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Old 07-31-2006, 02:17 AM   #16
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Hi Nate,
A thai OGer sent me seeds labeled "Black Market Thai"(straight from Thailand)
Robust seeds with a hard shell.I germinated one so far,last season and gave the plant to a friend that grew her outdoors....
what a huge tree!!
with exaggerated meandering stalk and branches,and even those were unequal in lenght!!
Unfortunately she never ended....just tiny buds by mid December
I´m not going to grow more of these....
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:29 AM   #17
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A cool but tragic story Raco! I bet it was an awesome tree
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:36 AM   #18
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pollen travel relies heavily on it being dry and windy. if you get rain or high humidity. don't count on such far distances
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:14 AM   #19
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"Most Thai strains are very late-maturing and subject to hermaphrodism. It is not understood whether strains from Thailand turn hermaphrodite as a reaction to the extremes of northern temperate weather or if they have a genetically controlled tendency towards hermaphrodism."

the high % of Thai hermaphroditism is not related to "extremes of northern temperate weather".......grow Thai seed in Florida or Southern Cali or Northern Australia for example and they'll hermie too with the same frequency as they do in Isaan!.

I've grown Thai seeds on the 25th Lat Nth for many years in the bush in prepared plots and they hermied with regularity (high rainfall, hot temps, two crops of rice per year growing area).....but it's still not that hard to grow Thai sense, plant more seeds than you think you'll need, then simply cull the males, runts and hermies as they appear....I've grown Thais under lights and in pots too..the occurance of hermies was the same as those grown naturally under the sun in the ground. These seeds were from numerous varied sources of commercial Thai bud in the 80's

out of eg 16 Thai seeds you'll get 3 or 4 males (with some showing females flowers), 6 ~ 10 hermies (that will appear at any stage during flowering) and 2,3 or 4 females that don't hermie or show minor hermie tendancies very late in flowering ...rarely are Thai hermies restricted to one branch as seen with some strains, males flowers on females tend to appear scattered thinly or thickly throughout the tree.

I do not believe that these Thai hermie traits are in any way influenced by environmental or photoperiod pressures (within reason that is), imho the primary cause of Thai hermaphroditism is genetic

Raco - it's a pity you couldn't clone that Thai with the asymetrical growth pattern....I found that Thai plants with no central cola that grew more like a "willow tree" tended to have a more trippier high and had several unique traits like complete leaf drop at harvest..but they also tended to hermie more than the Xmas tree growth pattern Thais. the best way to grow Thais and other long flowering sativa landraces is with clones taken in the month or two after they show sex. label them and end up keeping the clones from non-hermie plants......clones will stay more compact and trigger into flowering a little faster than seeds as they are sexually mature....these clones can be kept alive during Winter and planted out in Spring...and they will finish in Nov or Dec..while seedlings started early in the year might not mature until Jan or Feb...but this is not chisled in stone.....I've had seedlings finish in late Nov ~ Feb..if you live in an area with colder Nov ~ Jan , then plan ahead and plant these Thais against a south facing wall so they get warmth and maximum sun in the last trimester of flowering (when they need it!)

Chock Dee!

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Old 07-31-2006, 03:36 AM   #20
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if viable pollen from Morrocco could travel to Spain then where are all the complaints from Spanish cannabis growers?

In my experience cannabis pollen travels much in the same way as the above study.....very localized..I used to grow from seed mostly, and would partially or lightly seed most of the females i grew...99% of this was controlled, even though males were in the vicinity (on the same 3 or 4 square miles..some were very close....10 metres or less away)...though I did mostly take a few precautions like cutting back the males close to the ground and down to one branch..or simply pushed them down horizontal to the ground and tipped them heavily before pollen drop, allowing only a few male flowers to drop pollen....a tiny branch will provide enough pollen to makes hundreds of seeds...Thai seed readily drops from the tree when mature.

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Old 07-31-2006, 03:55 AM   #21
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Hi Chamba,welcome to the discussion
I have to leave right now,will come back tomorrow
If you want those Black Market Thai seeds,just drop a pm
PS:Bacchus found one of those willows when he grew out some of my Destroyer x Destroyer x Destroyer
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Old 07-31-2006, 04:06 AM   #22
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In my experience of living in Northern Thailand, I would only infrequently encounter seeds in ganja, perhaps one or two fully mature seeds every ounce or so, if at all


when was this?....I found that 80's commerical Thai brick contained lots of seeds....a bag of Thai brick weed (pressed and sold for export in the shape of a telephone book) would lose 40% of it's weight if you removed every branch, stick and seed.....

and in my few trips there in the late 90's/early 00's I could of sworn the bud I bought was 50% Haze .....

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Old 07-31-2006, 04:16 AM   #23
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Namkha wrote in all likelihood the reason Westerner breeders complain of Thai hermies is that their lines of Thai plants originate from seeds picked out of packs of Thai sensi and not from seeds obtained from village growers, as they ought to

they probably picked out their original selections from Thai brick weed....(though we used to get some very good quality commercial Thai bud with relatively small amounts of seed..but mostly heavily seeded)

You are right Namkha - those old Isaan rice farmers with a few stands of ganja growing each year for themselves...these genes would more likely have less chance of being muddied with introduced genes and would be the best seeds to grow in search of the "real Thai".

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Old 07-31-2006, 04:23 AM   #24
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good thread Namkha!..tell us more about the growth pattern, the high and other aspects of these small plots of Thais....I used to spend 6 months of the year in Thailand for 10 years....Thailand in the 80's was pre-AIDS, pre-drug crackdown and pro-fun!

thanks for the offer Raco!...but I've never been involved with seed swapping on the internet (in all my 11 years or so of posting!)..but if I did I would probably request the seeds be sent to Gypsy's Seed boutique in Amsterdam and I could pick them up personally when I travel there again (but I've no immediate plans to go there unfortunately!)
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:38 AM   #25
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if they kill the males how do they make seed? Do they just use the seed available? (which if there no males and seeds its herm beans) Maybe thats why it herms they keeo growing herm beans. The males are probably all ruined in that breed...
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:39 AM   #26
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I hope I don't come across as being a know it all about Thai strains....all I've done is grow less than a few hundred Thais a dozen or two at a time scattered in a few bush plots over the years for personal consumption....I also haven't grown a Thai tree for a decade, so it would be great to hear from those who have grown Thais from seeds sourced in the 70's (before introduced genes) and those who live there and grow for quality, not quantity.....

the tallest cannabis plant I've grown was a Thai, also the most vigorous, the strongest, the longest flowering, the most hermies and the one with the absolute best ever high were all Thai specimens....

let's hear more about original Thai Landraces.......but please let's not pollute this thread with mention of so called "Thai" hybrids offered from seed banks or breeders as they should be spoken about in a separate thread as from the looks of 99% of them I've seen online they seem to contain a maximum of 20% or 30% Thai genes in them even if they are sold as "100% Thai" ..(and they finish in under 10 or 12 weeks and they are 100% Thai ...lol give me a break..4 or 5 months more like it!.....and all this talk of lemon or chocolate Thai - I smoked nothing but Thai bud for 10 years, from a wide variety of sources and never experienced lemon, chocolate or tooty-fruity!...from my experience all Thais have a unique dry, earthy taste and so do the Thais grown outside Thailand..the first I heard of these choc or lemon was from those trying to sell Thai hybrids online,...so go figure)

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Old 07-31-2006, 05:51 AM   #27
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I bred with selected Thais for years......selecting true females and males, crossing selections from the next generation, rejecting any with a hint of ka-toey-ism, collecting seed, smoke testing, more planting etc ...but 3 or 5 years down the road, heartbreakingly, hermies appeared (and this was in an area where you can grow all year round)...probably, the only way to bred a non-hermie "Thai" line is to introduce non-Thai genes ....or just accept that hermies are a part of growing Thai ganja and so plant more than required and cull hard.....from my experience the best highs came from Thai plants that were asymetrical in growth, took forever to finish and hermied!

so I'd say that if you were successful in selecting and breeding a non-hermie Thai line, you'd probably lose the unique strong, trippy high that Thais used to be known for.

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Old 07-31-2006, 04:17 PM   #28
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heya Chamba and all, wadee, good reading, cheers

a couple of things you wrote have already slipped my mind lol, however -

[edit - everything you have said so far sounds persuasiv reagrding hermies being genetic]

my main experience of rural Thailand is from 2000 onwards; mainly 2005 when I lived and worked up in Chiang Mai
I also spent quite a while down in Lopburi province, which is largely ethnically Burmese, and has a strong shamanic tradition - plenty of funky herbs such as kratom and that
[edit: I would do roughly the same thing as you Chamba and do half year stints, sometimes longer]

I believe you are spot on regarding all this bollocks about chocolate Thai and fruity what-not
after spening a total of several years in Thailand I do not have the slightest recollection of ever once encountering such flavours, nor ever hearing Thais describe weed as such
always much as you described - dry, though complex, aromas, if that makes sense - vauguely like nice loose leaf Indian tea, though with a deeper more resinous narcotic edge, and nothing remotely sweet about it

good unseeded Thai weed is IME not hard to come by in Chaing Mai city and the northern dois, including in traditional form
the weed I was smoking there was good - as intensely psychedelic as any I have smoked, a little racy at times, but I kind of like that

I don't have much experience of Isan itself, beyond a love of the food and the women lol - man I fucking love lab and dab wan!

I am curious where you got your seeds though - I presume you also took them from bags you had bought - that is fairly central to my conspiracy theory regarding hermies - or "katoey-ism", which I think I will call it from now on lol [edit - seem is it is liely genetic though as you say]

ah yes, the horror: boys turning into ladies, ladies turning into boys - ai sandan!

Namkha

edit: re. pollen Spanish growers do keep an eye on pollen counts from what I hear

edit edit: my knowledge of rural attitudes and practice re. ganja is purely from time spent in home villages of various giks and gfs - I never encountered plants directly, nor did I ever (deliberatley) grow myself - whenever a seed popped in our garden I killed it strtaight away

though as I say, seeds were infrequent in the ganja I smoked up in Chiang Mai, and likewise the info I have on the way people grow in rural areas is from talking directly with Thais in villages and rural towns - I also knew some Thais who grew down on Koh Tao, just up in the patches of jungle, but by their own admission their ganja was not a patch on what was available up in the north (still several times better than all this couch-lock crap)
plus needless to say, life on Koh Tao is a far cry from life in rural Thailand

I never collected seeds nor asked to see plants etc. - something I regret now; I doubt they would have been comfortable with having me visit their patch, but I could have got seeds no probs

Namkha

edit: hey Chamba - what is your take on contamination of Thai genes by outside sources, exactly? Would this be Westerners introducing seeds, or Thais pruchasing from abroad? The latter seems highly improbable to me, the former unlikely to make a significant difference, I would think.
I occasionally see importerd Thai in the UK, and I have smoked Thai sold in the Dam coffeeshops. Needless to say, what I smoked up in Northern Thailand blew the others out of the water.

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Old 07-31-2006, 07:54 PM   #29
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heya Nate,

In answer to your question about getting hold of good Thai seeds, this is my 2c:

I would personally base myself in Chiang Mai, the main city in Northern Thailand (Thailand roughly divides into Southern, Central, North-Eastern (Isaan) and Northern (roughly what was the Lanna Kingdom)

in Chiang Mai you will find a pretty vibrant ex-pat community, many - if not all - of whom are seasoned smokers. I would hunt down some old-timers there, most importantly some old-timers who speak good Thai and are hanging out with sound Thai chicks (i.e. not the sweaty old gits in t-shirts with syphylitic whores on their arm)

pm me and I will give you the name of some bars where you are likely to find such folk - free-lancers, academics, scientists, art dealers etc. Chiang Mai is a small place, you could suss it yourself, but I may be able to save you some time

Get chatting to such folk and they will invite you for a smoke anyway. Then talk about how to get out to the villages in the mountains/hills (doi) to get hold of some pukka strains.

The best cover you could have would probably be to travel out with some scientists. There are many botanists, entemologists, herpetologists etc. about, what with Thailand being so crazily rich in flora and fauna, many of whom will have their own places out in the hills. They will know the score with where is and is not safe to travel. Merrely going hunting for orchids has it's dangers, you know.

I would certainly not advise heading out there on a motorbike on your own, though you will have no problem doing that if you want. Motorbikes are available for hire everywhere - go for the scramblers, as all but the main roads are rough.

any other questions feel free to ask, and I will help as much as I can

edit: you will likely be offered smoke in villages if you go trecking, but bear in mind that there is a fairly high police presence on many of the main roads through the North. IME they are not actually looking to stop "farang" (meaning basically white foreigners) but this is not something to gamble on. Many backpackers will drive out of town to a couple of popular spots to buy their weed and bring it back in. I would leave that to the maniacs. Carry seeds by all means, but never herb.

Namkha

Last edited by namkha; 07-31-2006 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 08-01-2006, 05:03 AM   #30
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I occasionally see importerd Thai in the UK, and I have smoked Thai sold in the Dam coffeeshops. Needless to say, what I smoked up in Northern Thailand blew the others out of the water.

when bud is poorly dried, no cure, roughly handled, crushed, packed, stored, transported and dried out it loses potency.......the older and drier it is, the weaker the high. I had an excellent source of ganja in Thailand, the bud was fresh, not dried out and the high was first class most times...though sometimes it was a little old and dry and not as good

.....plus ganja grown in massive qualtities for $$$, not for the love of the plant & it's high, will always be a poor second to good "home grown" or from small plots nurtured by a smoker/gardener
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