[siftedunity]

yeah but what about the inbreeding issues like the ressesives, slow growth, poor health, genetic drift..etc? I understand you are trying to achieve a uniform gg4 in seed form but I think the problems remain to be seen regards defects etc. even bx2s can lose vigour completely compeared to the original. id hate to see what would happen after so much bx'ing and inbreeding. jmo, I hope im wrong but the science and other examples point that way.

[Tonygreen]

I think it depends on selection, really.
I notice no difference in vigor from the f1 to the bx3 so far except in the recessive phenos. The dominant phenos blow up, so far so good.

With careful selection the back cross process can purge recessives. The main problems of going past a bx4 from what I know is segregation of traits. I don't plan to go that far and meiosis with a 2nd NIL will erase any vigor loss that has occurred even with careful selection.

Also that the slate is swept clean somewhat when I obtain a second NIL and recombine to make the 1st RIL. Thats the beauty of meiosis!

Think about the mexicans who inbred maize and the corn we have today. If start inbreeding with the recessive phenos I think you would see more affects like you mention.

All speculation of course until we actually do it and see! Bx4 gets us almost 25% of the way there and it only took 4 years.

[Ganoderma]

Originally Posted by Tonygreen

The intial goals Dan and I have been met, you can find phenos we were looking for in many of the side lines I created bx1f1 etc. Dan wanted a glue pheno with more structure, I wanted a sour bubble with vigor unlocked. You can find both of those easily in many of the side branches of the family. The terpene profile of the gg4 is easy to find in any plant in a pack basically.

Going forward with my studies the goals have increased.
You cannot stabilize a genotype with back crossing alone.
After I obtain the RIL, it is possible to stabilize the genome completely within roughly 11 generations or so.
If I get to that point I will still be under 50 years old and believe I will have a p-1 pool to make supreme F1's that will be unmatched. People hold on to their homozygous lines, if you want one you have to basically make your own... I, like many am tired of watered down F1's. A true F1 made with two distinct stable lines can potentially blow random poly hybrid f1's out of the water.
So it is all work with the eye for the future dude.

There are a few bx3's I made and I am selecting for the bx4 now.
Then onto working the other NIL I need. I have one at bx1...
Ideally I would like several NIL to work with toward the RIL project.

It will be some time, much work to do, might not ever get there... In the meantime these bx lines are truly made for outcrossing and providing keeper cuts, they will combine exceptionally well and make supreme F1's, a side benefit of the work in the meantime.

Also to comment on the negative side affects of inbreeding. I believe these can be minimized with proper selection. To be sure their is some mutants, the recessive phenos have decreased every bx.
But the dominant phenos maintain vigor really well. One of my vigor tests is a topping test where I judge many responses to topping. I think this has allowed the line to remain vigorous.
The two main overall phenos (glue dom/sour b dom/recessive) are easy to pick out from seedling at this point.

Have you thought about using several males instead of just one for each cross/breeding that is being done. The use of several males is like using several females (if you where). You'll have a little more cushion against loss of vigor, or at least slow it's effect from showing as fast.

[siftedunity]

Originally Posted by Tonygreen

I think it depends on selection, really.
I notice no difference in vigor from the f1 to the bx3 so far except in the recessive phenos. The dominant phenos blow up, so far so good.

With careful selection the back cross process can purge recessives. The main problems of going past a bx4 from what I know is segregation of traits. I don't plan to go that far and meiosis with a 2nd NIL will erase any vigor loss that has occurred even with careful selection.

Also that the slate is swept clean somewhat when I obtain a second NIL and recombine to make the 1st RIL. Thats the beauty of meiosis!

Think about the mexicans who inbred maize and the corn we have today. If start inbreeding with the recessive phenos I think you would see more affects like you mention.

All speculation of course until we actually do it and see! Bx4 gets us almost 25% of the way there and it only took 4 years.

interesting plan. do you mean heterosis? I do agree, and I hope it works out. I understand a lot more about genetics in animals but but im sure many concepts are the same. going deeper into the conversation about what happens to recessives at that point is beyond my knowledge so I hope it works.. all I would guess is that you will be better off with a decent selection of the bx4 hybrids just in case. chimera was a wealth of knowledge with this kinda stuff. ive got a rare clone I want to preserve, but I was thinking of trying and s1 then s2 etc (using open pollinations of multiple s1s then s2s etc) and avoiding any males completely. im not sure if that will work. if it fails and yours works out I will steal your idea lol. it ill be interesting to try though.

[Tonygreen]

Yes I have, an excellent method to preserve an overall genetic pool, inter sex origins of the line worry me with that method though. Also the scoring system of my testing is producing a top selection every time that is the most glue leaning and sexually stable I could hope for and many more of a hybrid nature that do not have the supreme structure so I dont use them. It is also important for me to use males I know are sexually stable to minimize intersex expression, so far so good.

Also at the RIL point loss of any vigor should be a moot point. The bx3 vigor is outstanding I really see no difference from the f1 in the dominant phenos.
Check out noyds bx2 moms.
An as I mentioned honestly guys I am only seeing any vigor loss in the recessive phenos. One more step to bx4 if it all comes crashing down the next generation I will rethink my position!
Every generation is documented for the last four years so its all there to see.
To be fair she will never be an exact replica of gg4 probably, but the main end goal is to provide a line with a truly stable genotype of top notch quality that I can then use to make supreme F1's in stead of poly's.
You can deffo tell she is glue fam at this point with gg4 structure phenos to be found reliably but not uniformly across every bean yet even though the terps are very reliably there.

They been lieing to us telling us a "cubed" version stabilizes a clone especially if you start with an outcross to an unrelated population.
That will only get you part of the way there.

[Tonygreen]

Originally Posted by siftedunity

interesting plan. do you mean heterosis? I do agree, and I hope it works out. I understand a lot more about genetics in animals but but im sure many concepts are the same. going deeper into the conversation about what happens to recessives at that point is beyond my knowledge so I hope it works.. all I would guess is that you will be better off with a decent selection of the bx4 hybrids just in case. chimera was a wealth of knowledge with this kinda stuff. ive got a rare clone I want to preserve, but I was thinking of trying and s1 then s2 etc (using open pollinations of multiple s1s then s2s etc) and avoiding any males completely. im not sure if that will work. if it fails and yours works out I will steal your idea lol. it ill be interesting to try though.

Tom Hill would probably approve of my plan if I made the NIL via selfing instead of using the male. haha! He would say im probably wasting time.
I may pursue a femmed NIL after I get this first bx4 done, not sure yet.

Chimera has a wealth of knowledge that I respect greatly even if we disagree at times. If I had his testing capabilities it would be much easier. He doesn't care for me though, ha! If i had testing available like he did for his cookie project things would be much easier. All I have to go by is my eyes, ears, nose and math. So far so good... I dont proclaim to be the best expert but just try to keep learning as I go along doing my work and I try to keep it real about what I'm thinking and the math and methods.

[siftedunity]

I think the cubed thing works but still going to get variation there. ive seen a bx2 which Is identical in every way to the original. the bud was identical too. so it can be done. but then ive also grown bx2's which had lost every ounce of vigor in the process and all the plants were different. and that was with an open pollination of males too. so who knows. you should be putting all this passion into a rare cut or something!.. I love gg4 but theres a lot of it around. its good for preservation in seed for the future or for people who cant get the clone though.

[Tonygreen]

ya it works if you have a mostly homozygous population to start! They always leave that part out!

It will/does help people who cant get the cut, like i say the terp profile is relaible and easy to find, but the main end goal like I say is my own homozygous stable line of top notch quality to make supreme F1's.
If I ever have a legendary cut I predict it will come from those crossings, but there may be one or two found before then.

The way I see it we all only got so many years to get shit done, i dont want to one off shit my whole life, Id like to achieve a higher goal.
As you can see its work, 4 years of my life so far,,, if i was doing a bunch of different shit it would never get done ha!
I won't ever be famous for weed but the outcrosses of GB will live on long after im gone im betting.

[siftedunity]

Originally Posted by Tonygreen

Tom Hill would probably approve of my plan if I made the NIL via selfing instead of using the male. haha! He would say im probably wasting time.
I may pursue a femmed NIL after I get this first bx4 done, not sure yet.

Chimera has a wealth of knowledge that I respect greatly even if we disagree at times. If I had his testing capabilities it would be much easier. He doesn't care for me though, ha! If i had testing available like he did for his cookie project things would be much easier. All I have to go by is my eyes, ears, nose and math. So far so good... I dont proclaim to be the best expert but just try to keep learning as I go along doing my work and I try to keep it real about what I'm thinking and the math and methods.

hmm. even chimera told me I should s1 first to preserve my clone. and in all fairness these people know their shit better than me so I would tend to believe them. at the end of the day passion gets you very far in this hobby. id love to take a course in plant genetics but id have to add it to the bucket list!

[Tonygreen]

ya tom told me males are a waste of time. He is right I think haha!
Why did i make a male to start my first NIL then? Because in this case it is very hard to find a real true gg4 dom pheno in the s1, possible but beyond my numbers reach.
The process we started with made it easier to select a gg4 dom plant to start back crossing. I ran threw a few s1;s not thousands but alot, hard to find really...

If everyone inbred a bit before doing there crosses things would improve across the board!

Try asking breeders to release their homozygous breeding lines, they will generally bristle and gruff up at the suggestion.
I am going to make my own and everyone can use it.
If i make it that far knock on wood!