heavy 16 nutrients - Page 3 - Nutrients and Fertilizers - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

relic1981 · 03-07-2015, 02:25 AM

guess your not sold on it. lol. what do u run?

Only Ornamental · 03-07-2015, 09:02 AM

This and that... still using some no-name product if I need an addition to the organic fertiliser base but I'd like to change that. Either get something better adapted to my plants or mix it myself.
Apropos, I already mix everything else beyond base nutrients myself. Sometimes it's annoying but mostly it's fun, other times I don't know or care enough if this was now the perfect mix to use but at least I know exactly what my plants get.

Just take Heavy 16-Bud as an example. The description says [sic]:
"Cascading delivery of both organic and mineral Calcium and micronutrients
Natural and superior chelation through our ultra-fine proprietary mix of organic acids
Exotic trace mineral suite allowing for superior oil content and flavonoid expression"

Whyever they think it "cascade delivers"...
It's a nice touch to use for example different calcium salts but honestly, I don't see an advantage behind calcium chloride and calcium gluconate.
They also state "natural chelation" but on the product label list iron DTPA and iron EDDHA. Not saying these chelates aren't efficient but I don't like fully synthetic ones especially in products implying "natural" ingredients.
Also, that thing with "exotic trace minerals" is ridiculous. Somewhere they talk about 90+ different exotic minerals... if I add plain pottery clay to my soil, then I will likely add 90+ minerals with exotic names and different trace elements, both at way higher rates than can be included as clay in a liquid fertiliser. It's known for over hundred years (likely a lot longer but I haven't found any literature pre-dating that) that hemp grows best on clay-rich soil. This means, hemp/cannabis grown in good soil already has a high percentage of clay, adding a few mg with the watering will do nothing. If grown soillless, then adding minerals (minerals in a gemmology sense) is a very inefficient strategy even if it's fine clay particles.
And what should we do with "a superior oil content and flavonoid expression"? I'm not interested in oilseeds and flavonoids look nice but as long as they aren't eaten, they're quite useless regarding the plant in question.

That said, no, I'm absolutely not sold on that product line.

BubbaBear · 03-07-2015, 10:28 AM

OO....lol, of course a guy like you(highly intelligent)can easily pick apart there mumbojumbo sales pitch, I laugh when I read that too but just about all companies do that shit though and they need to compete with companies like AN that are the kings of that shit.

Its a pretty amazing base though l can tell you that. It doesn't need cal mag, it yields well and you dont need to adjust the PH, three key things that most bases lack. The Bud formula also works great in veg, l actually prefer there Bud formula for veg, there Grow formula makes my plants grow to rapidly and I cant keep up. The Bud also grows a more woody thicker stalked darker green plant. Its definitely the best base I've found, l will use other additives if l run out but always stick with there base. Its priced right to I pay $60 for a 10 liter, there additives can get expensive but there very concentrated you typically use them at 1-3 ml a gallon.

When there talking about being chelated by natural organic acids and the 90 trace minerals I think there just talking about fulvic and humic acids there formulas contain lots of those. I think they just use the calcium gluconate in there Foliar product which is a amazing product, I think its the calcium gluconate in it that gives it its sticky oily like texture that kills bugs and makes your leafs shiny its a great product tho its basicly a calcium and natural plant based carb supplement that pumps health into your plants and it protects your plants and makes your branches super strong yet rubbery not brital like silica can do plus it can be mixed with any other foliar. The bio clays they talk about is technology they borrowed from Bloombastic which is also a top notch product, l think its another way of adding calcium and or silica.

I just talked one of my friends into trying Fire but he grows some serious dank using nothing but there base. Fire is a amazing booster as well, its a all around booster not just a PK booster, you can use it in veg and it makes your plants start stacking up better and use it all the way through flower and you never need more than 3ml a gallon.

Just about any grower that trys them out sticks with them, there simple to use they yield great and produce top quality. If your looking for a naturally chelated salt base without the DTPA and EDDHA check out Humbolt nutrients Master A&B it works great in veg and bloom too and is amino chelated I used it for years before switch to heavy with great results.

Avenger · 03-07-2015, 03:30 PM

clay is used in liquid suspensions to help keep the insoluble from falling to the bottom.

but this is pretty dilute stuff compared to most polyphosphate suspension fertilizers.

stoned40yrs · 03-07-2015, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Only Ornamental

This and that... still using some no-name product if I need an addition to the organic fertiliser base but I'd like to change that. Either get something better adapted to my plants or mix it myself.
Apropos, I already mix everything else beyond base nutrients myself. Sometimes it's annoying but mostly it's fun, other times I don't know or care enough if this was now the perfect mix to use but at least I know exactly what my plants get.

Just take Heavy 16-Bud as an example. The description says [sic]:
"Cascading delivery of both organic and mineral Calcium and micronutrients
Natural and superior chelation through our ultra-fine proprietary mix of organic acids
Exotic trace mineral suite allowing for superior oil content and flavonoid expression"

Whyever they think it "cascade delivers"...
It's a nice touch to use for example different calcium salts but honestly, I don't see an advantage behind calcium chloride and calcium gluconate.
They also state "natural chelation" but on the product label list iron DTPA and iron EDDHA. Not saying these chelates aren't efficient but I don't like fully synthetic ones especially in products implying "natural" ingredients.
Also, that thing with "exotic trace minerals" is ridiculous. Somewhere they talk about 90+ different exotic minerals... if I add plain pottery clay to my soil, then I will likely add 90+ minerals with exotic names and different trace elements, both at way higher rates than can be included as clay in a liquid fertiliser. It's known for over hundred years (likely a lot longer but I haven't found any literature pre-dating that) that hemp grows best on clay-rich soil. This means, hemp/cannabis grown in good soil already has a high percentage of clay, adding a few mg with the watering will do nothing. If grown soillless, then adding minerals (minerals in a gemmology sense) is a very inefficient strategy even if it's fine clay particles.
And what should we do with "a superior oil content and flavonoid expression"? I'm not interested in oilseeds and flavonoids look nice but as long as they aren't eaten, they're quite useless regarding the plant in question.

That said, no, I'm absolutely not sold on that product line.

You are my new Super Hero. You can rip all the nute companies and products in a language I can only partially understand.

Only Ornamental · 03-07-2015, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoned40yrs

You are my new Super Hero. You can rip all the nute companies and products in a language I can only partially understand.

You and BubbaBear are prolly right, most hydro companies are likely the same when it comes to marketing and a good sales pitch. Me on the other hand... I wonder who would buy stuff for which I wrote the label; the insert might take more space than the actual product.

At least, this time my language wasn't too spaced out. After all, you got that I'm not hyping them up...

But back to topic: Anyone an idea why they (Heavy 16) add iron and molybdenum but no other micro-nutrients to their products? Or are these covered by the added clay (which would be somewhat astonishing, but you never know)?

BubbaBear · 03-07-2015, 11:08 PM

I just know the list of ingredients on the bottles are worthless, they intentionally leave them as vague as possible and just list whats required by law just like all the other companies are doing, l think its partially to protect the formulas and mostly because its become a huge and expensive headache to register your products here in the states, each state has its own requirements for labeling and such.

Only Ornamental · 03-08-2015, 08:27 AM

That sounds awful... do the States the same with food, cosmetics, and the like too?
Why not simply demand that everything has to be listed?
IMHO if everything except the % (or absolute amounts) aren't listed, a sophisticated product is protected and unique enough. If everyone does it, all will be in the same boat but I guess it's not the hydro industry fighting such transparency and honesty but the big five Dow, BASF, Roche, Syngenta, and Monsanto.
It's obvious that such a public display of 'secret ingredients' didn't stop the cosmetics industries from selling hopes and dreams instead of beauty and youth.

BubbaBear · 03-09-2015, 01:43 AM

No as far as l know they don't most things are registered and labeled at a national level, each state has there own agricultural department l suppose it has something to do with that, l really dont know exactly maybe someone that knows more than me can chime in, one thing l know its a old out dated system that needs work. I do know California and Oregon are two of the hardest states to register products with thats why a lot of nutrient companies websites will ask what area your from, like on Heavy16.com it asks if u are from Oregon or California or other places, always select other places it gives you way more product info.

Huckster79 · 03-10-2016, 06:45 AM

I'm a noob and have had amazing luck with it. First run base only w some kelp and cal mag and things went great. In fourth week of flower on my second run and got the full line minus roots... Amazing they are beyond beutiful... As for the foliar... You can see a difference in the plant within hours...

Does anyone know what about prime makes it ok to not ph? I have t been and it must work cuz they are happy... Just curious as to the why of that...

03-07-2015, 02:25 AM	#21
relic1981 Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: emerald triangle... heaven is in the 707 Posts: 884	guess your not sold on it. lol. what do u run? __________________ TRUE KARMA gotta give to receive current medical grow: gsc forum cut, 303 kush, platinum og, herijuana og, sour bubble, loompa's HB and purple urkle under 10 1k lights scrog set up, 3 gallon grow backs with house and garden coco (best coco i have found yet (humboldt flower company's royal gold coco is a close 2nd. i use there basement mix with great results but the house and garden coco is the best i have seen, blows canna away) averaging 1.1 grams per watt in coco with house and garden full line. full strength 0.9 g/w using heavy 16 full line at full strength in coco (house and garden loose coco or Humboldt flower co's royal gold basement mix) overgrow the government. Legit 215 patient, cannabis enthusiast, advocate, care taker and connoisseur. Founder and Directer of Lost Coast Patient Sharing Program.
	Quote

03-07-2015, 09:02 AM	#22
Only Ornamental Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Somewhere in Central Europe Posts: 2,388	This and that... still using some no-name product if I need an addition to the organic fertiliser base but I'd like to change that. Either get something better adapted to my plants or mix it myself. Apropos, I already mix everything else beyond base nutrients myself. Sometimes it's annoying but mostly it's fun, other times I don't know or care enough if this was now the perfect mix to use but at least I know exactly what my plants get. Just take Heavy 16-Bud as an example. The description says [sic]: "Cascading delivery of both organic and mineral Calcium and micronutrients Natural and superior chelation through our ultra-fine proprietary mix of organic acids Exotic trace mineral suite allowing for superior oil content and flavonoid expression" Whyever they think it "cascade delivers"... It's a nice touch to use for example different calcium salts but honestly, I don't see an advantage behind calcium chloride and calcium gluconate. They also state "natural chelation" but on the product label list iron DTPA and iron EDDHA. Not saying these chelates aren't efficient but I don't like fully synthetic ones especially in products implying "natural" ingredients. Also, that thing with "exotic trace minerals" is ridiculous. Somewhere they talk about 90+ different exotic minerals... if I add plain pottery clay to my soil, then I will likely add 90+ minerals with exotic names and different trace elements, both at way higher rates than can be included as clay in a liquid fertiliser. It's known for over hundred years (likely a lot longer but I haven't found any literature pre-dating that) that hemp grows best on clay-rich soil. This means, hemp/cannabis grown in good soil already has a high percentage of clay, adding a few mg with the watering will do nothing. If grown soillless, then adding minerals (minerals in a gemmology sense) is a very inefficient strategy even if it's fine clay particles. And what should we do with "a superior oil content and flavonoid expression"? I'm not interested in oilseeds and flavonoids look nice but as long as they aren't eaten, they're quite useless regarding the plant in question. That said, no, I'm absolutely not sold on that product line. __________________ Growing only for ornamental reasons and because... The hemp seed hub: A thread for those who seek seeds and info on hemp, click HERE Please spare a 'like', a dear friend of mine could need some motivation. Thanks! Brainer on Retainer: Why not rent a brain by the hour? OO now on time-sharing
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

03-07-2015, 10:28 AM	#23
BubbaBear Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 378	OO....lol, of course a guy like you(highly intelligent)can easily pick apart there mumbojumbo sales pitch, I laugh when I read that too but just about all companies do that shit though and they need to compete with companies like AN that are the kings of that shit. Its a pretty amazing base though l can tell you that. It doesn't need cal mag, it yields well and you dont need to adjust the PH, three key things that most bases lack. The Bud formula also works great in veg, l actually prefer there Bud formula for veg, there Grow formula makes my plants grow to rapidly and I cant keep up. The Bud also grows a more woody thicker stalked darker green plant. Its definitely the best base I've found, l will use other additives if l run out but always stick with there base. Its priced right to I pay $60 for a 10 liter, there additives can get expensive but there very concentrated you typically use them at 1-3 ml a gallon. When there talking about being chelated by natural organic acids and the 90 trace minerals I think there just talking about fulvic and humic acids there formulas contain lots of those. I think they just use the calcium gluconate in there Foliar product which is a amazing product, I think its the calcium gluconate in it that gives it its sticky oily like texture that kills bugs and makes your leafs shiny its a great product tho its basicly a calcium and natural plant based carb supplement that pumps health into your plants and it protects your plants and makes your branches super strong yet rubbery not brital like silica can do plus it can be mixed with any other foliar. The bio clays they talk about is technology they borrowed from Bloombastic which is also a top notch product, l think its another way of adding calcium and or silica. I just talked one of my friends into trying Fire but he grows some serious dank using nothing but there base. Fire is a amazing booster as well, its a all around booster not just a PK booster, you can use it in veg and it makes your plants start stacking up better and use it all the way through flower and you never need more than 3ml a gallon. Just about any grower that trys them out sticks with them, there simple to use they yield great and produce top quality. If your looking for a naturally chelated salt base without the DTPA and EDDHA check out Humbolt nutrients Master A&B it works great in veg and bloom too and is amino chelated I used it for years before switch to heavy with great results.
	Quote 3 members found this post helpful.

03-07-2015, 03:30 PM	#24
Avenger Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: on top of the world Posts: 683	clay is used in liquid suspensions to help keep the insoluble from falling to the bottom. but this is pretty dilute stuff compared to most polyphosphate suspension fertilizers. __________________ Comparison of Plant Available Silicon in fertilizer sources.
	Quote

03-07-2015, 11:08 PM	#27
BubbaBear Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 378	I just know the list of ingredients on the bottles are worthless, they intentionally leave them as vague as possible and just list whats required by law just like all the other companies are doing, l think its partially to protect the formulas and mostly because its become a huge and expensive headache to register your products here in the states, each state has its own requirements for labeling and such.
	Quote 1 members found this post helpful.

03-08-2015, 08:27 AM	#28
Only Ornamental Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Somewhere in Central Europe Posts: 2,388	That sounds awful... do the States the same with food, cosmetics, and the like too? Why not simply demand that everything has to be listed? IMHO if everything except the % (or absolute amounts) aren't listed, a sophisticated product is protected and unique enough. If everyone does it, all will be in the same boat but I guess it's not the hydro industry fighting such transparency and honesty but the big five Dow, BASF, Roche, Syngenta, and Monsanto. It's obvious that such a public display of 'secret ingredients' didn't stop the cosmetics industries from selling hopes and dreams instead of beauty and youth. __________________ Growing only for ornamental reasons and because... The hemp seed hub: A thread for those who seek seeds and info on hemp, click HERE Please spare a 'like', a dear friend of mine could need some motivation. Thanks! Brainer on Retainer: Why not rent a brain by the hour? OO now on time-sharing
	Quote

03-09-2015, 01:43 AM	#29
BubbaBear Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 378	No as far as l know they don't most things are registered and labeled at a national level, each state has there own agricultural department l suppose it has something to do with that, l really dont know exactly maybe someone that knows more than me can chime in, one thing l know its a old out dated system that needs work. I do know California and Oregon are two of the hardest states to register products with thats why a lot of nutrient companies websites will ask what area your from, like on Heavy16.com it asks if u are from Oregon or California or other places, always select other places it gives you way more product info.
	Quote

03-10-2016, 06:45 AM	#30
Huckster79 Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: A little box made out of ticky tacky Posts: 424	I'm a noob and have had amazing luck with it. First run base only w some kelp and cal mag and things went great. In fourth week of flower on my second run and got the full line minus roots... Amazing they are beyond beutiful... As for the foliar... You can see a difference in the plant within hours... Does anyone know what about prime makes it ok to not ph? I have t been and it must work cuz they are happy... Just curious as to the why of that...
	Quote