[socioecologist]

If those are the only two labs your looking at, I would suggest you broaden your horizons a bit. I'm not posting the official terpene results from our lab, hopefully you can understand why. The only plant we ran in the field last season is high in alpha-pinene, camphene, myrcene, beta-pinene, limonene, linalool, humulene, and guaiol. It has decent amounts of beta-caryophyllene, trans-nerolidol, and alpha-bisabolol. This is on a 25:1 CBD:THC plant with 12% CBD and an early harvest--1.75 pounds per plant in the field with a June first planting.

We all gain a better understanding of what's possible by doing.

[Bubbleblower]

Your terpene results show;

Your strain is high in myrcene with more than 50% of the terpenes.
Alpha-pinene is the second terpene, but there is less of it than on average in regular cannabis.
The same goes for all the other tested terpenes except alpha-bisabolol.

You would really gain a much better understanding of what's possible by listening to what you refer to as the end-user side.
Eventually everybody will figure out what we (in the Netherlands) already know; high CBD strains are crap.
Trully medicinal cannabis is by definition rich in terpenes in a wide spectrum and has some THC in it.

Originally Posted by Gizmo

Hello Bubbleblower, could you link me the talk about myrcene and shantibaba advice please ? thank you

Here it is.
Myrcene causes cancer in the liver and kidneys among other diseases;

Complex histopathologic response in rat kidney to oral β-myrcene: an unusual dose-related nephrosis and low-dose alpha2u-globulin nephropathy.

TOXICOLOGY AND CARCINOGENESIS STUDIES OF BETA-MYRCENE

[socioecologist]

Uhhhh....really? You have my lab's terpene results? Obviously not, because myrcene is not 50% of the terpene content of the particular variety I referenced. You are not making much sense at this point and making some outlandish insinuations.

[Bubbleblower]

You are right it could be slightly less, but myrcene is always the dominant terpene.
I don't need your lab results for that, because all high CBD strains have the same profile.
Here you have hundreds of such profiles and not one single exception.

[socioecologist]

Sorry dude, if you're not growing unique plants, you're likely to see similar results since most people just share interrelated clones. There are a lot of potential terpene combinations that don't include myrcene.

That said, why the hate for myrcene? I've read the literature and it's benefits far outweigh any potential negative impacts--keep in mind also that the study claiming a potential link to cancer used a pure myrcene isolate in mice, not a whole cannabinoid extract with synergistic interactions. If myrcene is so bad, we better outlaw IPAs, since most high alpha acid hops contain 4x-8x the myrcene of even the richest myrcene containing cannabis varieties.

Remind me what this has to do with Therapy again please? Does any of this change the results of our tests on Therapy ratios?

EDIT: here's the link to the NIH carcinogen study: https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/lt_rpts/tr557.pdf

Page 5 will provide you all the data you need to conclude that myrcene rich cannabis is NOT a cancer potentiator. In the high dose group (which died of cancer in the study), mice received pure myrcene at 1000mg / kg of body weight. Studies of CBD efficacy suggest a useful dose range between 5mg-25mg / kg of body weight; even in a myrcene dominant high CBD variety, that would translate to 1mg-5mg / kg of myrcene ingested. We're talking about 200x-1000x less myrcene than was used in the mouse study; more importantly, the myrcene would also be consumed with anti-cancer cannabinoids and other terpenes. In my opinion (and it's informed by science), there is zero cause for alarm.

[Bubbleblower]

The Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assesment has determined;
"Beta-Myrcene meets the criteria for listing as known to the State to cause cancer under Proposition 65, based on findings of the NTP" (the study we now both linked)
https://oehha.org/proposition-65/crnr...t-beta-myrcene.


There are a lot of potential terpene combinations that include only a little myrcene, but high CBD strains >20:1 are always myrcene dominant and Therapy is no exception.

It would be nice of you to confirm Therapy is indeed myrcene dominant, instead of suggesting I got my information from just a few labs.
PCA scatter plots show high CBD strains cluster in a chemically distinct group that is myrcene dominant.
If your Therapy is not myrcene dominant it is not high CBD either.

[socioecologist]

I'll say it one last time: the doses used in the study establishing myrcene as a cancer potentiator are far, far above the exposure that even a heavy lifetime user of cannabis oil would experience. I am not worried about any negative impacts from myrcene whatsoever (except sleep!).

Myrcene is the most abundant and common terpene found in cannabis, regardless of plant chemotype (i.e. I-V). Other minor terpenes do correspond with chemotype, but I'd caution against using them as a predictor due to their relatively low loading factors.



That's one of the problems with using PCA for analytical purposes...especially with very small sample sizes (as is the case for type III plants). Unless "bubble blower" is the IC handle for Jeffrey Raber, I would question your access to data like we have. When you run 50k plants at a time, you tend to find different trends than are publicly available. I don't need a pissing contest BTW, this was a thread about Therapy. If you'd like terpene results from Therapy, I suggest you grow it out and test it yourself. This thread is about the CBD/THC ratio present in the Therapy population.

[Bubbleblower]

Originally Posted by socioecologist

When you run 50k plants at a time, you tend to find different trends than are publicly available.

How exactly if you only analyse 9 of them at a time?

Companies like Bedrocan and Tikkun Olam have developed several dozens of type III plants, so the sample sizes used are much bigger than you assume.
Even small sample sizes can teach you interesting things already, like THCA plants produce more terpenes and CBDA plants more alcohols as your picture shows.

[socioecologist]

Cute dude, thanks for utterly derailing the point of this thread. If you read, you'd know that we ran Therapy seeds because we'd received a previous seed batch that didn't match advertising copy (MedGom) and got Therapy as a "consolation". We checked out that advertising copy and were stoked to run it. Results didn't match the copy. We complained. We got another batch, ran those, tested them, and reported again. Got told by Shanti that "only a few people have reported these types of results"--yea, because only a handful actually test their plants. Every grower I've seen reporting results who actually had them tested ended up with what we did: 50% 20:1 plus and 50% 1:1. If you understand genetic inheritance, you'll understand where they went wrong. Major screw up for sure! Sucks, because the 20:1s are nice plants. Shanti personally vouched for the seed, saying that over 50,000 seeds have been sold and only a handful have reported bad results...do the math on that one to see why they are hesitant to pull this variety.

As you correctly state, small n samples are fine when trying to characterize certain traits within populations (particularly F1s).

Bedrocan and Tikum Olam had better hustle if they are going to catch up with our work. We're releasing the largest type III catalog in the world to the public with no strings attached in 2017, including some novel developments that will make cannabinoid rich hemp production possible in more of the world than ever before. If you like type III, you'll love type IV and V. Look me up. Try google. Feel free to come visit our farm. You sound knowledgable as hell, but it feels tied to a computer screen and not connected to real world production. I'd be happy to give you a tour.

The legalization of cannabis production (particularly industrial hemp) has created some interesting boundaries; those who still seek to serve the public's interest, and those who seek to merely capitalize on an opportunity. Let those who horde the fruits of their research be overwhelmed by a tidal wave of small growers armed with even better genetics. This is a battle for the sociocultural definition of "cannabis cultivation". Our goal is to empower small farmers in the face of oligopolic competition from multinational, nationally-protected corporations that seek to monopolize the emerging legal cannabis market.

[bigbadbiddy]

I think what people fail to realize is that CBD Crew is a collaboration WITH Mr. Nice i.e. Shanti, it is not run BY Mr. Nice/Shanti.

The most obvious telltale sign to me was that they went with feminized seeds.

That is something that was most definitely not Shanti's idea but he is not the captain of that ship and I would assume that it wasn't a deal breaker to him as the project was too interesting or something of the sort.

Anyway, just as going feminized was likely not a "Shanti move", I assume that the way they went about advertising at CBD Crew wasn't either.

I visited the CBD Crew website several times and I wholeheartedly agree with socioecologist:
It was obviously advertised as "High CBD ratio in every bean for the first time ever".
The fact that it doesn't fulfill this promise makes that false advertising.

The way I know Shanti and MNS, I find it hard to believe that they were on board with the decision to advertise in this manner but likely did not have the ultimate decision making power in this.


You can call me a fanboy and disciple or whatever but I am just sharing with you guys how I view the whole situation.

In my world these test results mainly tarnish the reputation of CBD Crew, not Shanti and MNS.

As Shanti and MNS are collaborating with CBD Crew, I think this also tarnishes their own reputation but in a much less severe manner.

In my world it would all be fine, if the Therapy was advertised differently and it was openly communicated that you will find A 20:1 plant in a batch of 10 seeds guaranteed not that EVERY plant will be like that.
And I like to think that the decision to advertise in this way was a CBD Crew decision, not a Shanti one.

While Shanti is considered a legendary breeder with great reputation, the rest of CBD Crew is not. Afaik they are a bunch of unknowns and as such, it doesn't surprise me that some of their decisions are simply poor and influenced by what is common practice in the rest of the seed business.