[Pangea]

Thought I'd start a discussion on the topic of the title.

There are a few companies out there with cannabis based terpene isolations. So how do they do it and whats the best way?

To start, this is theory, I have not done this yet, but its pretty simple in basics.

The goal is to capture the same full aroma that we experience when a flower is fresh or properly dried/cured.

Traditional methods such as steam distillation will not produce a product that is representative of what we are after, heat and oxygen alters the aroma.

So if we cant heat the material at all we have to cold distill the essential oil/terpenes. In order to do this we must distill under vacuum.

No problem everyones got a vac pump and chamber now a days.

Basic steps:

Expressing trichomes. The terps are bound up in the trichomes, in order to effectively capture them we must express them, as soon as we do this they are volatizing very quickly. If we are to express the material in cold distilled water we minimize volatility while expressing it to a good carrier liquid from which to cold boil with.

Nitrogen back fill and sweep. Once we've expressed our material into h2o we place the mixture into your vac chamber/distillation unit, back fill with nitrogen gas and use it as a sweeping gas or what ever you prefer to call it, point is no oxygen, once we gas the terps they will easily oxidize and alter their original aroma.

Cold trap it. Vac distill as cold as possible to minimize heat alteration, and collect into an appropriate cold trap. Make sure you're not vacuuming out any goodness and its all getting caught in the cold trap.

Collect cold trap condensate and separate h2o from essential oil in a separatory funnel or similar.

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Its very similar to what the Gin Distillers figured out a decade or so ago, google cold distilled gin botanical infusion and Oxly Gin, there was a NY Times article about it focusing on Alcohol and Food science, one chef cold distilled a few pounds of forest soil to infuse into food.

https://www.ginfoundry.com/gin/oxley-gin/

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/dining/02curious.html

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I based this off of a few pretty big hints Tony V of Blue River dropped at various times. Hes stated all he uses is nitrogen gas and distilled water.

Its simple, but did you expect it to be other wise? Lots of tweaking available to refine though. Big key would be not wasting the cannabinoids left behind.

Lets assume a 2.5% return from 500g is 12.5g, @ $200/gram is $2500/500g.

I would have tested it but Im broke af and cant build an effective cold trap for a bit so thought Id share anyway.

All thoughts welcome please.

[live resin]

Fractionate the stuff collected in your vac oven cold trap

Though I really hope that cold distilling using a freeze dryer and LN2 cold trap will somehow work as well

[myrtyl]

I'm digging this thread. I'm working with someone who has been getting a fraction that smells absolutely awful and we are thinking it is phenols or maybe something else. Would this be from not using Nitrogen causing the compounds to oxidizing into something different?

[thegreenman91]

Originally Posted by live resin

Fractionate the stuff collected in your vac oven cold trap

Though I really hope that cold distilling using a freeze dryer and LN2 cold trap will somehow work as well

That still wouldn't be a complete profile, wouldn't smell JUST like the plant. Although that is something you could do.

[thegreenman91]

Hey phenome... Do you know if the blue river guys are runnin co2. Could it be a fractionated co2 run that is being used as starting material as opposed as expressed trichomes from raw plant matter?

What sort of vacuum levels are needed for "cold" distillation. And how cold are we talking here.

And how essential is a nitrogen backfill on this process?

[Pangea]

Tony Terp on reddit:

I am Tony Verzura the guy who actually invented the process, and owns the patents on the use of the terpene extraction. I also started Blue River Extracts. Everything we do is 100% Solvent Free and THC-Free. I will be posting all the test results on the website. I think its a dam shame you are also making claims about the product that is flat out false. We do not use hexane or any solvents at all. I just won the Emerald Cup using my process for both the cannabinoid extract and terpene extract everything tested without any solvents, pesticides, or mold. It is a modified vapor vac distillation system I created that only runs off distilled water and nitrogen under pressure i.e. nitrogen + water = vapor that is all I use. Furthermore, we would not be shipping it if it had any cannabinoids. Brado_potato would love to see what lab you used, the results of the claim, and what product of ours you actually tested. I have been in the cannabis industry since 96' and have won over 30 awards without ever using a solvent. So your statement is false. I use this process in my other products called Prana Bio Nutrient Medicinals and EVERYTHING from the flowers, batches, and final products are tested for cannabinoids, solvents, pesticides, and mold. Follow me @tverzura for more info if you want to learn about the process, testing, and more.

Prana about:

The extraction methods captures pure plant profiles derived by utilizing a proprietary plant fat extraction method, pressure, and pharmaceutical filtration systems.

Read the bolds a few times.

How cold? Who knows, cold enough not to cause any degradation, im shooting for 20oC to start. You want to at least be able to boil water at the temp you are shooting for, everything that we are aiming to boil is lighter than water.

Nitrogens importance, no idea, all I know is I dont want anything exposed to oxygen so when I am expressing I want to flush out and fill with nitrogen. Maybe Tony's bubbling with it as well, not sure what all the possibilities could be?

The best way I can figure to express any aromatic in a controlled manner, is in a ball mill jar that has a two valve ports, one for a vac line the other for gas flushing.

The cold trap better be 99+% efficient as well.

[Rickys bong]

So if Tony owns the patents to some process, why doesn't his name show up in any US issued patent, or any patent applications?
I did find a news release saying that they had filed an application for "unique combinations of pharmaceutically active cannabinoids"

Filing an application is completely different from having an issued patent and it sounds like they applied for something other than a process...

He may have applied for something recently that hasn't been published by the USPTO yet, but my BS meter is leaning way to the right.

[thegreenman91]

It doesn't appear that he is doing anything aside from a simple steam distillation, under vacuum, at the lowest possible temperatures, with a FREEZING cold trap and deep enough vacuum to get distillation going at below room temperature. Probably using a fancy vacuum controller to allow precise control of the nitrogen backfill and hold the vacuum level precisely.

Does anybody think it might be any more complicated than this.

[Pangea]

I think you've got it, though I wouldnt call it steam distillation, for accuracy I would call it vacuum or cold distillation.

Here is another relevant link from a chef and his experience with concentrating difficult aromas:
https://www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=78.html

Precise vacuum level would be key.

I cant say if this is what Blue River is doing, but if related to their Prana line process, it would be important to note that they are infusing their oil in carboxylated form, meaning its likely a cold press infusion of some sort, which would also require a expression technique to expose all cannabs to the fatty oil. A ball type mill could accomplish the needs without completely homogenizing or shredding your herb.

Alternate thoughts, just using a blender blade/homogenizer w/ vac and gas port lid. Or in a reg rotary flask add some water, herb and something to mill the herb without compromising the flask, bash the herb around for a long time before starting the distillation, purge o2 first.

I didnt pay any attention to the patent reference he made. We'll see how that plays out, either way the links Ive posted shows prior art with vac distilling for aromas, not sure how specific or unspecific his potential patents are or how well they'd hold up.

I dont respect them though, Prana or Blue River, when you are criticizing and condemning other extractors out there for selling their products for extreme prices, while at the same time selling infused edible capsules for over $200/g THC, it is the definition of hypocrisy and unscrupulous behavior. Prana Pricing Guide

[Roji]

There is heat involved in making tony terps. His terps all have a note that I've only experienced under certain parameters during my own r&d.