Looking for some fresh thoughts on this

Try to be as informative as possible.

Posted this in my actually journal but figured its more situated here.

These problem has been on and off for the past year or so on random plants, the pattern is never the same which plants it effects.

I run a 8 site RDWC system with 1600w light. All plants are clones from the prior plant before going into bloom because I just run it perpetual.

temps-68-74f lights on
59-64f lights off

I run locus 2:1, 2 tblsp magi/cal, 1 tblsp beastie bloomz, per 36 gallons in the system start at 400ppm testing with a .5 conversion pen

let drift down to 300ppm before adding back just lucas

pH I set to 5.5 and let drift up to 6.0 every 6-7 days

I had thrips before bad but used a raid fumigator three separate times spaced about 3-4 wks apart. No pest on the plants from the naked eye.



any ideas or thoughts would be awesome.

Get a 60x -100x usb scoop.looks like bm or the rust fungas .does it rub off?try s h202 spary and rub the leaf with a paper towel.

ghostmade said:

Get a 60x -100x usb scoop.looks like bm or the rust fungas .does it rub off?try s h202 spary and rub the leaf with a paper towel.

Click to expand...

thanks a million man. I never heard of just thing and I am excited to look into this. I been researching this problem and all the people out there whom expereienced it report the same conditions I do.

I problem they cant figure out and have been dealing with for a long time.

I hope I can get to the bottom of this. I been at it to long, about time I catch a break.

thank you again!

calcium dude.

With 1600w of light those plants are going to want to grow big and those ppm seem pretty low especially the magi/cal. Two tbls per 36 gallons seems mighty low especially if you're using ro. It does look like a serious calcium deficiency like Mate Dave suggests.

tokinafaddy said:

With 1600w of light those plants are going to want to grow big and those ppm seem pretty low especially the magi/cal. Two tbls per 36 gallons seems mighty low especially if you're using ro. It does look like a serious calcium deficiency like Mate Dave suggests.

Click to expand...

appreciate the ques.

The calcium def is what I have been treating it as for a very long time, and the plants effected dont seem to respond whether I hit them heavy with a mag/cal supplement or without it.

I up the profile and then I see mild nutrient burn. Not to discredit anyones opinion but I am no longer handling this as a cal def because the amount of time I have already invested doing just that.

Im not trying to just write you off, I really appreciate the help, but I have been going it at as a cal def for over 12 months with no avail which brought me here.

Thanks for sure for helping out though. I respect that.

You may have more than just one thing going on to cause that but I would consider manganese a good possibility. Not enough somehow or too much maybe. Or an excess of another element causing uptake problems. Maybe ph doesn't allow uptake. Joe Fresh's guide in the infirmary has a couple charts showing manganese defeciency.

Bennyweed1 said:

59-64f lights off

Click to expand...

cold feet?

Bennyweed1 said:

Try to be as informative as possible.

Posted this in my actually journal but figured its more situated here.

These problem has been on and off for the past year or so on random plants, the pattern is never the same which plants it effects.

I run a 8 site RDWC system with 1600w light. All plants are clones from the prior plant before going into bloom because I just run it perpetual.

temps-68-74f lights on
59-64f lights off

I run locus 2:1, 2 tblsp magi/cal, 1 tblsp beastie bloomz, per 36 gallons in the system start at 400ppm testing with a .5 conversion pen

let drift down to 300ppm before adding back just lucas

pH I set to 5.5 and let drift up to 6.0 every 6-7 days

I had thrips before bad but used a raid fumigator three separate times spaced about 3-4 wks apart. No pest on the plants from the naked eye.

View Image

any ideas or thoughts would be awesome.

Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2v-8ctq5x4

krunchbubble said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2v-8ctq5x4

Click to expand...

lol ya man. Right on. I dig that. lol. got my laughing.

This Jack Flash is getting worse after dosing with a mag/cal supplement.





My buddy sprayed the plants with some pepper concoction when I was gone for 7 days. I came home and there are these white dust particles all over the plants he sprayed.

Flushed the reserv. and set it at 1 ec

dont do anything but bump total base ec to 1.2. stop putting in cali magic. nothing but base in your ec. til this gets settled, no boosters no nothing.
bump "light on" temp to 80 ish and humidify to 72ish
bump "light off" temp tp 72 ish and dehumidify to 65ish
also not a bad idea to be sure rez stays under 69 degrees.
i bet your issues go away.
or at least those.

how are your yields?i would say calcium but if its that bad it would be affecting your yield.its not on the new growth either.

59-64f lights off

Where is your thermometer located in the room? 59 at shoulder height could be 50 down on the floor. What's your rh? If it's random,you have no pests and a good base nute, then it's probably environment. I had random lockouts from cold root temps as well as too low rh. I put my pots up on milk crates and a tinyass heater in my room to get the lights off temps up and bingo- no more lockouts. Not saying this is your problem but it's something to consider. Goodluck.

Bennyweed1 said:

Try to be as informative as possible.

Click to expand...

That's right up my alley - discussing as much info as possible in these situations. You seem pretty open minded to considering different things as the source of this. And I am certainly not going to claim I know what is going on just from reading this thread and looking at a couple pics.

So, since it is about time for me to get out of a different thread in this forum before people get their panties in too much of wad over me there, I'll share, as are others, my initial thoughts.

Let me preface this also with I live in Colorado and have done a lot of indoor mountain growing. There are a lot of bug/fungus/etc. issues that I have not experienced and would never claim to be able to immediately identify on a leaf. Up here, the only pests in the growrooms are ones you bring in, so I have always been careful and have only dealt with mites, fungus gnats (cheap PPV mix) and PM. But I definitely agree with your researching that potential cause.

Kinda weird how it is a one plant thing that seems random on which plant. That is not very 'nute-like' in behavior, especially on a recirculating res, but certainly could be a pest thing or mold/fungus manifesting like that. Or some other environmental peculiarity you have like a chemical in the air, etc.

So, I am not at all eliminating something like that here. But back to your apparent open mindedness, I want to bring the Ca issue up again, maybe to have you re-evaluate the approach you took in trying to correct/eliminate that as a source of the problem.

If I understand correctly, you have spent multiple harvests and several months treating it as a Ca def by adding more Cal/Mag to the res. What I am suggesting you re-evaluate, given the specifics of your system and nute regime, is how you went about correcting the issue, and while one can have success correcting a Ca def doing that, it is not without cost. More importantly, in some cases, it can actually exacerbate the situation due to throwing off the element proportions and chemistry of the solution and creating a bit of a lock-out condition where there is more than enough Ca in the solution, but the plant is not able to exchange it.

You are setting your solution to 5.5, as plenty advice on the forums about RDWC says one must do. That is a myth. This pH chart I consider to be accurate relative to Swet Lady Jane. Look at what happens to Ca and Mg availability between 5.5-6.0. Now take a look at what is going on with availability of those two between 5.0-5.5:



If you genuinely have a Ca issue, my opinion of the best and correct way to deal with is not to change the make up of your nute solution, but to provide that same solution (but without any Cal/Mag) at a lower pH range, so that the Ca and Mg in the solution can actually be utilized efficiently.

It's been years since I mixed up a batch of the Lucas Formula and cannot remember where it starts exactly pH wise, but if that actually is a Ca def we are all looking at, that would be the best way to fix it - to start the res in the low 5s, let it rise from there, and dump it and start fresh once it starts going over 6. But, if you used pH Up to get to 5.5, don't add pH Down to the res - never add pH Up & Down to the same res.

The only one plant thing is weird - I personally cannot eliminate some environmental or pest issue with that piece of info (unless you are running multiple strains, in which case I would lean more to a nute issue). When is the last time you disinfected your system between crops with something like Physan 20? I keep a bottle of that in RDWC gardens. It is a disinfectant, fungicide, algaecide, and virucide. I have used it to save plants that got hit by root rot due to chiller issue, and can be run in your nutrient solution (not with organics, though).

I am not suggesting you change your nutrient routine on this crop. I am suggesting, however, that if this really is just a Ca def that is weirdly manifesting on one plant and ALSO due to your nutrient solution, adding more Cal/Mag did NOT eliminate the Ca def as a cause - it could have actually (it happens in some cases) made it worse, and it CERTAINLY had a negative effect upon the plants that didn't show this issue, if even minor.

Beyond that suggestion of re-evaluating your approach you used to eliminate a Ca issue, I can GAURANTEE you that if you modify your nute regiment, just a little bit, you will NEVER experience and Ca or Mg issue 95%+ of the strains out there (at least - only pure sativas or super, super heavy sativa pheno hybrids (pretty rare in gardens) are a bit different with nute regime needs).

A big thing you would need to be open minded about, however, is what the 'correct' pH range for RDWC, or any hydro is, DESPITE the volumes of posts you read on all the sites stating in needs to start at 5.5 or even higher.

My experiences show me that MJ strains do not differ in their need for Ca & Mg (claims form people that Strain X is a Ca whore and must have added Cal/Mag because it needs soooo much) anywhere near as much as some strains being more sensitive to the pH range in the rootzone and SUFFER more from never being exposed to the proper pH range, which begins in the low 5s. I again encourage people to evaluate the availability of nutrients at differnt pH in that chart and look real close at Ca and Mg between 5.5-6.0 and how POORLY MJ exchanges those elements in that range.

Starting about page 2 of the 'Stressed Plants ...' thread, you can find a bit more information about my thoughts on pH and Cal/Mag amongst the drama and information that doesn't apply to you. Peruse that thread if you wish.

For you, all you would need to do is buy a bottle of Grow and use GH's recommended dosage (strength cut for RDWC, obviously), or the ratios like 15G/10M/5B for veg, etc., that you will find on the forums and older posts. From there, throw away the Cal/Mag and pH Up. I've personally never used Beastie Bloom, but you certainly won't go wrong using a bloom booster from GH and some arguments that is better to do so. Add to that Dutch Master's Zone. This grows nice fat roots, plus it is an overall rootzone conditioner, plus it works great with GH 3-Part, plus it's a fuck of a lot cheaper than Roots Excel.

Mix that shit up. pH should be around 5.1-5.2. Perfect. Let her rip ...

Of course RDWC itself can grow some bean sprouts for roots. In this pic, however, some of the diameter and overall amount of them (that net pot is fuggin' packed with those, and that plant isn't that old and spent more time in E&F than in RDWC at that point) is absolutely and directly because of Zone (I am also a fan of DM's foilar products). That was a 24 site system running 24 different strains that were all Mothers. I cycled new plants into the system now and again, which is what this pic is. After cuttings got roots, they were thrown into an Ebb & Flow tray to get used to light and nutes (exact same pH and nute ratios in E&F (different strengths, obviously). So that plant was on 'In The Zone' for probably 7-10 days in E&F and then just in the RWDC for a few days when I took that pic. The roots in the pot you can't see and were in E&F are that big, too. Zone is good shit for multiple reasons and I do not run any grow without it, including 'dirt':



More info about the LF, and not just to ramble, but because a Ca def hasn't actually been ruled out from your approach like you are thinking you have (being clinical, not a douche here, lol) and because I have seen situations where Cal/Mag and then additional Cal/Mag has created a Ca def, despite what the Cal/Mag adder thinks should be happening.

I personally am not the biggest fan of the Lucas Formula. And in RDWC, I am even less of a fan as I think that system can really bring out the flaws I consider to exist in that regime. I don't know what you know about the background of it, but in the interest of being informative for those that don't, I'll lay it out real quick, as I am trying to remember, lol.

And you are not actually using the LF. The LF is ONLY GH M & B. Add anything to it, like Cal/Mag or a bloom booster, and you are no longer using the LF. Sounds petty, but Lucas was the one that always made that distinction, not me, lol.

First and foremost, I have nothing but props and respect for Lucas and his mentor pH. Lucas was awesome in his attempts to help people understand the 'formula', as well as sharing his knowledge about growing weed in general. The Lucas Formula actually came from a dude named pH, who arrived at his conclusions (what PPMs of what nutrients were actually necesssary and preferred by MJ) based largely off of a couple older books, many of his own crops and the input of other growers on a list (old school forum). They tracked harvest weight, nutes used, etc.

While the efforts at the time were awesome and to be applauded, some of the input used came from gardens of people who weren't experts, and since this was back in the 90's, some people were still using T8 shoplights, etc. Not Krusty Buckets, like you are (Krusty was the first real RDWC guy that became known on the scene and made people want to start using RDWC and vertical lighting).

I think with today's systems, the Lucas Formula doesn't work as smooth. Lucas was also big in making his 'formula' as CHEAP as possible. He does things like run one res for an entire crop cycle with only add backs so as not to 'waste' money.

GH obviously read the weed forums and pretty much bottled up the Lucas Formula, if you want to get real simple about it, but I always suggest anyone running Lucas to just get a bottle of Grow, too. I think it beneficial to be able to change your nutrient ratios between flower and bloom important in addition to it providing an overall better nutrient profile than the LF.

It is my opinion, from my experiences, that the ratios of each element in the Lucas Formula is just a tad off, and today's systems and growers can push a plant's metabolism indoors way more now than 15 years ago and I simply beleive that the actual data collected in the 90's in not as applicable as it once may have been to the average grow.

I sound like a broken record at times, but the very first thing I look for is your nute regime and the pH range you use. Yours could create some problems that would manifest as a Ca def.

I'm about due to split ICMAG for a while after a few day visit. Do with that info what you will ...

Cal/Mg don't work. It's 2 products that are no use with each other you must have a lab to do tests.

Unless the cellular status of calcium, magnesium or other essential trace elements is actually measured,it is nearly impossible to predict what effect supplementation will have on a plants mineral levels and ratios.

Calcium and magnesium ratios and mineral status, can vary over differing environments so there cannot be a fixed mineral ratio that is best for anyone, since there are just too many variables.

Some medias retain far too much calcium and are constantly struggling to meet magnesium requirements, while others suffer from magnesium overload and have to supplement larger amounts of calcium to overcome calcium deficiencies.

Mineral ratios are different between many cal/mag supplements and it varies from 1-1 all the way to 4-1 in favour of each mineral.