[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Pangea

As for the safety and purity and utility of the crystals themselves. I`m not so sure I completely understand the criticisms of Chimera's, as its seemed not at all with the production/mfg safety, but with the results themselves.

This is not pharmaceutical formulating or compounding. This is a method of purification, which will allow for proper and more more precise formulating, compounding and experimenting.

The fact that my crystals have not yet tested for 99+% is also incidental. The nature of crystallization and recrystallization will result in extremely pure compounds and that is the point.
Before this method was utilized the only people selling or forming 99+% pure THCA was analysis standard companies, and they charge $100,000 per gram, now its $100/gram in California.

THCA is safe, THC is safe. People eat and smoke impure THC products all the time. Its one thing to suggest people take caution and warn against selling an untested or un-analysed product(which no one selling large thca crystals is(myself or guild/calilabs(they test)), as all products should be analysed and labeled properly if sold commercially.

Its an entirely different matter to suggest that because the level of purification of THCA is now at such a high level that it should be kept out of the "basement" and only be researched in a scientifically regulated and bureaucratic controlled environment. Pehaps I am not understanding Chimera's statements, perhaps Chimera doesnt fully understand the science and nature of crystallization itself?

Its sometimes difficult to fully explain ones position through web chat, so I hope Chimera can take a moment and write out specifically what are his concerns and views, because after giving it some thought and a sleep, from what Ive heard you are way off base. The line you've drawn is wrong, and I hope to hear your justification of why and where you've drawn it.

Pangea, at first I didn't put together your name an username here, I put it together about half way through our discussion. You aren't the only person on IC claiming such purity without having a proper analysis, so this wasn't a personal rant about you, I was simply offering my opinion which goes beyond you to all who are doing the same.

Sure, making THCA crystals is 'cool' and 'neat' as far as experiments go, but I question both the need to do so and the safety of not only the process, but the end result in terms of purity.

I don't think there is any debate that leaving jars of slowly evaporating butane around the house or your shop is a potential recipe for disaster. It definitely falls well, well outside the range of "safe laboratory practices". This type of extraction needs to be done in a suitably rated sparkless fume hood, that is what I meant in saying this type of extraction should fall under regulation; you can see all over the world, people are blowing themselves up making cannabis extracts because they are following unsafe protocols in unsafe environments.

The second half of the argument is the one of purity, you say yourself that the crystals are 96% total cannabinoids, and 94+% THCA (your claims - I've never seen the lab report). So what makes up the other 4% of your "medicine"? You don't know, but you assume that its pure enough and safe enough to put in another users hands? That's irresponsible.


You have claimed to me in private : "We've had them analysed at XX labs in XXXXXX to confirm their identity and purity. If you are interested in checking them out, I would be happy to share a small sample of them with you?"

It's unethical, in my opinion, to be putting products in the hands of other users when you don't know what is in the product, or without warning them of the lack of purity. You have no idea what other molecules could have been created during your process, nor do you know the pharmacological properties of any of those impurities. This is straight up "bro science", and to be perfectly honest I'm shocked and amazed that it is you that is putting this out there, I had a lot more respect for you and thought you would be more consistent and responsible in your experiments and teachings, than to offer out compounds with unreported purities to others in the community.

~
Here is where I am coming from. I used to work in a Parkinson's disease research lab, and we used this chemical called MPTP. We would inject mice with MPTP, and the mice would get Parkinson-like symptoms. As part of trying to figure out the molecular underpinnings of the progression of the disease, we would try various interventions to see if we could slow or stop the progression of the disease symptoms, this is how drug research is done. So where did MPTP come from and how did we discover it?

In the 70's and 80's, tragically a few people tried to synthisize an opioid analog called Desmethylprodine. Instead, due to faults in their process, they ended up with an impurity called MPTP, or (1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine), which it turns out degrades into a very potent neurotoxin called MPP+ that selectively destroys dopamine producing neurons in a brain region called the substantia nigra. These poor, unknowing, ignorant fools took the faulty synthesized opioid drug cocktail, and within 3 days developed Parkinson's like symptoms. Their tragedy was the Parkinson's disease researcher's luck, in that we now have a very accurate and effective mouse model for Parkinson's research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP

These are the types of reasons why activities such as these need to be highly regulated in society, to protect the consumers from the compounds, but also to protect the ignorant, unqualified "extraction artists" that will attempts to make these extractions under unsafe conditions. The fact that we celebratize these "extraction artists", and put faith in them as some type of shamanic-hero simply blows me away. So someone made a crystal; it doesn't make them a medicine man. You haven't even yet produced a crystal of known purity, so how can you be ok in sending private communications saying you have THCA of known identity and purity? That's a pretty big stretch, and having met you albeit years ago, I know that you should know better.

You can try to couch this whole discussion as somehow "Chimera doesnt fully understand the science and nature of crystallization itself", but we both know that that's a complete red-herring of an argument to the very valid points I was making earlier and again repeated above.

On top of the valid discussion on the inherent risks of your process,
the fact remains that compounds produced through chemistry (yes, this bro science qualifies as chemistry) should be fully characterized and analyzed by a validated laboratory for their full chemical complement before being provided to other people to consume as "medicine". Sure, your "lab test" got a high number to flash in front on the masses as some mistaken form of credibility, but from a product safety standpoint your lab results only demonstrate the inadequacies of such testing- vis a vis you don't know what is in the unidentified fraction of the sample.

Originally Posted by Pangea

The fact that my crystals have not yet tested for 99+% is also incidental.

Incidental? That's just more bro science. There's a difference between "THCA is safe", and "this crystal I have in my hand that is 96% THCA, is safe", when you don't know what's in the unidentified 4%, you have no idea whether it's safe or not, and that's a pretty big assumption to be playing with someone else's health.


On the "formulating" discussion, that you need 99% pure compounds for formulation is a complete fallacy. You can accurately formulate mixtures with oils and concentrates of any known analyzed quantities with a few calculations.

-Chimera

[Pangea]

I appreciate you responding.

Sure, making THCA crystals is 'cool' and 'neat' as far as experiments go, but I question both the need to do so and the safety of not only the process, but the end result in terms of purity.

Do you also ask the same questions for every other cannabis based extract?

I don't think there is any debate that leaving jars of slowly evaporating butane around the house or your shop is a potential recipe for disaster. It definitely falls well, well outside the range of "safe laboratory practices". This type of extraction needs to be done in a suitably rated sparkless fume hood, that is what I meant in saying this type of extraction should fall under regulation; you can see all over the world, people are blowing themselves up making cannabis extracts because they are following unsafe protocols in unsafe environments.

Ive always advocated safety and following regs with handling and processing with solvents. Please note as ive mentioned several times, it is not butane that is evaporating to form the crystals it is the terpene content. This area we see eye to eye on. As it actually has weight to the concern.

The second half of the argument is the one of purity, you say yourself that the crystals are 96% total cannabinoids, and 94+% THCA (your claims - I've never seen the lab report). So what makes up the other 4% of your "medicine"? You don't know, but you assume that its pure enough and safe enough to put in another users hands? That's irresponsible.

The fact you haven't seen the lab report is telling to how much you've actually paid attention to what Ive posted and shared. The other 4% of my medicine as ive stated is mother liquor contamination. So what is in the liquor mother contaminate? The uncrystallized portion of the extract, which is the same contaminant in every similarly made cannabis extract; cannabinoids, terpenes, lipids/wax.'s, butane. Show me any single analysis ever produced for a whole cannabis extract and show me the results of and identity of each compound adding up to 100% what ever is not cannabinoids is what makes up my remaining 4% So my contam is the same as any other whole cannabis extract out there except in a much less quanitiy vs active medicine.

You have claimed to me in private : "We've had them analysed at XX labs in XXXXXX to confirm their identity and purity. If you are interested in checking them out, I would be happy to share a small sample of them with you?"

It's unethical, in my opinion, to be putting products in the hands of other users when you don't know what is in the product, or without warning them of the lack of purity. You have no idea what other molecules could have been created during your process, nor do you know the pharmacological properties of any of those impurities. This is straight up "bro science", and to be perfectly honest I'm shocked and amazed that it is you that is putting this out there, I had a lot more respect for you and thought you would be more consistent and responsible in your experiments and teachings, than to offer out compounds with unreported purities to others in the community.

Yep I offered you to check them out, I know you have laboratory equipment and chemistry knowledge as well as a general interest in cannabis science. Those ive proffered them to I do so as something to visually admire rather than consuming, but have 0 qualms if they are.
That as well as the fact I do know what is in the product, and I do know the pharmcological properties at least as well as everyone else using and providing cannabis to others. There are no other molecules being created during "my" process, again you really need to take a moment a read what ive shared and then open up wikipeida and read all the related links and content in the crystallization section.
Your statement of shock that im offering these to friends in the community because of unreported impurities is factually wrong and logically not sound. The lab report has been shared openly and linked to often, might not be in this thread I think there is three on icmag where ive discussed this, its for sure in two of them and always include it when sharing as its part of the image album. Ive also always said the purity is 96% cannabinoids, not 100%, the unreported impurities are reported as unknown, just like 99% of every concentrate analysis does not identify nor add up 100% of the compounds present.

These are the types of reasons why activities such as these need to be highly regulated in society, to protect the consumers from the compounds, but also to protect the ignorant, unqualified "extraction artists" that will attempts to make these extractions under unsafe conditions. The fact that we celebratize these "extraction artists", and put faith in them as some type of shamanic-hero simply blows me away. So someone made a crystal; it doesn't make them a medicine man. You haven't even yet produced a crystal of known purity, so how can you be ok in sending private communications saying you have THCA of known identity and purity? That's a pretty big stretch, and having met you albeit years ago, I know that you should know better.

You can try to couch this whole discussion as somehow "Chimera doesnt fully understand the science and nature of crystallization itself", but we both know that that's a complete red-herring of an argument to the very valid points I was making earlier and again repeated above.

On top of the valid discussion on the inherent risks of your process,
the fact remains that compounds produced through chemistry (yes, this bro science qualifies as chemistry) should be fully characterized and analyzed by a validated laboratory for their full chemical complement before being provided to other people to consume as "medicine". Sure, your "lab test" got a high number to flash in front on the masses as some mistaken form of credibility, but from a product safety standpoint your lab results only demonstrate the inadequacies of such testing- vis a vis you don't know what is in the unidentified fraction of the sample.

The crystal i have produced are of a known purity and identity as are the Guild Extracts crystals, not sure why you said that bold part, look at the lab reports, thats why Ive offered a select few others a chance to check them out, because Ive had them tested I wouldnt other wise.

I do and will try and couch this whole discussion as that you dont fully understand whats going on.

I also never stated that in order to formulate a medicine it needs to be pure, I said it will allow for proper and more more precise formulating, compounding and experimenting. Gotta read carefully.

Red Herring, just like I mentioned about the UN treaty hoopla was to you in chuch chat a few weeks back, except in this case its not a red herring at all. Your valid points are not valid, because your points are being made from a uninformed incorrect position. Youve stated my crystals are of unknown purity, that is not true. Youve stated that I do not know what the remaining 4% contamination is, that is also wrong, it's the contents of the mother liquor, which is of known and un altered constituents. Your concern of what other molecules could have been formed and what the pharmcalogical effect of other impurities is ironic, as that is what this is preventing. Your missing the forest for the weak seedling(this simple discovery)
Lab verified 99.69%THCA crytals are being formed with this same exact process and are the only crystals being sold or offered to patients at least that are being formed with this method. Like I said the fact that mine did not test at 99+% is incidental to the concerns, as A)the process to produce my tested crystals is half of the process, they are seed crystals, recrystallization will form 99+%, and Id wager many seeds will if cleaned properly as well. B) my impure crystals are not for sale and not being provided to any patient as medicine. The unknown pharmacological effects and possible newly and dangerous formed compounds are of no concern if you purify your substance to 99+% and forming large crystals is the best way to do accomplish that. Besides there are no molecules that could be created during this process that would not also be created in every other cannabis extract.

Youve never handed a patient a joint or a bud of 22% THCA content without having had the other 88% identified and each tested for pharmacological effects?

You've stated a lot about responsibility and respect and care with the community in mind. This site has many medical growers and providers. You are considered a leader and trusted voice to many.
If we are talking about sharing information and ensuring safety and sound science for the community, you've surely also conducted or have extensive documentation/analysis relating to the indoor half life degradation and residual effects down to the PPB and possible associated effects of inhaled Meltatox before you suggested its use on a public forum where many folks are not not licensed or educated properly to use and understand the risk of use with such chemicals, which literally could cause extremely serious problems including death in the extreme.

Allowing THCA to form into large crystals and sharing how to do that leaves me with no more sense of cause for potential harm or wrong doing than I would for providing the info to others on how to properly and safely make a bho based decarbed whole plant extract.

Your reasons and points must be more scientific based and sound if they are to be considered. Focus on the process and method itself, remember only guilds 99.69% verified are being sold and use the exact method Ive shared.

-Pangea

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Pangea

I appreciate you responding.
Do you also ask the same questions for every other cannabis based extract?

I pretty much always ask for lab results these days; there is enough lab tested, safe medicine to consume in my world, so consuming untested products in a world of pesticide/residual solvent laced medicine is something I try to avoid at all costs. I do admit freely I am most questioning of those things that claim a specific purity, it's nothing personal at all; it's a completely fair follow up to "my shit is XX purity" - to question how such purity was assessed.

What is in the medicine is not an evil question, and producers shouldn't feel attacked or ego bruised if someone asks for a purity analysis or a residual solvent analysis in regards to their purity claims. I'm not a lab rat or guinea pig, and don't want to consume anybody's untested products for them, especially those products with unidentified fractions, so I simply chose to avoid them.

Originally Posted by Pangea

The fact you haven't seen the lab report is telling to how much you've actually paid attention to what Ive posted and shared.

No I don't follow you on IG, or facebook, or ICmag if that is what you are stating, but the results were not so obvious or ubiquitous that I came across them. I looked in your albums on IC and didn't see the lab report; however if you can direct me to where it's posted I will gladly look it over.

Originally Posted by Pangea

The other 4% of my medicine as ive stated is mother liquor contamination.

Is this an assumption on your part, or is this the result of a lab assay? Seems to me you don't have the information to make that claim, perhaps I am wrong? I would love to see the assay showing the contamination to be residual terpenes, or waxes, residual solvent, etc. These things are all easily identified by a qualified lab.

Originally Posted by Pangea

So what is in the liquor mother contaminate? The uncrystallized portion of the extract, which is the same contaminant in every similarly made cannabis extract; cannabinoids, terpenes, lipids/wax.'s, butane. Show me any single analysis ever produced for a whole cannabis extract and show me the results of and identity of each compound adding up to 100% what ever is not cannabinoids is what makes up my remaining 4% So my contam is the same as any other whole cannabis extract out there except in a much less quanitiy vs active medicine.

Again, you assume? Unless you have a lab result stating such to be the case?

Originally Posted by Pangea

Yep I offered you to check them out, I know you have laboratory equipment and chemistry knowledge as well as a general interest in cannabis science. Those ive proffered them to I do so as something to visually admire rather than consuming, but have 0 qualms if they are.
That as well as the fact I do know what is in the product, and I do know the pharmcological properties at least as well as everyone else using and providing cannabis to others. There are no other molecules being created during "my" process, again you really need to take a moment a read what ive shared and then open up wikipeida and read all the related links and content in the crystallization section.
Your statement of shock that im offering these to friends in the community because of unreported impurities is factually wrong and logically not sound. The lab report has been shared openly and linked to often, might not be in this thread I think there is three on icmag where ive discussed this, its for sure in two of them and always include it when sharing as its part of the image album. Ive also always said the purity is 96% cannabinoids, not 100%, the unreported impurities are reported as unknown, just like 99% of every concentrate analysis does not identify nor add up 100% of the compounds present.

That's incorrect Pangea some labs do offer full profiling of extracts, and a good chemist with an MS will go through and identify unknown peaks in a concentrate that claims to be of such high purity to determine the source of the contamination. They do this because they care what is in the product they are putting in the patients hands. In some locales, it's mandated by local regulations.

What you offered to me was THCA crystals, nowhere did you state that they were only 96% cannabinoids. In fact nowhere did you say they were anything but THCA.

Originally Posted by Pangea

The crystal i have produced are of a known purity and identity as are the Guild Extracts crystals, not sure why you said that bold part, look at the lab reports, thats why Ive offered a select few others a chance to check them out, because Ive had them tested I wouldnt other wise.

Perhaps it was my mistake in reading what you write to me in private, but the way it was written did seem to suggest that you had isolated THCA alone. The panel also seemed surprised when it was revealed that your isolate was not pure, after I asked if you had the crystals tested at a lab.

Originally Posted by Pangea

I do and will try and couch this whole discussion as that you dont fully understand whats going on.

I also never stated that in order to formulate a medicine it needs to be pure, I said it will allow for proper and more more precise formulating, compounding and experimenting. Gotta read carefully.

Precise and proper formulations do not require pure compounds, that's just more bro science. All you need is properly characterized starting compounds or oils, and from there you do the math and formulate accordingly. It's a shame you feel the need to couch the discussion in any given context, rather than just let the conversation unfold. I believe I have a pretty good understanding though of the science involved, probably better than most.

Originally Posted by Pangea

Youve stated that I do not know what the remaining 4% contamination is, that is also wrong, it's the contents of the mother liquor, which is of known and un altered constituents.

That's great. Can I please see the lab report stating such as fact, or is this simply more assumption on your part?

Originally Posted by Pangea

Youve never handed a patient a joint or a bud of 22% THCA content without having had the other 88% identified and each tested for pharmacological effects?

My, you sure like herring. Cannabis is a known mixture of compounds, and is known to contain other substances other than simply cannabinoids. It's plant matter, clearly other compounds are present. This isn't a revelation to anyone, and I have never handed flowers to anyone and claimed they were pure compounds. Anything I have ever handed to anyone with a claimed high-purity, you can be damned sure I explained how it was determined to be as the level of purity I was claiming. Maybe working in a lab for so long has me in a different mindset than most, but that's just how I operate these days. Either way, it's very different from handing someone some crystals and saying it's THCA, when really the crystals are only 94% THCA with an unknown, uncharacterized fraction.

Originally Posted by Pangea

You've stated a lot about responsibility and respect and care with the community in mind. This site has many medical growers and providers. You are considered a leader and trusted voice to many.
If we are talking about sharing information and ensuring safety and sound science for the community, you've surely also conducted or have extensive documentation/analysis relating to the indoor half life degradation and residual effects down to the PPB and possible associated effects of inhaled Meltatox before you suggested its use on a public forum where many folks are not not licensed or educated properly to use and understand the risk of use with such chemicals, which literally could cause extremely serious problems including death in the extreme.

Tit for tat from a bruised ego, or Red Herring? Any time I have ever mentioned using chemicals that are unsafe for human consumption, there has always been fair warning on how to minimize the exposure and a strict, clear warning to only use these chemicals when needed on mother plants, and to avoid using them on flowering plants. Is there a reason that helps your argument as to why you are bringing up pesticides in a discussion of pure isolated compounds? Or is this just a distraction?

Originally Posted by Pangea

Allowing THCA to form into large crystals and sharing how to do that leaves me with no more sense of cause for potential harm or wrong doing than I would for providing the info to others on how to properly and safely make a bho based decarbed whole plant extract.

I have no problem with you sharing info, it's a shame that was your take home message from our discussion.

Originally Posted by Pangea

Your reasons and points must be more scientific based and sound if they are to be considered. Focus on the process and method itself, remember only guilds 99.69% verified are being sold and use the exact method Ive shared.

It's pretty easy to say 'my stuff is done using the same process as these guys, and their results are such and such'. That's totally bogus rationale though in my world, and any chemist worth their salt would acknowledge that the results and purity are alone dictated by their lab results. Anything else is speculation and assumption.

I think we should keep in context that I never searched you out trying to smear your results, process or reputation. This simply came up in a conversation to which I was a party, and I offered my opinion on the matter during the discussion. You can get all nut-chafed about it if you like, but it was never intended as a shot at you personally or your ego, and it's a shame that you took it personally rather than on face value.

It's easy to say "this can be further refined to 99% purity". I say do it, get the results and show it can be done, and at the same time have the lab identify the unknown peaks that make up the contaminate in your sample so we don't have to rely on your assumptions of what they are. Turning around and saying 'well the lab didn't rinse off the contamination in my sample before running it' just doesn't cut the mustard, and labs running the sample that you provide them is standard operating procedure for any lab worth their salt. You wouldn't want them altering your sample- the whole point of providing a sample for analysis is that they tell you what is in the sample you gave them.

[thegreenman91]

Originally Posted by live resin

I don't think Guild Extracts uses this procedure for their 99.96% THCa.
Besides being uneconomical at large scales, I-502 would not allow this procedure unless it was done in a fume hood, which would be a major bottleneck in production.

I think you are correct.

[live resin]

Pangea, if those crystals are not 99% already try washing in pentane and methanol, that should get you to 99%.

I would love to see a scaled up version of this process that could net at least 100/g of crystals ever day

[Pangea]

What you offered to me was THCA crystals, nowhere did you state that they were only 96% cannabinoids. In fact nowhere did you say they were anything but THCA.

..

...in doing so we discovered how to form larger THCA crystals out of a solution. Not sure if you've seen any of my posts on the subject in the concentrate forum or not, but its pretty interesting I thought. We've had them analysed at MB labs in Sydney to confirm their identity and purity.

If you are interested in checking them out, I would be happy to share a small sample of them with you?

Thats what I wrote you im PM about it. Nothing more or less.


This is not about my ego or "butt hurt" reputation. Im insulted because you are missing the point.

You can be all offended I offered you and a couple friends samples of my impure crystals and focus on my lack of scientific rigor, fine thats all good, the 4% is technically unknown because a lab didnt identify the residual oil on the crystal surface area, you are correct.


I specifically spoke to the president of the laboratory stating I have an unknown sample and would like them to conduct exploratory and extensive analysis on the sample, they agreed at the time, but once the samples where actually received the head lab tech had disagreements with the arrangements as it went outside of standard protocol, understandable, but unfortunate, Its not an excuse, but an explanation.

My assumptions of the remaining 4% are just that assumptions, but those assumptions are not based on good thoughts or well wishes. Its based on logic and understanding of the chemistry happening. You didnt read the wiki entries did you?

Your focus on me and my lack of scientific rigor instead of the information of method, not results is the insulting part, and thats an insult not to me, but to the discussion in general. You are not adding to the discussion other than with your overly cautious warnings and fear.

Do you honestly believe its possible there are compounds other than what Ive stated present in the mothers liqour or crystals themselves or in other concentrated extracts? As in some newly formed molecule from an unknow reaction of unknown effect?

Forming THCA seed crystals out of a whole plant concentrate and then properly re-crystallizing them will result in pure THCA crystals. Do you disagree?

Your warnings of safety and of proper care with the use of meltatox are similar to my warnings of the use of cannabis extracts and crytallization, except there are no toxic ingredients with what im sharing. Whats the half life under HPS/MH of meltatox, you dont know, vegged plants and mother plants may very well be contaminated as they continue on their life cycle and end up in the patients hands, and then what are the risks when inhaled. The point of brining it up is to show how you like to pick and chose when to draw the line of only accepting scientific data when it comes to the public safety of the community, a community comprised primarily of folks not legally allowed to use a product you promote, that you know based on your post many will still obtain and use without license and rigor and despite your warning and intentions will use it outside of recommended parameters, thats not on you, thats on them youve provided the warnings. But the consequences of sharing that information is important, the good youve done by sharing that does not outweight the risk potential, where imo my information risk potential is much less than that. Trying to put it into real world risks and danger contexts especially when you try to guilt or shame me by saying I should know better for sharing this info inferring its close to or unethical you can bet I will compare it to actual unethical sharing of potentially risky behavior, sure they are not directly related but we are talking about impurities and their potential risk and unknown or unconducted research. Not a herring but more an attempt at kettle and pot calling each other black, type comparison

My, you sure like herring. Cannabis is a known mixture of compounds, and is known to contain other substances other than simply cannabinoids. It's plant matter, clearly other compounds are present. This isn't a revelation to anyone,

Exactly my point not a revelation to anyone, just like the mother liqour contents is the same thing every bho smoker understands is in their concentrate, the same non cannabinoid soluble compounds, terps, waxs,lipds, and solvent perhaps.

Focus on the method itself and not me, im human and make many mistakes.
The method of slow evaporation to form large pure crystals from seed and recrystallized solution is sound and all results should be verified by an accredited lab before sold to the public.

Precise and proper formulations do not require pure compounds, that's just more bro science. All you need is properly characterized starting compounds or oils, and from there you do the math and formulate accordingly. It's a shame you feel the need to couch the discussion in any given context, rather than just let the conversation unfold. I believe I have a pretty good understanding though of the science involved, probably better than most.

Again I did not state that in order to formulate a medicine it needs to be pure, I said it will allow for proper and moreprecise formulating, compounding and experimenting. Gotta read carefully, compounding and expreimenting and formulating benefit from having purer substance, but no where did I say its required.

Again you can nit pick that my results are incomplete or improper and be all offended I offered to share them impure or was not fully forthcoming with their purity, great, I can accept I could have done better in disclosure, but I couldnt afford further analysis and still cannot, so share as best as I can with what information I do have access to, what should I have done different, should I have not shared my results and methods until I personally achieved 99+% ?

Are you sure your not butt hurt about the "celebrated extraction" artist and so called "hailed shamanic heros" in general? What do you call a person healing or treating others with plant compounds, how many modern day cannabis shamans have hurt their patients vs traditinal pharmaceuticals doled out by scientists? Ive made a crystal with many medical and health promoting effect and benefits, perhaps it does make me a medicine man!? I wasnt aware of there are specific requirements. Many people took exception and offence to your assertions and potential line drawing of what and when people have the freedom to produce and share as plant based medicines. I dont take it as a shot to my ego, more so as a shot and affront to personal freedoms in general, and again the focus not being on the method but nit picking on the details that really arent relevant(Im not selling them or offering them as medicine)

I asked you what specifically your concerns and views are and your response was weak, you questioned the need to purify and questioned the end purity and analysis results, missing the bigger picture and focused on my ethical blunders and rant about the dangers of not studying compounds in a traditional lab settings by trained pro's, with an example of exactly why we all prefer cannabis and cannabis compounds, cause we know some fucking doctor or scientist didnt fuck up and end up harming us with shitty medicine.

My responses can come across amped up and emotionally charged, but thats more so to do with smoking to much sweet skunk in the morning or late late at night and being bored, rather than butt hurt or ego hurt. Your literally the only voice of dissent on this subject and matter and Im always interest in discussing such things and there has been a lack of that on this subject so far, so often will repeat myself or write long windily or disjointedly.

My totally bogus rational is based 4% in assumption and speculation, 96% on verified crystal content. Im not a chemist and never claimed to be a scientist. Im a farmer who made a discovery and is sharing it openly because I believe it is safe.

Focus on Slow Evaporation to form large crystals. Thats what this is about, do you have anything to say about chemistry or physics involved in crystal forming? Do you have any logic with your concerns of dangerous contamination via creation of unknown compounds during the crystallization process. Or a specific reason other than lack of proper fume hoods as to why a shamanic extractor should not allow THCA to crystallize out of a concentrated whole plant extract solution?

Forest for the weak seedling of a discovery. We now have a new, sound route of extreme purification. That was not public knowledge, now it is. $100,000/gram is now $100.

https://imgur.com/a/oFeMb

Notice the yellowness to many of the crystals, that is because I used my nitrile glove to remove the surface mother liqour contamination, not a cold solvent wash, as at the time these where my first and only crystals and I was overly caution with their handling and was concerned with dissolving them by accident rather than wash the surface area.

[Digital Man]

Seeing this Guild product being sold in San Jose for around $80-$100 per gram. 92% THCA

[LDL]

Much respect for sharing your findings pangea! I'm going to try using high cbd/thc hybrid strains to see if i can get both cbd and thc crystals to form. I'll also be using sour diesel and killer skunkberry to try to get pure thc but im really interested in the possible cbd meds i could make for my patients!

[spacepot]

Originally Posted by Pangea

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Thats what I wrote you im PM about it. Nothing more or less.


This is not about my ego or "butt hurt" reputation. Im insulted because you are missing the point.

You can be all offended I offered you and a couple friends samples of my impure crystals and focus on my lack of scientific rigor, fine thats all good, the 4% is technically unknown because a lab didnt identify the residual oil on the crystal surface area, you are correct.


I specifically spoke to the president of the laboratory stating I have an unknown sample and would like them to conduct exploratory and extensive analysis on the sample, they agreed at the time, but once the samples where actually received the head lab tech had disagreements with the arrangements as it went outside of standard protocol, understandable, but unfortunate, Its not an excuse, but an explanation.

My assumptions of the remaining 4% are just that assumptions, but those assumptions are not based on good thoughts or well wishes. Its based on logic and understanding of the chemistry happening. You didnt read the wiki entries did you?

Your focus on me and my lack of scientific rigor instead of the information of method, not results is the insulting part, and thats an insult not to me, but to the discussion in general. You are not adding to the discussion other than with your overly cautious warnings and fear.

Do you honestly believe its possible there are compounds other than what Ive stated present in the mothers liqour or crystals themselves or in other concentrated extracts? As in some newly formed molecule from an unknow reaction of unknown effect?

Forming THCA seed crystals out of a whole plant concentrate and then properly re-crystallizing them will result in pure THCA crystals. Do you disagree?

Your warnings of safety and of proper care with the use of meltatox are similar to my warnings of the use of cannabis extracts and crytallization, except there are no toxic ingredients with what im sharing. Whats the half life under HPS/MH of meltatox, you dont know, vegged plants and mother plants may very well be contaminated as they continue on their life cycle and end up in the patients hands, and then what are the risks when inhaled. The point of brining it up is to show how you like to pick and chose when to draw the line of only accepting scientific data when it comes to the public safety of the community, a community comprised primarily of folks not legally allowed to use a product you promote, that you know based on your post many will still obtain and use without license and rigor and despite your warning and intentions will use it outside of recommended parameters, thats not on you, thats on them youve provided the warnings. But the consequences of sharing that information is important, the good youve done by sharing that does not outweight the risk potential, where imo my information risk potential is much less than that. Trying to put it into real world risks and danger contexts especially when you try to guilt or shame me by saying I should know better for sharing this info inferring its close to or unethical you can bet I will compare it to actual unethical sharing of potentially risky behavior, sure they are not directly related but we are talking about impurities and their potential risk and unknown or unconducted research. Not a herring but more an attempt at kettle and pot calling each other black, type comparison

Exactly my point not a revelation to anyone, just like the mother liqour contents is the same thing every bho smoker understands is in their concentrate, the same non cannabinoid soluble compounds, terps, waxs,lipds, and solvent perhaps.

Focus on the method itself and not me, im human and make many mistakes.
The method of slow evaporation to form large pure crystals from seed and recrystallized solution is sound and all results should be verified by an accredited lab before sold to the public.


Again I did not state that in order to formulate a medicine it needs to be pure, I said it will allow for proper and moreprecise formulating, compounding and experimenting. Gotta read carefully, compounding and expreimenting and formulating benefit from having purer substance, but no where did I say its required.

Again you can nit pick that my results are incomplete or improper and be all offended I offered to share them impure or was not fully forthcoming with their purity, great, I can accept I could have done better in disclosure, but I couldnt afford further analysis and still cannot, so share as best as I can with what information I do have access to, what should I have done different, should I have not shared my results and methods until I personally achieved 99+% ?

Are you sure your not butt hurt about the "celebrated extraction" artist and so called "hailed shamanic heros" in general? What do you call a person healing or treating others with plant compounds, how many modern day cannabis shamans have hurt their patients vs traditinal pharmaceuticals doled out by scientists? Ive made a crystal with many medical and health promoting effect and benefits, perhaps it does make me a medicine man!? I wasnt aware of there are specific requirements. Many people took exception and offence to your assertions and potential line drawing of what and when people have the freedom to produce and share as plant based medicines. I dont take it as a shot to my ego, more so as a shot and affront to personal freedoms in general, and again the focus not being on the method but nit picking on the details that really arent relevant(Im not selling them or offering them as medicine)

I asked you what specifically your concerns and views are and your response was weak, you questioned the need to purify and questioned the end purity and analysis results, missing the bigger picture and focused on my ethical blunders and rant about the dangers of not studying compounds in a traditional lab settings by trained pro's, with an example of exactly why we all prefer cannabis and cannabis compounds, cause we know some fucking doctor or scientist didnt fuck up and end up harming us with shitty medicine.

My responses can come across amped up and emotionally charged, but thats more so to do with smoking to much sweet skunk in the morning or late late at night and being bored, rather than butt hurt or ego hurt. Your literally the only voice of dissent on this subject and matter and Im always interest in discussing such things and there has been a lack of that on this subject so far, so often will repeat myself or write long windily or disjointedly.

My totally bogus rational is based 4% in assumption and speculation, 96% on verified crystal content. Im not a chemist and never claimed to be a scientist. Im a farmer who made a discovery and is sharing it openly because I believe it is safe.

Focus on Slow Evaporation to form large crystals. Thats what this is about, do you have anything to say about chemistry or physics involved in crystal forming? Do you have any logic with your concerns of dangerous contamination via creation of unknown compounds during the crystallization process. Or a specific reason other than lack of proper fume hoods as to why a shamanic extractor should not allow THCA to crystallize out of a concentrated whole plant extract solution?

Forest for the weak seedling of a discovery. We now have a new, sound route of extreme purification. That was not public knowledge, now it is. $100,000/gram is now $100.

https://imgur.com/a/oFeMb

Notice the yellowness to many of the crystals, that is because I used my nitrile glove to remove the surface mother liqour contamination, not a cold solvent wash, as at the time these where my first and only crystals and I was overly caution with their handling and was concerned with dissolving them by accident rather than wash the surface area.

hi been listening and rading all i can on this, what would be a good solvent to recrystallize in once u did the initial bho process and left sitting?

[Calilabs]

How many .9s=100?