[Coughie]

I've been meaning to do this for a while now, since my original thread was derailed, hijacked and ultimately deleted..

I'm a pretty vibrant color, but I know there's crayons in the box that are brighter than I.. And I've been wanting to appeal to those with that knowledge, hoping that some kind folks here will help me "do this right the first time"..

First off, I understand that this is the beginning of years worth of work, and that's how I've designed it. This is my love, this is what I want..

In order to get this ball rolling in the right direction, I'm going to quote myself:

Originally Posted by Coughie

So besides this idea, I thought I'd share a little bit more of what I'm up to...

I have several Real Seed Company offerings that I plan on doing justice. I want to open pollinate them, and segregate the resulting seeds into phenotypical families upon popping.

I'm hoping each offering will result in at least 3 variations (maybe up to 5) within the seed set, allowing me to turn the 7-8 offerings into 21-24 thru 35-40 different phenotypical landrace families.

I want to then IBL those families towards their selected traits, for pure-landrace recombination later on, as well as for trait-matched landrace hybrid creations.

RSC offerings:
- Chitrali
- Lebanese
- Sinai
- Malana
- Manipuri
- Red Thai
- Mango Thai
- Viet-Laos

And Mazar when they re-release it..


Aside from those, I want to work with the (Peyote Purple x Bubba Kush) genetics from my Coughie idea, and Vader OG's single-release Jawa Pie F2's...

I'm hoping to find males from both gene pools to cross with whatever sort of 'commercial' genetics I can possibly deem worthy.


That gives me three different 'groups' of projects
- The Coughie seedline
- The landrace seedlines
- The commercial seedlines

This is all still pretty much the plan, but I'd like to start this thread off with approaching the Coughie seedline in particular..

I'll have ample questions about landraces, segregating families, when/how/what to recombine later, and what sorts of matchings might make the best landrace hybrids, for which I'm relying quite heavily on The Real Seed Company's 'untamed' releases.. But that's another day, soon..

This is what I'm focused on tackling first:

Originally Posted by Coughie

{[(Coughie x NL5H) x Bubba] x [(Coughie x Velvet Rush) x Bubba]} x (Peyote Purple x Bubba)

The Back Story:

Originally Posted by Coughie

So back around 2004, I came across a bag that was some of the best I've ever had. Soil/earthy/coffee bean/mocha/chocolate aromas, so much frost that the bag stuck to itself and ripped before I smoked the whole quarter... Loaded a bowl, took two hits and took a nap. Woke up to finish it, and took another nap - coming from a guy that can smoke indica and do chores (highly functional smoker), I was absolutely floored/shocked.

The biggest surprise was the ~20 seeds that fell out of the quarter.

Long story short, only one popped, and I named the plant Coughie.



So I want to turn Coughie from a bagseed into a seed line
Not with reversals or anything though; the hard way.

So this is what I've drafted up for a game plan:

{[(Coughie x NL5H) x Bubba] x [(Coughie x Velvet Rush) x Bubba]} x (Peyote Purple x Bubba)

50% Bubba Kush
25% Peyote Purple
12.5% Coughie
6.25% NL5Haze
6.25% Velvet Rush

The aim:
Earthy/coffee bean/mocha/chocolate terpenes
Indica dominant, while keeping some of the NL5H & Velvet Rush heads
Hybrid vigor, short to medium node spacing
Drought tolerant - leathery, thicker leaves


The NL5H pollen is an F3 from some old Coot's stash
The Velvet Rush pollen came from that old Coot's stash too
The Bubba is VerdantGreen's recently released Bubba Kush line
The Peyote Purple from Cannabiogen, a recessive Bubba Kush phenotype

The (Coughie x NL5H) has been completed
The (Coughie x Velvet Rush) will happen soon

I need to then find the Peyote Purple females from my seedstock, as well as sort through VerdantGreen's Bubba Kush for males... Then I can start cracking into (Coughie x NL5H) and (Coughie x Velvet Rush), and get ready to start bringing it all together..

I'd really appreciate any feedback any one could offer though.. here, pm, etc..
This is by far my biggest project right now, but not my only project..

As I stated earlier, the Coughie x NL5H is completed,
And the Coughie x Velvet Rush is underway right now

I've heard from a few folks who were concerned with this plan and me losing the original "Coughie" plant amongst all the crosses.. And I hear you.. But the plant I ended up with, is very-little like her mother... This is definitely an out-cross/accidental pollination, but I have great suspense that the original bag was something Bubba-based..

Coughie, the plant, has some fruity tones, some growth structure, and (maybe someone will agree/disagree) bud structure that is reminiscent of what you'd find in a Bubba x Skunk cross.. Not my favorite thought, the Skunk, but the bud shape is reminiscent of the Katsu cut, with the flowers being more pine-cone shaped than golf-ball shaped like the Pre-98 is, even though thats what the original bag looked like - sticky golf balls.

The fruity tones are a lot akin to what I find in poor imitation Cheese that gets passed around these parts - the 'fruity' Skunk's that they try to pass off as 'Cheese' because it has that same sort of chalky smoke... But its fruit terpenes, instead of stinky feet cheese...

And Cheese is isolated from Skunk itself, yeah?

So with Coughie not being what the mother was, I'm not as concerned with losing this particular expression as I am, in chasing down that mother's expressions...

So the next natural question is - why not just cross Coughie with Bubba and find the phenos you're looking for? Which, I've considered... But if I wanted Bubba in seed form basically, I'd toss Coughie out all together and go with VerdantGreen's Bubba Kush line, and call it a day..

But I want to create something,
I want to create something appealing,
I want to create something unique,

I dont want people to see 'Coughie' and think 'Oh, it's just a Bubba line'... Nothing wrong with that, were that what I aimed for, but that's not my aim here.

Bubba is notoriously slow-growing
And also notoriously indica-expressing

I want to fashion something with more vigor, more head, the same sorts of terpene profiles, but a different experience..

And I'm going to need some help, if anyone would be so-kind..



My first set of questions pertains to these first couple of crosses, naturally..

Coughie x NL5H
Coughie x Velvet Rush
Peyote Purple x Bubba Kush


So I plan to IBL these three crosses separately from the Coughie line, after they've been put to use.. The combinations are too unique to just use for this one project and them toss them into the wind..

My first real question - How far along do I/would you IBL these three lines before moving to the next step of combinations for Coughie project?


With the Coughie x NL5Haze, I've been told that the Haze holds some of the same terpenes that I'm searching for.. So I'm hoping to isolate something that has a sativa head-kick, with those chocolate/mocha/soil terpenes

With the Coughie x Velvet Rush, I'm hoping to accentuate the fruitiness within Coughie, that I speculate came from something Skunk-ish, alongside the flower structure and stretch of Velvet Rush

With the Peyote Purple x Bubba Kush, I'm hoping to find males that are both purple and green, that have all of the soil/earthy/coffee/mocha/chocolate terpenes - more indica expressions to bring the NL5Haze and Velvet Rush counterparts back towards the 50/50 indica/sativa hybrid-expressions..


So, to restate the first question - how far would you go towards IBLing these three crosses before you'd feel (roughly, i understand, can't really know until I do it) comfortable considering proceeding to the next step?


I'm really hoping this thread doesnt get filled with bogusness, as I'd really like to bring together some bright minds if i can, and would love to eventually be able to share some of this hard work, but these things can only happen on a two-way street paved with respect.

Thanks for reading this novel,
Feel free to pitch in,

And let's see where this road leads us all~

[Coughie]

Here is Coughie, as she grows:








(These were taken a few runs ago)

[Coughie]

My set up consists of ( 3 ) 4' x 4' x 7' tents; one for veg and two for flower; and a single 2.5' x 2.5' x 5' tent for drying.

Each flower tent consists of a 150-gallon smart pot centered under a 600 watt HPS, with a carbon filter leading through the air-cooled hood. The two air-cooled hoods come together in a wye, which feeds into a 6" vortex fan, out a duct silencer and into the rest of the house.

Both smart pots are filled with roughly the same mixture, which is essentially Clackamas Coot's original soil 'recipe':

1/3 Compost
1/3 Aeration
1/3 Peat Moss

Per cu. ft.:
1/2 cup Neem Meal
1/2 cup Kelp Meal
1/2 cup Crab Meal
1/2 cup Oyster Shell Flour
1/2 cup Gypsum
~3 cups Rock Dust

One tent is newer than the other, so the original tent has both a Dutch White Clover cover crop as well as the trellis featured in the Coughie pictures above. The newer tent still needs a trellis built and a cover crop established.

I've recently changed things slightly in veg. I used to only veg in 2-gallon smart pots prior to the transplant into the 150-gallon, and could fit anywhere from 4-8 plants in the pot at once.. I've started to veg up to 5-gallon pots, limiting myself to 4 plants per run, but the transformation in veg from 2- to 5-gallon pots has increased the production in flower, exponentially.

This is the first run of Coughie, using the 5-gallon pots in veg and transplanting into the 150-gallon for flower. Coughie is the front-right:

Day 3




Day 17




Day 24




Day 31





I'll post some more pictures as this run finishes up, to give a thorough idea of what it is that Coughie herself is capable of.

[MJPassion]

Sounds like a lot of testing will need done. Fun fun fun!!!

My first real question - How far along do I/would you IBL these three lines before moving to the next step of combinations for Coughie project?

I would select a few moms n pops from the F1 generation then open pollinate each line, keeping the seeds from each mother separate. F2s will be extremely variable in their phenotypes & selection of parent plants could take you quite a while. Look for the very best of the best (subjective to your desires) & start 1:1 crossings for your F3 gen & repeat. You can continue as long as you desire or until you feel the line is stable for you're selection criteria.

I can't give a definitive number of generations until a particular project is complete & I doubt anybody else can either.
You'll have to make that choice based upon what you observe & what you desire.

[Coughie]

Thanks for chiming in, MJPassion

I know its a highly subjective question and is hard to really give anything definitive..
It's more so a question of do I use F2's or F3's when moving to the next step:

(Coughie x NL5H) x Bubba
(Coughie x Velvet Rush) x Bubba

I was leaning towards F3's of (Coughie x NL5H) & (Coughie x Velvet Rush), as the F2's are wildcards like you mentioned - extremely variable - so my thought was that I could sort through the variance and find what I was looking for...

But do I use those F2 females for the Bubba pollen, or use those F2's that I find to make an F3, and use those F3 females for pollination with Bubba males..

Again, upon writing this I was leaning towards using F3's but I didn't want to influence opinions out the gate by saying too much of what I was thinking and ending up with some folks just "nodding and smiling," if you get what I mean.


Then I'll have to chase those two, second-crossings (Bubba-male pollinations), to ~F3 as well, before attempting to combine them with males from one and females from the other.

Where I'll have to IBL it yet again, for a few generations, to isolate some of those Coughie-NL5H-Velvet Rush traits into a couple/handful of phenotypes.

At which point, I can then lay-on the Peyote Purple x Bubba males for the final combo, where I suspect I'll have to run it out to at least F5-F6 before its cohesive enough that I'm comfortable calling it "a line"..


There's lots of IBLing involved across the whole project, which is what made me wonder about how cruical those first couple crossings are with nailing down specific phenotypes.

Is it crucial at that point to nail down the phenotypes, or just keep combining things until all the various genetics are in there..

I hope that all made sense..

Again, thanks for chiming it,
It's greatly appreciated~!

[MJPassion]

If you've already got the Bubba Stud, consider hitting some ladies in the F2 & the F3 & even beyond if you take things that far.

[Coughie]

I haven't dug into the Bubba's yet..

My thoughts on those..
Maybe folks here will see an issue with it that I can't identify..
Or maybe it's 'kosher'..

My thought process:

1. IBL (Coughie x NL5H) to appropriate generation - F2/F3
2. IBL (Coughie x Velvet Rush) to appropriate generation - F2/F3
3. Select 3-4 (Coughie x NL5H) & 3-4 (Coughie x Velvet Rush) females
4. Germinate and select 3-4 Peyote Purple females

**This will give me 9-12 females, total**

5. Germinate Bubba Kush
6. Select 3-4 females, 3-4 males
7. IBL Bubba Kush

8. Pollinate **selected females** with Bubba Kush males


(Coughie x NL5H) & (Coughie x Velvet Rush) F1's are each about ~200 seeds in quantity, and I want to dig through all (90%, always save 10% as a 'back up') of the F1's before I make F2's, so due to the numbers/space game I'm going to need to do this in steps.

Each generation will probably generate more seeds than the previous, which continues the need for a step-by-step process. After one is narrowed down to the select females in the final generation, I can narrow down the next one.

The Peyote Purple females just need to be identified - already IBL'd enough - so that will be a quick step.

The Bubba Kush will come last just because I dont want to have a handful of males lingering for longer than they need be.

But that means its the same 3-4 Bubba males in:

(Coughie x NL5H) x Bubba
(Coughie x Velvet Rush) x Bubba
Peyote Purple x Bubba

.. As well as the Bubba IBL..


Is there a chance that using the same males for all these females, to make each of these three steps - which get combined all together - is there a chance this could wreak genetic havoc later on down the 'IBL line'?

... That's why I dont want to use just 1 male though... Or even a single female for that matter..

[Coughie]

Coughie
Day 45

[MJPassion]

I prefer multiple parentals as well, over 1:1 breeding pairs.

I think you'll have a greater chance to find what you desire, since there's more genetic input, as well as decrease the amount of genetic bottlenecking within a given line.

However, You could also pollinate all the females in rounds with each individual male keeping seed separated. It's a lot more work but using this method would allow you to remove a potential undesirable pollen doner entirely from the project, if his offspring doesn't perform to your desires.

In the end, it's nearly impossible to predict the outcome of a particular NEW crossing.

Coughie looks real nice too, btw.

[rockymountainJ]

Interesting thread!! I'll be watching!