for a much shorter duration because I was only smoking a small amount every few days. Gimpy's comments stuck out to me because my neck and shoulders were hard as a rock and I had tension headaches every day until I stopped smoking, along with jaw pain and occasional tooth pain. Although I noticed it returned during a particularly bad episode of indigestion when I foolishly decided to smoke after eating a sub and coughed a lot. Another similarity with Gimpy is that I've noticed the symptoms are much worse if I smoke the last of the bowl when it's reduced to black/brown resin-y plant material. If I don't kick the bowl it's much better. The most glaring similarity would be when Gimpy said that he felt like his eyes were coming out of his head after microwaving the cannabis. I felt this same feeling during the indigestion when I smoked after eating the sub. I should note that this happened after the second smoke in one day, which I hadn't done in a long time. Very distinct feeling, very scary. It would seem like my problem wasn't caused by aza if the information I received from my source was correct, but I can't doubt that there's something going on here now that I've read what Gimpy went through.

[Douglas.Curtis]

Originally Posted by paddyod11

It would seem like my problem wasn't caused by aza if the information I received from my source was correct, but I can't doubt that there's something going on here now that I've read what Gimpy went through.

Remember, you have to be *very* specific and ask about neem seed meal, neem oil and organic pesticides with azadirachtin in them. It's also possible they are getting clones which have already been treated, so it's not something they would be aware of. Lots of growers are still "Organic is strawberries and creamy goodness," even when it comes to pesticides.

The mirroring of symptoms between you two is scary. So not a 'psychosomatic' thing. lol What are your options for changing suppliers again? Any chance you can set up your own micro-grow?

Eventually this will be fixed...

[Douglas.Curtis]

I wonder if all the "I never used neem anything in my grow" cases of CHS, can be tracked down to using aza treated clones? Haven't thought about that one before, probably not the case as it would make this too easy.

Still a few folks out there who swear up and down there's a 'cannabis only' CHS issue. I don't doubt it, just want to make sure we have this thoroughly taken care of, in the end.

[paddyod11]

I live in Massachusetts so I could easily do my own grow, the only issue is the money I would be spending to potentially find out that my problems are not caused by neem. Somebody I know personally has offered me some of their homegrown, I'm going to give it a try and make sure to get information about everything they used in their grow.

[Douglas.Curtis]

Originally Posted by paddyod11

I live in Massachusetts so I could easily do my own grow, the only issue is the money I would be spending to potentially find out that my problems are not caused by neem. Somebody I know personally has offered me some of their homegrown, I'm going to give it a try and make sure to get information about everything they used in their grow.

Here's hoping it works for you. Getting relief from this is huge and having clean cannabis has been amazingly helpful for me.

Should their stuff be clean and your reaction goes away, you really should get into growing. Check out the micro-grow forum. A couple screw-in LEDs, some decent femmed autos maybe? Use the savings to buy more equipment in a few months.

[Testicles]

I'll chime in with an update. Since I found this thread I have had only one attack. I got neem free weed from my grower friend. My last attack was right after I started hitting the gym. I think working out may have been similar to a stress incident. But it has now been a couple months since I had an attack. I still smoke, but way less. I had been smoking close to an Oz a week for yeas but am only smoking about an 1/8 a week these days. Could be quality, or could be quantity.

I have started eating again. Was beef and fast food free for years. I had a patty melt for the first time in years last week. I feel great! I was passing out every night by 9 but no more. Wish I had figured this out years ago. I'm drinking again, really missed that.

The change to clean weed combined with cutting back and I'm a new man. I smoked everyday for 25y, still do. But one or two doobers a day and I feel great. I went from 265 to under 200 when I was sick. Now i'm holding at 220 and i'm buff as fuck. (i've become a bit of a gym rat)

If you are suffering, try to get some clean herb. It really works. I'm a true believer. Saved my life this thread. I was scared to go anywhere lest I have an attack. I was scared to eat lest I have an attack. I tried cutting everything out of my diet, nothing helped.

Smoking clean, smoking less, and working out. This illness cost me my job, my happiness and almost my wife. But it has been months since an attack. I'f I ever meet Doug, beers on me!