Rice hull substitute in ClackamasCootz' soil mix = ?

lalstalls · Jul 27, 2016

The "aeration deal" in the basic ClackamasCootz soil mix is "pumice, rice hulls, lava rock - whatever is sitting in the garage."

Can you guys help me fill out what else falls under "whatever" here?

I used perlite for this in my soil because I had it. But I don't love it, and I'm finally out of it.

I would like to source locally if possible, and I'm in northern New England, in the U.S. So while I could order rice hulls (there are no rice mills in my state), or get lava rock at HomeDepot ($30/cuft), or something... I would rather use spent microbrew grains, if they would do. Or should I look for some other type of hull? Or another substance that's not coming to mind?

I thought of straw; but one theory says that's "a carbon source that will have to get broken down by microbes using up large amounts of N in the process."

Thanks for your ideas...

VonBudí · Jul 27, 2016

ask you agri stores what they have, hull, husks are used to bulk up feed i think, some one was using buckwheat hulls. ask homebrew stores too.

dont think spent grain would work for aeration.

Microbeman · Jul 27, 2016

I use pea gravel but it is not good for portable containers. It provides aeration/drainage as well as minerals slowly released.

Ratzilla · Jul 27, 2016

If it is drainage you have in mind check out a oil dry from NAPA ( I might have the auto store name confused)It is something like that .
This oil dry is diatomaceous earth.
I use like 5% mix into my mix.
I also use rice hulls @ 10-15% as well as perlite.
Calcium used @ up to 70% of the base saturation ratio makes a very light loamy mix.
When thinking about drainage not having over 20% of humus material like worm castings and other water holding elements mix in goes far in a good draining potting mix.
Ratz :tiphat:

Team Microbe · Jul 28, 2016

lalstalls said:
The "aeration deal" in the basic ClackamasCootz soil mix is "pumice, rice hulls, lava rock - whatever is sitting in the garage."

Can you guys help me fill out what else falls under "whatever" here?

I used perlite for this in my soil because I had it. But I don't love it, and I'm finally out of it.

I would like to source locally if possible, and I'm in northern New England, in the U.S. So while I could order rice hulls (there are no rice mills in my state), or get lava rock at HomeDepot ($30/cuft), or something... I would rather use spent microbrew grains, if they would do. Or should I look for some other type of hull? Or another substance that's not coming to mind?

I thought of straw; but one theory says that's "a carbon source that will have to get broken down by microbes using up large amounts of N in the process."

Thanks for your ideas...

I used rice hulls for the CC mix one time, and by the time I attempted to no till for the first time at the end of that cycle, it was completely broken down :laughing:

I failed hard. But nobody ever told me that rice hulls decomposed so fast! I learned that lesson...

I added red lava rock to my mix after that and plants did much better. You can also use pumice, that's a bit lighter so if you're moving around 45 gallon containers something liek that would be a bit more ideal. Hope that helps

Ratzilla · Jul 28, 2016

Heh heh heh
Now that's so different then what I noticed about the rice hulls.
They last at least 3 cycles in my pots.
Go figure?
Ratz :tiphat:

Weird · Jul 28, 2016

Ratzilla said:
Heh heh heh
Now that's so different then what I noticed about the rice hulls.
They last at least 3 cycles in my pots.
Go figure?
Ratz

it is a difference in soil microbiota, my observation is that mineral density of soil effects the populations thereof.

I use an inert aggregate

bigbadbiddy · Jul 29, 2016

I am one of the guys using buckwheat hulls. heady blunts was another (he inspired me to go with buckwheat hulls).

Was looking for rice hulls too but couldn't get them. Buckwheat hulls were much easier as all these alternative health stores use them as filling in their yoga pillows or whatevs.

Thing with perlite is that it doesn't drain that well, actually.
When watering a soil mix with perlite, water will accumulate in puddles at the top of the soil before draining down.
It doesn't take long to drain down, like in cheap soil mixes. But it is not instant.

I am very happy with the buckwheat hulls on the flipside.
No matter how much water I dump in the pots, it drains basically instantly.
They also don't smell bad, kind of musky.

Can't speak about the decomposition alluded to before, this is my first run with it.

But the soil has cooked for a month and has been in use for a month since and so far the hulls are holding up fine.

I think generally any sort of hulls of grains and such will work.

I bet pistaccio hulls would work great.

Ratzilla · Jul 29, 2016

sorry

Ratzilla · Jul 29, 2016

I want to point out that there is a difference between composted rice hulls and par boiled hulls.
I use the par boiled type and love them.
Here is some more information on par boiled rice hulls.

Rice Hulls are a renewable byproduct of rice production. Rice Hulls are an increasingly popular replacement for perlite in horticultural mixes. They increase aeration without the tendency to float to the top of the pot like perlite will. Naturally provides silica for healthy strong root development. Rice hulls are slow to break down and make a good addition to potting mixes.

In understanding different elements and the amount of air that a mix holds can have different effects on different elements.
My understanding is that par boiled rice hulls have much ( lignin )content which stops them from breaking down easily.
Ratz :tiphat:

Team Microbe · Jul 29, 2016

bigbadbiddy said:
I am one of the guys using buckwheat hulls. heady blunts was another (he inspired me to go with buckwheat hulls).

Was looking for rice hulls too but couldn't get them. Buckwheat hulls were much easier as all these alternative health stores use them as filling in their yoga pillows or whatevs.

Thing with perlite is that it doesn't drain that well, actually.
When watering a soil mix with perlite, water will accumulate in puddles at the top of the soil before draining down.
It doesn't take long to drain down, like in cheap soil mixes. But it is not instant.

I am very happy with the buckwheat hulls on the flipside.
No matter how much water I dump in the pots, it drains basically instantly.
They also don't smell bad, kind of musky.

Can't speak about the decomposition alluded to before, this is my first run with it.

But the soil has cooked for a month and has been in use for a month since and so far the hulls are holding up fine.

I think generally any sort of hulls of grains and such will work.

I bet pistaccio hulls would work great.

Just wait til your microbiology starts pumping... trust me lol

VonBudí · Jul 29, 2016

what about the using straw part?

lalstalls said:
I thought of straw; but one theory says that's "a carbon source that will have to get broken down by microbes using up large amounts of N in the process."

could you soak the straw first in nutes like nettle extract to deal with the N thing?

Team Microbe · Jul 29, 2016

VonBudí said:
what about the using straw part?

could you soak the straw first in nutes like nettle extract to deal with the N thing?

I mulch heavily with barley straw, and multiple times per run with no N deficiencies. I wonder how much N is really used?

Isn't the carbon to nitrogen ratio in the composting process something minute like 30:1?

And when used as a top dressing (and NOT layered in compost) will it be broken down fast enough to be of concern?

Maybe if it was of enough concern one could simply top dress lightly in alfalfa meal, or sow a light crimson clover cover crop?

EDIT: I just realized you were contemplating on using straw as a perlite replacement. My bad! (I wouldn't recommend it)

Aphotic · Jul 29, 2016

VonBudí said:
what about the using straw part?

could you soak the straw first in nutes like nettle extract to deal with the N thing?

Absolutely, sort of like bio char, FYI, I used coots mix as a guide, I used half pumice, half perlite, both are local to me. Plus a ton of bio char, and wood chips. I soaked neither in any thing nitrogen based. But CCs mix has a ton of neem meal, and my compost is a little hot. I also watered with ACT every time I watered, I'd think that would elevate the nitrogen aqusition to deal with the extra carbon, yet I had no nitrogen issues.

I've heard others comment that CCs mix runs hot, maybe get a cheap soil test, see where your n levels are, then decide.

If you're planning on using the soil long term, I would think you would want your aeration device to be long term also.

Aphotic · Jul 29, 2016

As far as rice hulls go, yes they contain silica, but many rock dusts are loaded with it, as is most if not all compost, DE is pretty much pure silica, as is pumice, perlite, etc, I would imagine if your mix is lacking silica, you have much larger issues to think about first. Also an excess of silica can make stems brittle, and prone to snapping vs bending, or so I've read.

lalstalls · Jul 29, 2016

VonBudí said:
ask you agri stores what they have, hull, husks are used to bulk up feed i think, some one was using buckwheat hulls. ask homebrew stores too.

I can get

a 50# of OMRI rice hulls for $47 (shipped);
about 15# of non-organic rice hulls for ~$1.75/pound from a nearby brew supply shop;
25# of organic buckwheat hulls for $37.25 through a buying club;
.5 cuft of lava rock from BuildASoil, shipped for $10. How far would that go?

Microbeman said:
I use pea gravel but it is not good for portable containers. It provides aeration/drainage as well as minerals slowly released.

I'm mostly using portable totes under 30 gal. Might "expanded clay rocks" up to 16mm (e.g., used as hydroponic growing media) work?

Ratzilla said:
If it is drainage you have in mind check out a oil dry from NAPA. [] This oil dry is diatomaceous earth.

Thanks Ratz. I'll definitely use some diatomaceous earth. But is Oil Dri just like diatomaceous earth? Or more salty? I'm not sure how to mix it into my soil correctly...

Team Microbe said:
.... I added red lava rock to my mix after that and plants did much better. You can also use pumice, that's a bit lighter so if you're moving around 45 gallon containers something liek that would be a bit more ideal.

Thanks for the tip on lava rock - and the good point about pumice's more favorable schlepping weight!

bigbadbiddy said:
I am one of the guys using buckwheat hulls. heady blunts was another (he inspired me to go with buckwheat hulls).

Was looking for rice hulls too but couldn't get them. Buckwheat hulls were much easier as all these alternative health stores use them as filling in their yoga pillows or whatevs....

I bet pistaccio hulls would work great.

I've looked for buckwheat hulls, and although I see them online, I haven't found a local source. The few grain mills near enough to me save hulls for some farmers; and the food coop in town doesn't carry them.

I like this pistachio prospect - not that I have a source. But I like that it's outside my box.

VonBudí said:
what about the using straw part?

could you soak the straw first in nutes like nettle extract to deal with the N thing?

Excellent thought!

Aphotic said:
Absolutely, sort of like bio char.... get a cheap soil test, see where your n levels are, then decide.

I'd be interested to see how this goes...

------

Thanks, all.

Perhaps I'll have the OMRI rice hulls shipped, and mix them for "the aeration deal" with pumice or lava rock.

Still looking, though...

Aphotic · Jul 29, 2016

lalstalls said:
I can get

a 50# of OMRI rice hulls for $47 (shipped);

about 15# of non-organic rice hulls for ~$1.75/pound from a nearby brew supply shop;

25# of organic buckwheat hulls for $37.25 through a buying club;

.5 cuft of lava rock from BuildASoil, shipped for $10. How far would that go?

I'm mostly using portable totes under 30 gal. Might "expanded clay rocks" up to 16mm (e.g., used as hydroponic growing media) work?

Thanks Ratz. I'll definitely use some diatomaceous earth. But is Oil Dri just like diatomaceous earth? Or more salty? I'm not sure how to mix it into my soil correctly...

Thanks for the tip on lava rock - and the good point about pumice's more favorable schlepping weight!

I've looked for buckwheat hulls, and although I see them online, I haven't found a local source. The few grain mills near enough to me save hulls for some farmers; and the food coop in town doesn't carry them.

I like this pistachio prospect - not that I have a source. But I like that it's outside my box.

Excellent thought!

I'd be interested to see how this goes...

------

Thanks, all.

Perhaps I'll have the OMRI rice hulls shipped, and mix them for "the aeration deal" with pumice or lava rock.

Still looking, though...

If you have hydroton (expanded clay pellets), why not just use that. I like pumice, I'm certain you can find a local source. I assume you planning in using this mix in a notill situation, or are you going to recycle it every round? Rice hulls are great and all I'm sure, but they seem like a fad, just another byproduct of industry that's being pushed on growers, because someone needs to get rid of it, there's a reason they use things like that to bulk up animal feed. If your planning on notill, you might want to consider something that will last longer. Or at the very least, use some rice hulls, but a larger portion of, pumice, lava rock, pea gravel, or hydroton, etc.

After one cycle my soil ate all my bamboo stakes holding up my plants, I can imagine rice hulls would be dust right now in my beds.

lalstalls · Jul 29, 2016

Aphotic said:
If you have hydroton (expanded clay pellets), why not just use that.

Thanks for picking this up. Some of mine are fairly large pellets. Maybe I should crack them down to a smaller size before adding to soil?

Aphotic said:
I like pumice, I'm certain you can find a local source.

This is good to hear. I've tried a few local rock-gravel-landscape places looking for pumice or lava rock. No dice yet (well, one guy will sell me a 50# bag for $79.99). I'll keep at it.

4:40. Time for another.

Aphotic · Jul 29, 2016

lalstalls said:
Thanks for picking this up. Some of mine are fairly large pellets. Maybe I should crack them down to a smaller size before adding to soil?

This is good to hear. I've tried a few local rock-gravel-landscape places looking for pumice or lava rock. No dice yet (well, one guy will sell me a 50# bag for $79.99). I'll keep at it.

4:40. Time for another.

Omg! That's outrageous, out here I get a pickup load for around $20. Hmm, yeah if you felt the clay is too big you could crush some of it, maybe put it in a burlap or heavy duty bag and run it over with you car? Lots of folks I know use it in their soil mixes as is, you used to be able to get bags with several sizes, now I think its all one size. Lava rock is a pretty common landscape rock, I'm surprised you can't find it.

I get pumice and perlite so cheap out here, I keep thinking I should bag it and sell it.

If you can't find anything else, there's nothing wrong with perlite and clay, especially if you have mulch on the top, floating perlite won't be an issue, at least its not for me. All perlite is, is heat treated pumice. If you go the no till route, and leave your root balls in the soil to decompose, you'll get even more aeration, throw in some worms, and you'll get even more. Realistically, I'm wondering after so many cycles if it even matters if rice hulls decompose, with the mulch, roots, organisms, etc. Your soil would probably be nice and airy anyways, at least that's been my experience outdoors, after years of chop and dropping, adding compost, mulch, etc, without pumice, perlite, or any other aeration device that's common in cannabis\nursery culture.

Aphotic · Jul 29, 2016

Oil dry is DE, but not all DE is equal. There is food grade, medical grade, etc. Lots of people use oil dry in their soil, I'm happy with red lake DE, its more expensive, but it contains DE and calcium bentonite, both are rad for your soil, but wouldn't be good at all for aeration. I believe oil dry comes in bigger chunks, I can't remember. But its made to absorb, I'm not sure it would be a good aeration device.

Rice hull substitute in ClackamasCootz' soil mix = ?

Member

&#12542;(&#8976;&#9632;_&#9632;)&#12494;

The Logical Gardener

Member

Active member

Member

3rd-Eye Jedi

Active member

Member

Member

Active member

&#12542;(&#8976;&#9632;_&#9632;)&#12494;

Active member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ

ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ